Shaun Groves
I’m at a crossroads in my musical career. My number one goal is to get kids sponsored through Compassion International. When I speak to a group of people about Compassion International no less than five percent of the crowd will sponsor one child. Usually the percentage is between ten and fifteen and goes as high as twenty at times, but definitely doesn’t dip below five. This makes me a more potent mobilization tool at the moment than traditional advertising tools like magazine ads or radio spots.
But like traditional advertising tools this success is dependent upon the existence of listeners, the number of folks actually tuned in. Radio ads don’t work because few people listen to them. We don’t listen to the radio to hear ads, we listen to hear music. So when someone stops the music to sell us a car or tell us about a “sponsor” we grab that knob and turn until we find what we’re listening for again: music. Same is true of magazine ads. I tear them all out as soon as I unwrap WIRED magazine each month. I don’t buy magazines to read ads.
Here’s a good example of how traditional advertising doesn’t work anymore. We took out an ad in a great magazine read by worship pastors several months ago. Full page. Full color. A picture of me and my sponsor child. On the opposite page was an article I wrote on the topic of compassion. Looked great. Well done. The ad told worship pastors they could book me for free if they’d let me talk about Compassion International for a few minutes at the concert. Contact info was given clearly in the ad. The magazine had a circulation of 50,000. I thought the phone would ring off the hook.
It didn’t.
We got two calls from that ad. TWO CALLS out of 50,000 subscribers. Even great ads in great magazines don’t work so well anymore.
But we made the same appeal in a far less attractive, less colorful, less targeted way here on SHLOG.COM in a post around the same time. One post read by 500 to 1000 of you. And you, SHLOG readers, spread the word about the free booking deal and – BAM! – we booked months of concerts in a matter of days. The blog worked. The magazine did not.
So if my blogging, my speaking and my music works in mobilizing Christians to care about the things Jesus cares about, the question then becomes how can we continue to be good stewards of that influence, to get the most out of it, to build upon it for the sake of kids o=in the third world?
Ad this has lead me to another question whose answer will greatly impact what I do next: If I’m going to continue to be an effective walking talking advertisement for Compassion International and, more importantly, for a brand of Christianity that demands imitating Christ and not just believing in Him, must I have a large audience? Would a larger audience help? If so, are there limits to what I should do to get one?
Is a larger audience good for me good for the children?
Yes: I should make a record that is right up the middle of what Christian radio wants (whatever that is) so that I can get airplay, my face on magazines, Dove awards, sell lots more records and have better attended shows. I should not write about hard subjects like justice and poverty which matter to me. Instead I should attract an audience that hasn’t pondered these subjects and then, once they read my blog or attend my shows, expose them to these ideas. The music is bait. All this must happen so that I can expose the largest number of people possible (people who have not yet been exposed) to Compassion International and to a more missional approach to being a Christian and, in the end, this will rescue more children from poverty.
No: I should make music I like, that I think is good, whether or not it increases or decreases my platform, crowd size, popularity, readership etc. I should write about things that matter to me even if doing so mostly attracts an audience that is already convinced those things matter. Instead exposing the unexposed to new “missional” ideas I should be a cheerleader for those who already think missionally and ask them to spread the word about Compassion International, therefore rescuing more children from poverty.
Welcome to my brain folks. It ain’t pretty. It’s self-absorbed, analytical to an extreme, and paralyzingly concerned about the ripple effect of every decision.
Got thoughts? I’m listening.
Shaun Groves says:
It should be clear by now that I like Derek Webb. Keep that in mind as you read this comment. And may his fans not stone me.
Derek is preaching to the choir. He writes about justice, war, the collision of faith and politics, peace, poverty etc. Things I care about.
Thing is, people who care about these things are mostly the ones listening to his music.
The Christian who loves God and loves people but has never pondered what this war does to children or whether it’s just isn’t listening to Derek’s music.
The college student who prayers the prayer of Jabez daily and believes that God will give them material possessions for doing so faithfully is listening to Derek Webb.
Generally speaking.
But I wish they were. He has some wonderful, creative, truthful and inspiring things to say to them. But they aren’t. It’s like putting an ad for ESPN on ESPN. I don’t get why they do that? They’re asking people to watch who are already watching.
Derek is, to a large degree I believe, writing about subjects his audience is already informed about. Sure, he presents them in new ways, takes them a bit further or in different directions at times than his listeners may. But mostly, it’s preaching to the choir.
It has value in that his work inspires them I think – it inspires me – continue caring about these subjects and gives us vocabulary with which to talk about them with others but you get my point I hope.
This post of mine is essentially pondering whether or not it’s best for the kids I want to rescue for me to be another Derek Webb (though I could never replicate what he does exactly) or for me to be the guy who writes radio its again…that’s assuming God works some miracle and gets me on the very radio stations I’ve criticized publicly for being, among other things, profanely positive.
Derek Webb or Welcome Home? That is the question.
Shaun Groves says:
One more bit of data to chew on while you think through this with me:
The difference between the Welcome Home era of my career an the present day is 800-1000 people at a concert versus 50-300 at a concert.
Do the math and that’s 40-50 kids sponsored every night versus 3-15 kids.
Assuming the Welcome Home crowd would be as receptive to the appeal to sponsor a child as my present crowds are.
Ross says:
What is Rebecca St. James’ ‘’closing ratio’’ on Compassion sponsorships? I’ve heard her on the radio once or twice.
keith says:
This is probably imfeasible for one person, but you could do both with an alter ego, kind of like a super hero. As Shaun Groves, you could write music for radio and expand your audience. On the side, you could form a band of like-minded musicians that will help you write and perform music “that matters.” You could call the band “Shlog” or something more subtle like “The Polyester Jellyfish Explosion” and not market the band as Shaun’s band. Maybe you wouldn’t even be the front man, just the keyboard or platic-comb-wrapped-in-paper player. This would cater to the audience you already have and continue to encourage them to get the word out about rescuing children.
jeff says:
go with the ‘no’ option. play songs that are hard and don’t get airplay. don’t sell out. because of the work you are doing and the opportunity i have to follow it via your blog, i have told countless people about the work that you are doing to change the face of compassion and the christian music industry.
we need people like you and derek in order to keep hope alive that the christian music industry is not just a bunch of sell-outs.
i hope we can continue this conversation this weekend when i come to see you in anaheim. my wife and i are hoping to have dinner with you and brody. ask him about it. i haven’t seen the dude in 8 years, but follow his blog and your trip together, i feel like we see each other all of the time.
what you do is crucial and i think really setting the bar for what more artists need to do.
Chris Morris says:
So … you want to cater more to Becky because you believe Becky is waiting to help sponsor children? Your math may not be as linear as you think.
Tracy says:
OK, maybe I am crazy, but didn’t you answer your question? If your number one goal is getting kids sponsored, and that’s what God has called you to do, then that’s the answer. Get the people there!!!! But, is there a 3rd option, one in the middle of “selling out” and being independent?
Let me speak from your past. When you were at St. Marks, I can promise that many of those folks had no idea who you were. I would venture to say that about the majority of them. However, something about what you said resonated and got kids sponsored. And, it is still resonating. People approach me daily for more information about Compassion and about Shaun Groves. It has been amazing, the conversations that have happened.
So, can’t you combine the “sell out” songs and the more hard-hitting lyrics? I think you are doing that pretty well now. “Jesus” really touched people and didn’t spark nearly the controversy that I thought it would. Quite the opposite, in fact.
And, your message is not only in your lyrics. Don’t underestimate your speaking ability and comfort in that area. It is your openness and approachability that make it easier to hear the cold, hard facts.
Just to play the other side, here. Was it really all that bad when your Mom put you medicine in a spoonful of applesauce so you didn’t realize you were swallowing the big pill? You had no idea the affect that would have on you. You just knew you liked the applesauce and that made the rest OK. Is it really wrong to offer a “simpler” lyric as bait? Isn’t that what retail does with a sales price? Isn’t that what you do when you offer a free CD to anyone who sponsors a child that pays that night?
Here’s the thing. . .you can’t sell a false bill of goods. We have a tendency to do that sometimes in the church. But, if someone hears your song and likes it (melody or lyrics), isn’t that what they are getting more of at the concert? Just because some of the songs may be more challenging. . .GREAT! What’s wrong with making people think? They still got to hear music they liked.
The hard part about getting advice on your blog is that most of us are probably like-minded. We don’t want you to “sell out.” What has made me think about that, though, is the response our church had (is having) to your music and message. I don’t know. . . did I just muddy it all up even more for you?
jeff says:
i like keith’s answer way better than my original response.
shaunfan says:
Shaun, you are asking a very relevant question at this point of your career. While I respect Derek Webb as well, I don’t like his music as much as I like yours (not even close). I also agree with you that if you try to write songs about hard subjects, you’ll just be doing what he is already doing. Also, he set out to make that kind of music (Prayer of Jabez driven).
You on the other hand have had radio success, I found you because of Welcome Home and I haved loved everything you’ve done since even though your sales have declined and you get less radio airplay than before.
I’ve compared Aaron Shust to you and even though he didn’t sell out, he writes songs from his heart about his love for God which are catchy and get on the radio. His new CD came out yesterday and I bought it without ever hearing a single track. If he comes in concert, he’ll draw over 1,000 easily which then gives him the platform to give the gospel.
So, I’m firmly in the YES camp. You are too talented to worry about only making message-music. You make message music which is radio-friendly already. The only tweak would be to add some more guitar riffs (like Leeland, Sanctus Real) and I see trends in music favoring you getting on the radio like Aaron Shust and Bebo Norman, even to a lesser extent, Jeremy Camp. None of them were popular when Welcome Home came out and now all 3 are at the top of their career. You could have (and have) written songs that rival the best songs they have released. I hear parallels with “Blank Page” and “Let It Fade” for example. The only difference is timing (and marketing).
I view you getting bigger audiences and radio airplay the same way you do, which is it helps you save more kids from poverty. Thanks for asking us.
Kevin
Grovesfan says:
I don’t think it’s selling out to try to do something that in the end, has the potential to help untold numbers of children. Not to mention the blessings that come from being a sponsor. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think you’re exploring the idea of writing music that lacks truth or integrity. Maybe it’s not as deep or thought provoking, but that doesn’t necessarily make it wrong. I for one like “Welcome Home.” Maybe I listen closer than some, I don’t know. It paints an excellent picture for me. “Sad Song” and “Heaven Hang On” do too, but they won’t get airplay.
I think all the recent posts, etc. about what gets played on the radio and why, and the “Becky’s”, etc. has put a bit of a negative spin on Christian music. “Becky” NOT a bad person, a shallow person, one who lacks substance, etc. Many “Becky’s” do sponsor children through Compassion. It’s easy to jump on the band wagon. I know, I do it well. Just because something gets played on Christian radio (whatever format it may be) doesn’t mean it’s bad or lacks substance, or is untrue in someway. Your first cd did very well in the radio world and it doesn’t lack anything. It’s different than your others, but that doesn’t make it less.
The old adage that “it takes money to make money” is true sometimes. Using your God-given talent to write what will get airplay and make people think too is not only right, but I think will further the Kingdom. Isn’t that what it’s all about? You are saving children Shaun, and introducing others to the blessings of sponsorship. Don’t ever think you’re selling out in doing that. Your sponsored child would never consider you a sell out.
You need to seriously question your motives for the decisions you’re making. Are your motives to gain back what you had with ITE; the bigger house, the better car, more clothes, etc.? I don’t think so. It’s not in you to be that way. You’ve already discovered that or you wouldn’t be living where you are and driving what you do. If you’ve honestly questioned your motives, come up with the answers, even the tough ones, and God says “OK Shaun, you are furthering my kingdom”, then what else is there? Of course it’s easy for me to sit here and spout all kinds of “wisdom”, etc. because I’m not the one faced with these decisions.
Look at that hand print on your fridge. Tell me it’s selling out to do what it takes to keep that hand print there, getting bigger every year, holding another hand that’s been rescued along the way. If that’s selling out, then stop. If it’s not, then get busy writing whatever it is that’s going to keep it there.
Beth
Kat says:
A fun discussion, but I think you know you won’t find your answer here.
I think both options have validity, but I’m neither in the “YES” camp or the “NO” camp.
I’m officially in the GAGBHBADYFTIA (Go-ask-God-because-He’s-better at-determining-your future-than-I-am) camp.
Now that my official affiliation is out of the way, my unofficial affiliation is in the “no” camp.
Cali Amy says:
I think there is value in listening to God’s people.
Your goal is to get kids sponsored. IF that is your end goal, I suppose the yes camp makes the most sense. You will reach a wider audience. But if you want to get kids sponsored and retain artistic integrity, than I think the no camp. It makes me shudder to think you will be trying to figure out what everyone else wants in order to reach them with the message of sponorship. Having a large audience doesn’t always equal more response.
You’ve cultivated a very loyal following here. Why not ask us what difference your blog and music have already made? I am glad to tell you that I sponsor multiple children without ever having been to one of your shows, but from coming here. You’ve challenged me on many issues since way back in the old message board days. I think it’s easy to think that the music will bring the audience, but actually God is the one briging the audience. He is handpicking the people He wants to be changed by your message, and I think He will bring them to you, no matter path you go down.
Having said all of that…I vote no. (if you couldn’t already tell!)
Matthew Nashville, TN says:
Shaun,
I love the honesty….its why I keep coming back to your blog…I really believe that if God is putting it on your heart to just lay it all on the line and go after as many sponsorships for Compassion children as possible, then you should do it…I for one would love to hear you on the radio again…When ITE first hit, I was ecstatic…that wasn’t sell out music to me…”Welcome Home” had more substance to it than anything I’d heard on christian radio in a decade…and when the singles kept coming, I thought it was great because the songs had meaning and were sincere…you can make more of that music…heck, I still think that “Twilight” and “One Of Those Days” from the second album would have done great at radio if they’d seen the light of day…
My thing would be, if you were going to go for this…I’d imagine some kind of label would be involved…and I think you’d have to get someone on board who is willing to give you creative control and let you be “Shaun”,and who is on board with your mission from the word “go”…and you’d have to find a way to not get bogged down in all the demands of being a signed artist, because they may take you off your focus…To be effective, your career would have to be as synonymous with the cause and it is with the music…and I think its intersting to brainstorm ideas on how to make that work…
Musically, I think about it this way…and this wont fit exactly because of cultural things and what not…but it kind of like this…The early Beatles were the most successful commercial music force on the planet…the songs were all 3:00 tops..they were catchy as all get out, had melodic goodness oozing out of them..( i once heard john lennon ( or maybe it was paul) in an interview say that he and paul in their early songwriting days wouldnt write their ideas down on paper…they figured if it it wasnt hooky enough for them to remember, it wasnt worth working on it…) In a few short years,those songs were as big a commercial success as its gets I imagine…what it did though to me, is it helped them earn credibility with their audience and earn the right to speak into the lives to their listeners…and when they had enough of the hit machine…they took a break…and then WHAM…hit them with Sgt. Pepper…and the Sgt. Pepper Beatles are the ones we know for being just amazingly revoluntionary and raising cultural issues, and for re-defining what pop music was…the music was still great…just different…and their fans followed…maybe some commerical type music would help you build up listeners, and you get your foot in the door…and then see if that gives you the chance then to speak some truth in a big, big way…to the folks who really need to hear it…
this might all be crazy talk…i feel like im rambling…but to me, it makes some sense Shaun…for whatever its worth, there it is….
Loren says:
more people = more sponsorships = more money (a vicious cycle)
go for broke… 1 album 10 singles, 10 different markets. Put that composition degree to good work!!!!
1. Childrens (you can out write the Wiggles?!?)
2. Latin (throw on the polka loop and translate)
3. CCM (it all sounds the same, just change your words)
4. CCM (it all sounds the same, just change your words)
5. Country ( I think I’ve read posts about a family dog or the Cul-De-Sac)(Don’t know if French and Country are Kosher)
6. R & B … featuring Brody
7. Alternative – Just take a track from White Flag
8. American Idol – You NEED a duet with someone from the show
9. Gospel – Doesn’t Bill Gaither live near You?
10. Bubble Gum – Get on those sit-ups
Everyone(who works anyways) sells out everyday save some kids and have some fun along the way
Mark says:
I see Tracy already beat me to the punch.
Why is this an either or proposition? Can’t you do both? Even on the same CD?
Grovesfan says:
I’m still wondering why everyone seems to think that making music “fit” for radio is selling out. Your music hasn’t been compromising yet, so why do you or anyone else think that it will have to be now in order to make money?
Beth
Cali Amy says:
I could be wrong, but not a lot of Shaun’s recent stuff has made it on the radio. So you’d have to go back to Invitation to Eavesdrop era (which is fantastic of course) and hope that something like that will make it on the radio in right now. A big plus in Shaun’s favor, of course, is that he’s male.
Thomas says:
Shaun,
There has to be a way to do an album that has some songs with hard hitting truthful lyrics while also having songs with soft hitting truthful lyrics that radio will be willing to play. The thing is if you think you are selling out, do you think that you will make an album that you would want to have your name associated with? If your heart is not in the project would you be willing to spend the time to make it a great album? These are the questions you need to answer before you can move forwards.
Thomas
FancyPants says:
I guess I would answer your question with more questions (not necessarily for you to answer here):
1) Does radio play equal a label for you?
2) Will a label make you miserable, or can you find the right one? Or has the right one found you? =-)
3) When you wrote a while back about being happy, did that have anything to do with where you are in your career right now?
I think you will be the most effective when you feel “right” about where you are. The number of Compassion sponsorships might increase with radio play, but honestly, I wouldn’t let the numbers answer this question for you. I don’t know you well, but from what I see, your integrity of artistry is very important to who you are, and that affects your entire life, and might very well affect your message from the stage and from this blog, your relationship with your family, and your relationship with God. And then again, maybe not.
If you have that integrity and peace and joy, and again, this is something only you can answer, while on the radio, then sweet! Radio is GREAT! If not, that’s OK, too. God will use who you are and what you offer in the perfect way.
cptcrayon says:
Remember that time is part of the equation too. On the one side, this may be your chance to spread the word about compassion to a ton of people, and on the other, it may be a chance to plant ideas with a few for the future. Today’s seeds are tomorrow’s trees.\\\.Derek isn’t only preaching to the choir, he’s preaching to tomorrow.\\\.Just a thought.
Of course, the fact that this is such urgent work makes it kinda tough for you.
-cptcrayon
Ted says:
Shaun,
I’ve lurked here on your blog for many months but have never commented. Reading your SHLOG has been very refreshing. Never have I encountered a medium where the “heart” of an artist is put on display in such a manner. I’ve enjoyed “getting to know you” through your comments, thoughts, and video clips as you present them here.
All that said, I enjoyed this post more than any other that I’ve read in the last several months. Even though I know being a Christian Music artist is a calling from God, I guess I always expected that deep down it feels as much like a “business” as my own job (i.e. record sales, advertising, promotion, achieving results, etc). Hearing your “heart” in this post and getting a glimpse of how you process making decisions based on how you hope to minister to the world really resonates with me. I admire you for being an artist who is willing to wrestle with such decisions. It makes me think in my own job, which is much more of a business, I have a great responsibility to wrestle with my own questions of how I can make my work a ministry as well (i.e. through the relationships I have with my co-workers). Thank you for the inspiring comments. We should all take our life’s work as seriously.
Tim Glenn says:
Well, the nice thing is you have the luxury now. You have established yourself as an artist, so you have the luxury of deciding whether you want to write about the things that move you…as opposed to the things that sell records.
As an indie artist, I chose years ago to write about things that Christians encounter in this world on a daily basis. Not all the songs are pretty.
Few of them would ever be played on the radio…but I write about what I feel I’m called to write about…being a christian in the real world.
Consider yourself blessed, Shaun, that you have this opportunity before you.
I know you’ll end up going where God leads you.
Aims says:
Is a larger audience better for you and the Compassion kids?
It depends on your audience. You’ll have some people in your audience that you tell a sob story to and they’ll sponsor a child hands down. Other’s you can tell the saddest story every and it won’t move them. Is the audience better for you? Maybe, maybe not. If you get a lot of people coming to your concerts you get a lot of people telling you how great you are. Then suddenly you get the ego and the big head. Suddenly one day you’re not so worried about what you used to be worried about. You’re not fighting for the causes you used to fight for. Sure there are a few tiny cases where people won’t be effected but most are. Keep doing what you’re doing. True it’s good to have big audiences that say they love what you love but do they really? Honestly, simply because they sponsor a child does that mean that they care about saving the lives of children like you do? So you have to ask what kind of audience am I going to attract? Then ask yourself if I attract the kind of audience I want will that change who I am in the future? You can’t simply expect to have one big huge night where you could save a whole country of kids. It’s a gradual thing and children will die in the mean time but that’s what we we’re shooting for as a human race right? Total inhalation of our own kind.
Laurie Marks Vincent says:
Hey Shaun,
I’m writing an article for “More Radio”. Your talking about the same thing– selling out to just get airplay. I like what you have to say about getting sponsorship for Compassion kids. I”m currently doing research for the article. Can I get an interview from you– sorry to use your blog for this but I tried your fanmail email and haven’t heard from you. We’re working on a Compassion Event here in Canada and would like to include you. Seems contact with your agency wasn’t working either at the time.
Shaun Groves says:
Wow, Laurie, I have no e-,mails from you anywhere. I guess that patriot act thing is doing a good job keeping you dangerous Canadians out of our inboxes. Seriously, I’d love to talk. E-mail me again with a few days and times that work for you and a number to call and we’ll make this happen.
Thanks.
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Laurie Marks Vincent says:
Hey Shaun
It’s Laurie again. I found your responses in my junk box today– go figure! Just so you know, I just emailed you. If, for some strange and mysterious reason you don’t get the email… here’s my office number. During the day you can call anytime Monday to Friday 519-668-2517
Laurie
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