Shaun Groves
In light of yesterday’s post (and the very helpful comments) I thought this would be interesting to some of you.
I was asked yesterday, after doing what’s called a “teaching concert” here at Estes Park, why I sign autographs. The questioner’s logic went like this: If you sign an autograph you’re saying your signature is worth something and that’s arrogant. I think you could also argue that it’s “celebrity,” one unhealthy step beyond simple “fame.”
So I explained. Years ago, seven to be exact, when I first started making music for a living, I wouldn’t sign autographs. And you know what? Some Christians asked me, Why don’t you sign autographs? The questioners’ logic went like this: If you don’t sign autographs you must think you’re too good for it and that’s arrogant. I think you could argue it’s acting like a “celebrity”, one unhealthy step beyond “fame.”
So what I started doing was signing autographs to please the latter group but writing under my scribble “IS. 26:8” to fend off the former group. Isaiah 26:8 says that what we should desire more than anything is the fame of God. People get my scribble but also a disclaimer reminding us both of the preeminence of God’s renown.
Of course this clever side-step of mine seems to please everyone but me. I sat at a long table of artists last night after our show to save children from poverty and signed t-shirts and CDs for an hour. One giggly girl and stammering guy after another, with the occasional “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe it’s you!” No amount of clever rationalization will ever make that comfortable for me.
But because you guys seem pretty clever, especially in the comments to yesterday’s post, I’m wondering what you’d do if you soft rocked in my shoes. What would you do after the show? What would you do if someone wanted their picture made with you, wanted you to sign their child or their arm or their CD? What would you do if they shrieked and trembled at shaking your hand?
It’s easy to spout philosophy on fame and celebrity, to draw lines about what is healthy and unhealthy, but it’s much harder for me to figure out what to do in the moment when I realize I’m being treated like a celebrity. What would you do?
shaunfan says:
Focusing on the word famous which is what makes people want your autograph and picture, Switchfoot’s song “New Way To Be Human”, lyrics:
http://www.christian-lyrics.net/artist/switchfoot/track/new-way-to-be-human
addresses the concept of fame very well in my opinion. “Cause nobody’s famous and nobody’s fine. We all need forgiveness; we’re longing inside” The new way to be human is accepting God’s love and Grace by accepting Jesus. Once we do that we will be complete. “Take me out of me into a new way to be human.” It’s not about being ourselves it’s about being who God has called us to be. The inability to find completion in our modern society, the inability to find completion within ourselves, and the new way to be human in what Christ offers us—His love and His perfect plan of redemption for us.”-from Songmeanings.net
So, my advice is to do what you do now and point to Jesus and The Cross as a soft rocking servant-leader with “freakish talent”. God Bless!
Kevin
Paul J. says:
Yeah, I hated signing autographs, taking pictures, the shrieks and giggles…
I also got the same two questions, and “solved” the issue the same way (instead of a scripture reference, I signed “Look To Jesus” before I signed my name).
Bottom line, it’s your heart that’s the issue. If you can handle the attention and stay pure before God, then you deal with the uncomfortable nature of it. As for me…I look back now and see with shame how much I enjoyed the attention, and how poorly I handled it. I pray that God gives you strength to do better.
Anon says:
As a frequent concert-goer, my answer is to keep doing what you’re doing. As I have very little musical talent, it’s likely that I’ll never be in your situation; however, I would probably end up handling it as you have (though, perhaps a different verse). Personally, when I get autographs on cd’s t-shirts or various other items, it’s not to pride myself on meeting someone with more talent than myself- that happens nearly every day- it’s to remember. I remember the friends who joined me, the music I heard, marching through a quarter mile of calf-deep muddy water to get to the concert tent, hearing about decisions to live for christ, helping stack chairs at the end of the night, eating pizza and chatting with a lesser known band, and glorifying and magnifying God though all of it. Perhaps not everyone gets autographs to remember, but for those of us that do, I ask that you smile as you sign. It creates a better memory.
euphrony says:
Don’t you just love the way you can get crucified over something, no matter what you do?
Myself, I’d probably do about what you did, the whole way through the story. I would not want to autograph anything, then be seen as stuck up and try to compromise in some way. I would feel uncomfortable having my picture plastered on the front of the album cover, because I would rather they not focus on me but on God (and I’m sure that would go over like a lead balloon with the record label).
Really, you’re in a catch 22, Shaun, as is any Christian who becomes well-known. You try your hardest to seek humility but have some misinterpret that as arrogance. You go along with the expectations and have others condemn your pride, and you yourself feel uncomfortable in doing what you do. For me, that last bit might be the balance-tipper: you feel wrong in doing it. On that, I would like to think I would restrain and not autograph, etc. Overall, I’m glad I’m not stuck with this conumdrum.
inWorship says:
Based on a lot of the discussion yesterday, I would do nothing different. your convictions and integrity hold you to a standard. You have decided what is appropriate in your ministry/career. It has been tested by your spiritual convictions and you have made your decision. Your responsibility is to please the God that reigns in your life., through the character He has placed in you, you have made your decision. He is pleased.
Those who come to you for these signatures and such have to answer for their intent.
RevJeff says:
Yeah, I get that after every sermon… “Nice sermon pastor, could you sign my bulletin?” heeheheee… not really.
I used to speak and worship-lead at camps/conferences… when I got asked to sign something I usually would – but only if I could actually learn something about the individual who wanted the requestfirst…
So I’d ask them their name and what exactly I had said or done that made me seem worthy of giving an autograph.
Then I’d ask if they were doing anything significant with their talents… After about a three – five minute conversation, I felt like I’d done more than promote my ego, but actually encouraged them to “BE somebody…”
Then I’d ask them for their autograph (just in case they ever become more famous than me)… and I’d have them sign their name and hometown in a little spiral notebook that I used. Nearly every event I ever did, has a list of a dozen or more kids that I would pray for over the next few days.
Sure, I was never a BIG TIME celebrity like you, but it took the focus off of me and made those “hanging out after the gig times” actually a little more impactful rather than just feeding the “I’m somebody because I got his autograph” delusion of a teenager’s mom…
Shaun Groves says:
Euphrony, an aside here because, well, it’s my blog and I can say whatever I want right?
The album cover thing you brought up is another catch 22 and people outside of the music business might not realize it.
The first level of marketing is recognition: voice, face, song. Once people recognize those three things you move on to level two marketing. Level two won’t work without level one in place.
Level one for me was my weird gotee thing and spikey hair, the song Welcome Home and my whiny voice. And that stuck hard.
When I changed my hair, let it grow out, I fought to keep myself off the album cover, at least in any close-up kind of way. I felt better about that BUT the public no longer recognized me. Without a recognizable song or “look” level one crumbled for us…or that’s one theory.
I’ve only recently gone back to spikey hair (it’s the only hair cut I know how to give myself so when going for cheap spikey is what I do). For the last several years, the long hair years, I was never recognized outside of church. But now that my hair matches the first record again I’m spotted all the time, in airports, restaurants, everywhere…with no hit song at the moment and no label.
As much as I hate having a face on an album cover I have to admit now that those marketing guys know what they’re talking about – it’s good marketing. It makes something stick with consumers. And, here’s the catch, if you want people to hear the ideas in your music, sponsor a kid, whatever your goal is in making music with a label, it helps your cause to be well marketed like that.
So the choice then becomes do I keep myself off the cover because it’s uncomfortable for me or do I let the marketing guys spread my music so I can accomplish XYZ ministry goal?
This business is full of these kinds of weird questions. The collision of commerce and “ministry” does that I suppose.
Aside over. Back to the topic. And thanks for all the good thoughts offered so far.
Josh says:
I think it’s cool if they are getting their cd or shirt autographed because you made those things, they are your “art” so it would be no more arroget then an artist signing his painting, I think the problem comes in when they want you to sign their arm or a piece of paper or something strange (like a baby), I would say…”I didn’t make that…”
Nancy Tyler says:
Years ago I street teamed for this emerging Christian artist who wedged himself between an open door and a wall, talking to me while I stood at the exit giving out post cards with his face on them. I think he was more uncomfortable hearing me say, over and over “I know, wasn’t that a great concert? Go buy the CD,” than he was being squished in there behind that door. LOL
When he could finally be cajoled from his hiding place, I remember how good it felt to see people swarming around him and how affirming it was to see him being reluctant about the whole thing.
I was still trying to figure out back then who was worth supporting in the Christian music business and who wasn’t. That evening, I found the first person I really wanted to get behind in their music ministry. I admired that he wanted to do it right. And I really like that he still does.
euphrony says:
Dealing, to some extent, with marketing new products and new concepts, I know full well that recognition is the platform on which things happen. Interesting story on the many hairs of Shaun Groves. And yes, it’s your blog so take as many bunny trails as you want.
An odd collusion, commerce and ministry. Frankly, it’s almost a wonder that every good-intentioned Christian artist does not become full of himself with the way we idol-crazy Christian consumers treat them (please, read a lot of irony into that statement). It honestly pleases me to no end when I hear of “stars” of any variety acting selflessly or admitting their humanity and weakness – it reaffirms to me that this is someone earning the respect they have received and not just expecting it as their due.
Shaun Groves says:
I just spoke to a group of teens this morning. They’re the kids of registrants at this conference. The guy who was booked to hang with them didn’t make it so I filled in without knowing what it was the folks in charge really wanted from me.
What they wanted, it turned out, was for me to tell my life story and then take questions and then have an autograph and picture time. Probably because of this whole discussion, I refused politely. Instead, I taught a little about the equality of Christians and how wrong it is to worship one person and ignore another. They agreed. I think they’re far less enamored than their adult leaders.
With that out of the way we had a great conversation about life and Compassion International and worship and anything else they wanted to talk about. No autographs or pictures. Juts a really good hang time.
Now, had I been Kelly Clarkson or Green Day things probably would have been different…but it was good at the end of my time here at Estes – I’m sick of being worshipped here – to just sit talk with people who are very unimpressed. It was the high point of my week.
thecachinnator says:
Sign ‘em. What’s an autograph? It’s something people collect to remember that they were somewhere and saw something and heard something. You must surely realize that you’re not even a real person to most of them. You’re a part of the experience that they are living. Likewise to the people who decry autograph signing you’re not a real person. You’re just a symbol of something that they’ve decided to stand against.
Your work and life will speak for itself and your God to those who will listen. To those who won’t, they only way to fail is to not live up to the expectations they have for how their life should go; (As in, “I go to a concert. I like it. I meet the artist and get an autograph afterwards. Then I have something to talk to my friends about.”)
I just don’t think that signing autographs makes you self-glorifying or that not signing them makes you humble. Simply continue to monitor your own motivations and live as you must.
(By the way… hope you don’t mind, but since I didn’t want to bother you at your Waco event, I just forged your signature on a bunch of merch. Didn’t figure you’d mind…)
Shaun Groves says:
It’s easy to do, Cach. My wife does it all the time. “ShG” is pretty much what my signature looks like.
Another rabbit trail…
Didja know that some of the more popular artists in this business don’t actually sign their autographs? I know a guy whose job when he first moved to Nashville was to just sit and sign So-and-So’s name on CDs and posters and mail them out. I know a road manager who signed an artist’s signature on a guitar for a giveaway contest. Some poor person entered and won, thinking they have So-and-So’s signed guitar and guess what…
It’s more common than you’d think. As common as publicists writing quotes for artists, passed off as the artist’s words.
Back to the topic…again.
shaunfan says:
One more rabbit trail…speaking of hair and Green Day, I’d ask Billie Joe Armstrong for his autograph just because of his hair (music’s pretty good too). Good example of “spikey hair” marketing, don’t you think?http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gallery/5398075/green_day_photos/photo/1
Marty says:
I used to travel with a drama team and had to sign autographs occasionally. I struggled with it constantly. I’m glad you’ve found a solution that works for you.
On my side of things, I never ask for autographs so that I’m not adding to the problem. I have asked for pictures but only if I had built a bit of a relationship with the person.
Good luck w/ the whole Christian “fame” thing. It’s kind of weird.
Tracy says:
I’m with the cachinator. . . sign the autographs. We met at Estes Park last year. I don’t think I had you sign anything (I have your teeth, now, so no signature needed!) I did, however, take a picture. I am not really sure where that is right now (OK. . .poster sized in my room). That being said, though, what I remember most about my time is your heart for Christ and your ministry. It made me want to know you, to support you, to remember you. But, most importantly, it made me want to dive into the word of God.
Who you are can never be hidden. It will come out, no matter what. That’s why this isn’t really an issue for you. Your heart, head (and teeth) are in the right place. It’s all about intention. Now. . . you might have to constantly check that, but that’s OK.
You are right. . .this whole ministry/commerce thing is sticky. From what I have heard, though, people are mostly impressed with your heart. It makes them want to hear your music more.
Cali Amy says:
Autographs are memories, and special when attached to something the artist created like a CD or painting as someone mentioned. Just like a picture.
I just don’t see the big deal, I guess. Just because you sing about God doesn’t mean that you are somehow different from every other musician. (or writer…better get used to signing books as well) Actually, you are probably able to connect with fans through autographs much more.
As far as pictures…well people have a natural curiosity about those who put themselves out there. Maybe you challenged through them song or something, so they want to know what you look like, who you are, about your family. And they find your blog. And then they are challenged much more! I think everyone else has hit the nail on the head….it’s about YOUR heart not the hearts of those in attendance. Let God worry about them.
stephen says:
I’m all about the Reverend’s idea of having them sign for you. Maybe you could use a promo poster from that night’s gig. You don’t even have to explain it to them. Just have ‘em sign. The wheels in their head should begin to turn ever so slightly as they process why you asked for their sig.
BUSH says:
this is a great conversation, and i enjoy reading your honesty in your blogs Shaun. these are thoughts that have run through my head over the last couple of years also. do i sign autographs or do i not…and honestly i go back and forth somedays.
sometimes i get off of stage after a night…where God just fell on the place…and a student comes up to me and is like “man, you guys are freaking awesome!” and my heart hurts for them, because i realized that they missed it. they missed the fact that God did some amazing things that night. and in the same moment a student will come up and say, “wow…did you see what God did!”
i don’t know where i’m getting with this, other than the fact that people are in different levels of spiritual maturity, and they handle things differently. i guess our jobs as minister/musicians is to redirect the Glory back to God. we are in danger, as artist, when we start believing what people are saying about us. it’s our responsibilty to not let the ‘fame’ go to our heads.
in the end…how we respond to fame is what really seperates those who consider themselves as ministers first & musicians second, and those who are musicians first & ministers second.
thanks for the conversation.
MammasBoy says:
“What would you do?”
This is a tough question because it isn’t inherently good or bad to sign autographs and much of what could possibly make it wrong is completely out of your control. I like the way Cachinator stated good reasons for asking for an autograph. I also think the verse you include will help the people who might be out of balance examine their reasons for seeking your signature. I haven’t thought about this before, but it looks to me like you have and have come up with a good solution. I still don’t know what I would do, but I would start by looking at how people like yourself have handled it.
The tough part is keeping our own motives pure when put in a position where pride can creep in. I wish you well in that regard. I hope your fans pray for you as much as they listen to your music. In many ways you are in a more difficult position than a pastor or bishop. In healthy churches, people pray for their leaders as commanded in Scripture. However, you are in an entertainment position, somewhere between church and the world. While I know dozens of people who pray regularly for leaders within the Church and even civil government, I know very few people who pray regularly for entertainers.
MB
Brant says:
Maybe someone has already suggested this, or maybe it’s just a bad idea:
I give people autographs, then ask for theirs.
I tried this at an event last year, where we have autograph lines, and had people sign a shirt for me. We’d share a sharpie. It was fun.
Thing is, part of a media job (and, I’ll bet, a musician or author) is to win votes, basically. I think there are VERY fun ways you can do this job, then communicate the flipped-over Kingdom at the same time.
Another way is just asking tons of questions about them, and being genuinely interested, and being genuinely honored to meet them. I know for a fact you already do that.
Mark says:
This has made me rethink things from my perspective.
I collect autographs. While I do have a few CD’s autogrphed (either through promos or from concerts like yours), most of them are books. I go to a lot of book signings and really enjoy meeting the author and getting a signed book. It’s even more special if the author puts somethings personal in there.
Now I don’t think I come across as star struck when I meet someone. (I’m sure Shaun will correct me if I’m wrong.) But I do really enjoy looking about at autographs and the few pictures I have.
So why do I enjoy it so much? Bragging rights? Special memory? Is it because the person is more famous then I am? Do I need to be reevaluating my own motives for doing something I enjoy?
Erin says:
I was reading another blog this morning about fame and autographs and such. This one happened to be by Tony award winning composer/song writer (and one of my favorites) Jason Robert Brown. Here’s the link. http://www.jasonrobertbrown.com/weblog/2007/07/dropping_in.php Interesting story about him going to a local production of one of his shows.
Jonathan Rundman says:
Hi Shaun,
Great blog as always. I say, smile and say thanks and sign sign sign the autographs. No Bible verse damage control necessary….your signature is fine.
Seems to me that Contemporary American Christians are un-gracious receivers. Can’t accept an honest compliment with out a self-deprecating deflection. Paranoidly draw everything back to God so as not to sound ego-centric or self-involved.
God (and almost everybody else) knows where your priorities are, so no worries. And an autograph request is just another form of “thank you” gift from the listener.
Our entire Christian theology hangs on the idea that we thankfully receive a free gift from God that we don’t deserve. So I think we should practice that gracious receiving in the micro-level as well.
Signed, Jonathan Rundman
thecachinnator says:
I was actually just mulling over suggesting that you collect autographs from those who want yours when I read what Brant said. I don’t know… might be interesting. Get a poster, t-shirt, or just a sheet of paper and collect their autographs too.
It’s not actually a solution, but it might be a way of making autograph-seekers do a little self-examination.
I still say just sign ‘em.
Sic ‘em, Shaun.
Cpt. Crayon says:
When they say something like “I can’t believe it’s you,” you could try replying that you’re actually Shaun’s body double and that the real Shaun is on his way Tijuana for a Little Debbie sweepstakes event.
brody says:
sign em.
it’s your job.
people want it for some reason, so I say give it to them.
it’s a profession that artists choose.
Not to “pick on” Shaun, but throw it out to any other artist on here… that’s the job you chose. people have been signing and collecting autographs for years. You knew that getting into it. it’s your job. public relations. I see it the same as playing the guitar.
Biblefanmaryann says:
Hey, I have a poster with S.G.’s signature and that Isaiah verse on it!
I think you should continue signing autographs. If I were in your position, I’d love meeting with people after the shows. When you’re signing stuff, have a genuine interest in the people you’re signing for. Don’t try to look for a quick-fix for pride; be personal. I know you meet a lot of people and it’s impossible to be good buddies with everyone you meet, but I think people are really touched when a stranger shows God’s love to them by taking time, if only a little, just to talk or pray with them. No one can condemn you as arrogant if you’re showing them the love of Jesus.
Anyway, that’s what I think.
Talena says:
I’ve never been asked for an autograph, but I have a certain amount of discomfort with even the short pedestal I have seen people put me on simply by performing on a stage in front of them at church. We want to share the gifts God has given us, but we want the glory to go to Him, right? But people want to see what they want to see.
Thanks for keeping it real, man. If I ever have the opportunity to shake your hand in person, it will simply be to thank you for being who you are–a willing vessel, a jar of clay, a cracked pot. Whatever. (Just kidding.) And I promise to not ask you to sign anything!
I wish more people would realize that we are all just people, too.