Shaun Groves
“What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us.” -A.W.Tozer
I watched the comments at NFL.com stream in as the Patriots slaughtered the Broncos.
“Pray your way out of this one Timmy.”
“I guess Jesus had better things to do today.”
(And those are the repeatable ones.)
Tim Tebow has inadvertantly revealed more about the state of faith in America than any pollster or sociologist could. If we’re listening well we can learn a great deal about the gospel – not the one we believe, but the one we’ve preached.
Some Tebow defenders commented as well, feeling as if Tebow’s faith was being attacked. But they were wrong.
The attacks were against a version of Christianity that Tebow – like most Christians throughout history – does not claim as his own. Yet, at times, most of us have sure sounded like we do.
Somehow, many have gotten the idea that we Christians view Jesus/God/faith/church as a talisman, a lucky rabbit’s foot. Keep Jesus in your pocket and you can defeat the most successful quarterback in NFL history. Ridiculous, right?
At first, I want to blame that prosperity preacher down in Texas. I want to put him on a flight to Haiti, lay a dying baby in his arms and tell him to tell her weeping mother all she needs to do is have faith and her little girl will “prosper.” But is the blame all his?
What about this familiar phrase? The family that prays together stays together.
Really? No matter what? If we just circle up once a day, talk to God and end with an “Amen” a forcefield will lower over my house, my kids won’t rebel, I’ll meet my wife’s every need, and she won’t cheat on me?
And if we skip a day? Does the forcefield evaporate, leaving my kids susceptible to addiction, me doomed to workaholism, and my wife prone to philandering?
God, forgive me for selling sure-fire easy-peezy drive-by solutions wrapped in biblical language to complex people living complex lives. Forgive me for making promises you won’t keep. Because of me they think you’re a liar.
Forgive me for picking up the bullhorn of faith when I’m in the end zone and putting it down when I’m at the bottom of the dog pile. Forgive me for claiming the job promotion as a “God thing” but calling the cancer abandonment. I’ve created my own religion that’s making yours harder and harder to hear.
I’m sorry.
Jennifer Pelletier says:
Tough read, but a well stated and much reminder.
Jennifer Pelletier says:
Much NEEDED reminder.. Sorry, crazy phone post.
rebecca says:
me too
Jessica says:
<3
Kelly says:
So very true and well said. We’ve also created the climate where it’s okay to use a bunch of precious children reciting a beautiful verse from Scripture to sell Jesus…as if he needed an endorsement between a bag of chips and a bottle of beer. You should check out a book called The Drama of Ephesians by Tim Gombis- it talks a whole lot about the subversive nature of the gospel and how we’re to approach everything from the position of humility- not power. He has a lot to say about those “God things” as well. It’s been very thought provoking for me at least. 🙂
Christine says:
I love this message. I think to really get this, a believer has to go from young faith to tested faith. Suffering tests faith. When every day feels hard, if not for His grace, the believer begins to understand.
It’s not about what happens here.
His grace is sufficient for the here and now. The rewards, the perfection, the power, come in Heaven. It’s all about heaven.
To know this hard truth, you have to suffer. And when your suffering comes, you have to say thank you. Use me.
Still praying for your hard things, Shaun.
Dave Haupert says:
Great Post!
As much as it hurts to read those nasty comments against our faith, and lament over what we’ve done to dilute the real message of Grace and the cross, we have to remember that people were using Christ’s words to mock him even while He was still on earth.
Remember when He was on the cross and people were mocking that he said he could rebuilt the temple in 3 days but now can’t even save himself. And I have to be honest- a part of me wishes he did come down from the cross right then and then to prove himself, maybe even on live television for the world to see! (kind of like the Bruce Almighty scene where the remains of Jimmy Hoffa were found on live TV with a copy of the dental records for good measure!)
Sure would have made sharing our faith easier, and while we are at it, wouldn’t it be great if the words Jesus said after cursing the fig tree about us being able to throw mountains in the sea if we ask for it in pure faith to be easier to attain? Maybe then it wouldn’t be used to ‘disprove’ Christianity by so many who don’t believe.
The reality is that God doesn’t answer all prayers the way we want them to, that God doesn’t make himself known when put to these tests. Some day maybe we’ll understand the reasons for that. But for now, we have to be more honest about what it means to follow Christ. It’s not all earthly prosperity and happiness- it’s more about choosing to be happy with less of this earth and more of Him.
Thanks Shaun for making us conscious of this today. If only the world church could read this and adapt..
Rose-Marie says:
So honest.
Cynthia says:
Fully grasping the finished work of Jesus is something I’m still trying to wrap my head around. I no longer have to do things in order to find favor with God. Nor do I lose favor when I totally mess up. That’s religion, not the Gospel. I pray my life is a reflection of the Gospel and not religion.
Shaun Groves says:
You had me until those last two sentences. Religion is not bad. I am.
There is religion God approves of remember? James 1:27
Oh, I feel a post coming on ; )
Cynthia says:
I actually remembered a post you wrote a few years ago (about religion) as I typed those words, but hoped you didn’t have as good of memory as me! 🙂
Kelli says:
I would LOVE to read just such a post from you. This has been on my mind a lot lately due to things I’ve read and seen online and I sometimes have such a hard time wrapping my mind around such topics and then you write something and I’m all, “Yeah…THAT.”
So, no pressure, but I need you to write what I’m thinking. 😉
Oh, and this post? Totally what I was thinking, but way more eloquent than, “Geez, people, lay off. It’s a friggin’ football game,” which was rolling through my head.
Have I ever mentioned that Mercy and Grace are not my best qualities? Yeah…working on that. Thanks for this post.
brad says:
Good article Shaun. I would like to see more Christian athletes giving thanks weather they win or lose, “in everything give thanks”. Having said that, I’ve enjoyed following the Tebow story. I don’t think God cares who wins a football game played between millionaires, but I do think He sometimes does things to try to get our attention and remind us that He can do what he darn well pleases. I may be wrong, but I feel like he did that with Tebow.
One quibble though, I know the article was just targeting easy-believeism, but the comment about “the family that prays together…” kind of struck me the wrong way. Not because of the intent, (“come to Jesus and your life will be a bowl of cherries” is wrong), but because we have loads of families in our fellowship that desperately need to get a family devotional life going, and those family prayers do change things when prayed in faith and in accordance with God’s will.
Doesn’t mean you won’t have hardships, but in scripture don’t we see that sometimes God protects from harm in response to prayer and sometimes he allows it to come for reasons we don’t understand?
So I agree with what you are saying with the article, just don’t know if that example was the best one. Hope I’m expressing this correctly. I appreciate your desire to see genuine faith expressed, and yes, true religion practiced. We are thankful for your efforts on behalf of children in need and the example you set.
Shaun Groves says:
I used that well-worn phrase BECAUSE I know of so many marriages ending right now. ONLY praying together doesn’t make a marriage divorce-proof. ONLY anything doesn’t. It’s more complex than that. And I think you’d agree.
Perhaps there’s a way I could have clarified that I wasn’t making light of the power of prayer. But, after all, it’s a blog post, not a book ; ) Thanks for grace.
Paul Davis says:
ok, I’m sorry, I think what you’re saying is mostly true, but your skepticism on prayer and the power of God working in prayer is interesting. “The family that prays together, stays together. Really? No matter what?” Yes, if they are truly praying and not just “saying some things to God and end with an Amen.” That’s not prayer. Prayer is the lifeblood of our relationship with God. If you don’t pray, you don’t know God. You may know about God, but you don’t know him. Christ said, “You diligently study the scriptures because you THINK that by them you possess eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to ME to have life.” It’s not that complex: Pray.
So yes, the family that knows God in prayer, stays together because “the one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.” He will allow you to meet every need your wife has. He will keep your wife from cheating on you. He will keep your children from rebelling against you. He will protect your house from the attacks of Satan, which are NOT flesh and blood (cancer, death, sickness, physical problems) but “against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
Prayer is our only defense against the evil one. If we don’t have that, we are lost. We will be destroyed by Satan if we don’t dwell in the presence of God in prayer. That kind of praying is a lifestyle. It’s hours a week on your knees before your Maker. It’s what keeps families out of divorce court and husbands off porn.
Prayer = “As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God?” If your family does this, God will meet all of your needs. “Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well.”
So I agree with your assessment of the faith of our nation and people making promises God won’t keep, but don’t forget about the promises he has made–that he will keep your family together no matter what if you give your family to him, completely. The Holy Spirit will be so strong in your family if you devote the time to him in prayer that your family will prosper (not in money, but in faith) more than you can imagine.
“Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and will bring you back from captiviity.”
“if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place.”
If we don’t have hope that God not only hears our prayers but answers them, where is our hope? There is no one else.
Shaun Groves says:
I never expressed skepticism about prayer, doubted its effectiveness or questioned its necessity. And I certainly didn’t advocate a life without prayer.
Prayer is simply not ALL we need. If only that were true.
For more posts about prayer…
http://shaungroves.com/tag/prayer/
Christine says:
I think it profoundly sad that so many Christian marriages dissolve. And I’m sorry that you personally are seeing so many dissolve right now.
I agree with Shaun here, and I’ll explain why.
It is easy for us to say it would never happen to us, because we do such and such. The problem is that we cannot control what our spouse does. I can understand that marriage is a covenant with God, and no matter how much of a jerk my spouse becomes, I will persevere, because of what Jesus did on the cross for me. Because marriage is about growth, more than about happiness. I can control how close I stay to God, so that I can live these ideals. I can control the feeling that love is something people need to earn, rather than a free gift I give.
The problem is, a person can’t control whether his or her spouse clings to God. Clinging is very personal, done alone, between you and God. You can’t really know how strongly your spouse is clinging to Him. So you can’t control how strongly your spouse is committed to the marriage.
Mine own spouse, I believe, is in it until death, partly because he suffered a lot before he ever got married, and he already knew the Christian life was not about happiness, but about pouring out love to imperfect people, as Jesus did.
But his relationship with God could still grow cold. He has the choice to remain close to God, or not. He still has the choice to stay with me, or not.
Sorry for being long-winded here, but I strongly agree with Shaun. There is no formula for having an intact family or marriage–not even prayer. Because it all depends on individual people choosing every day to cling to the Savior. We can only control what we do. And that’s precisely why each person needs a deep relationship with God. Because He is the only One who never disappoints…who never runs out of love or strength or devotion. He comes first in our hearts, as an act of obedience, and for our very survival.
Paul Davis says:
i didn’t say you abandoned prayer completely, just that it was evident you didn’t think prayer was an effective way to keep a family together.
the way scripture puts it, prayer is our connection to God. It’s our relationship with God. It’s our access to God through the Holy Spirit. So what else is there that we need if God is not enough?
what i’m saying is that anything else you can think of that you need besides prayer, comes as a result of prayer. Jesus did nothing by himself, only what he saw the Father doing, and that is what we are called to do. We achieve that knowledge and relationship of the Father through prayer. Read Paul’s prayers in Ephesians and see what he prayed for…that God give us a spirit of wisdom and revelation that we know him better.
so to say we need more than prayer is skepticism of prayer. it’s basically saying that you have some power or ability or work or deed that can do something the power of God cannot do through prayer.
Paul Davis says:
To Christine:
What you’re saying is obvious. It also is contradictory. To say “there is no formula for having an intact family or marriage–not even prayer” is to go against everything in the Bible. Surely you don’t believe that trusting God for the direction of your family is NOT going to work, do you? That basically says that God cannot help your family or marriage–you’re on your own! Then you say it all depends on individual people choosing to cling to Christ.
1. there is no formula for marriage
2. people must choose for themselves (what formula they want to follow)
3. it all (successful formulas for marriage) depends on choosing Jesus (as your formula)
You go on to say that “a person can’t control whether the spouse clings to God” “it is done alone”…well in God’s eyes a husband wife union is seen as one person–the two will become one flesh. Yes, you will each have individual walks with God, but you MUST have a collective walk with God and THAT is what I am talking about when I say “a family that prays together stays together.” The family that has a collective relationship with God as the foundation will stay together. It is true. It is Biblical. It is the way God designed for families to live.
Also, the concept of “we can only control what we do” and your statement about “you can’t really know how strongly your spouse is clinging to him,” are lies of Satan. You can have a profound impact on your husband’s spiritual walk and drastically impact whether he walks strongly with God or falls away. Of course, it’s not all up to you, but the way in which you support his leadership of the family or encourage/discourage it or make efforts to have God be at the forefront of how you live will impact his spiritual life. Husbands and wives are not two lonely isolated spiritual islands floating along unrelated and unconnected to each other. Furthermore, you will definitely know how strongly your husband is connected to Christ based on the fruit he is bearing in his life. How does he treat you? How does he handle himself around his friends? What kinds of internet sites does he visit? All of these things will reveal to you VERY clearly if he is walking with God or not. And like I said before, they will all be a result of how much time he and you spend in prayer together and separately.
Shaun, I’m really sorry for taking up this much space on your blog and I understand if you “moderate” this away, but I feel very strongly about this.
Don’t let Satan lie to you and tell you that you have no impact on your husband’s spiritual life. You are PARTNERS in life. You must share everything with each other including how you are doing spiritually. If he is down, you need to encourage him and lift him up (Christ will do that as well in prayer). You need to be aware of where he is and he needs to know where you are with God. If you’re not talking about it and praying together then Satan has an easy open door to disrupt and separate you from each other. God bless.
Shaun Groves says:
Paul, because I know you from the real world, I think you and I would agree on this whole thing if we actually talked instead of typed. And I’d like that very much. So, feel free to give me a shout if you want to talk this through. I’m sure there’s much I could learn from that discussion.
I think the disagreement is arising from poor communication on my part, not a true difference of thought on prayer. Well, and maybe a different definition of “skeptical” too. ; )
Christine says:
Paul, I agree with everything you said about a couple living as one. And my husband and I cling to each other very well, as we both do to God.
But we also parent four young children, two of whom are special needs. The days are full. I spend most of the night in my three-year-old’s bed, because she deals with nighttime pain from juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. Other mothers spend months in the hospital with a pre-mature child. There are seasons of life in which you live on grace alone–not your well thought out plan. Prayer defeats Satan, but sometimes, you can’t keep up the same level of prayer, because life is imperfect. People are imperfect. They hurt. They grieve differently.
My point is that if a marriage is good even through turmoil, it is by grace alone. It is good to have a plan to keep your marriage strong, but God has a knack for turning your life upside down, reminding you that you survive on grace alone. All is grace, as Ann would say.
It is when life is upside down that the individual’s clinging to God is most important. You can’t support your spouse through every instance of pain and suffering, because of your own intense suffering renders you less capable. Sometimes, it is God’s hand alone they must hold. In the end, you are stronger together, but only if you both clung tightly to Him the whole time.
Christine says:
And Paul, lest you think I don’t know the power of prayer, you’re wrong. Like you, as recently as last summer I increased my prayer discipline and realized for the first time the incredible power of prayer. It changed my perspective greatly and I wrote a whole series on it.
Right after that, a fresh coat of pain entered our lives. I couldn’t find the words for awhile, just groans. Right now God has me doing a lot of intercessory prayer as I go about my day, because the suffering of others is on my mind, in the midst of our own. The intercessory prayer keeps our eyes off our own troubles and onto Him.
We can strive in prayer and Bible reading and learn the power of both, but a time will come when we are just in shock. All our striving will halt for a time, and we see that only through God’s power do we do anything at all. He wants us to have spiritual practices, but also to remain humble in them, knowing that we cannot adhere to them perfectly, anymore than we can to the Law. They are not what saves us, in any meaning of the word “save”.
What you say is valuable, and I’m not discounting that.
Paul Davis says:
Christine, I responded to most of your message on Thomas D’s post below. But I had one thing to add to your second post below. Spiritual practices are not the law and can’t be compared to it. (However, some people do become legalistic about them–thinking that they are an end in themselves, which they are not, they are the means by which we commune with the Father, specifically prayer) Adhering to them perfectly is not practical and I never said we had to be perfect in prayer, but Paul the Apostle made a statement like, “Pray continually” “Devote yourselves to prayer” “Remain faithful in prayer” These sound like we should pray all the time. I don’t know how to “pray continually” but I’m striving to see if I can. Furthermore, the scripture says, “The letter kills (the Law) but the Spirit gives LIFE.” The Spirit is found in prayer. If you’re going to be devoted to anything, be devoted to prayer because in prayer, you are in God’s presence and that is where you find life, find Jesus, find his rest, find his grace, find his healing, his comfort, his peace, his everything because he is everything and you are with him. Deut 4:7, “What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him?”
Cathy says:
I’m sorry Paul, but I agree with Shaun on this one. There are so many trite, cliche’s that we throw around because they sound so good and so spiritual, but it is FAR more complex than that. After years in full-time ministry with my ex-husband, I can say that without a doubt, it’s not that simple. I have also witnessed first hand families that have daily devotions together, attend church together every week and in general, do everything “right” and those families have still been splintered in one way or another.
Paul Davis says:
To Cathy,
I can see how from your situation you would think it is more complicated that what I explained from scripture, but it’s also so easy to be deceived by Satan. He has a way of counterfeiting signs of spiritual growth, even authentic-looking false spiritual lives (ones that are merely put on for a show but nothing exists in the private times in your closet alone with God). I guarantee that if these splintered families were actually doing everything “right” (seeking with all their heart), things would not have turned out the way they did. God’s promises remain true always.
it’s really not that complicated (Satan wants us to believe there’s a lot to it, but there’s not), there are real seekers and there are fake seekers. the fake seekers do not spend the time in prayer that the real seekers do because the Holy Spirit would convict their hearts of their sin and prompt change. Therefore those who aren’t truly seeking just leave out the private prayer aspect of their faith and do the “daily devotional” and things that others see like church and even say “public prayers” but never truly commune with the Father. It’s not that complicated.
To Shaun:
Thanks. I don’t have your number, but I’m sure we would agree if we didn’t have to type it all out and just just talk about it. In my personal walk, I have truly been blessed by seeing what God has done through me increasing my prayer time 10 fold. Prayer has really changed me. I’ve experienced it.
Amy Lynne says:
I get frustrated by interpretations of faith all the time. I believe all things happen for a reason because He has a plan for us all. The good, the bad, the ugly all of it happens to guide us to the place He wants us to be.
I’m no expert, but only praising during the good times seems pretty backwards to me.
Liz Reeves says:
Shaun,
I’ve never been more proud to call you my hometown celebrity than after reading this post. (Well, ok, so maybe there have been a few other amazing moments that I wanted to high five you as well, but this one is definitely at the top of the list.) SO totally agree with every word. I’m gonna share this post! Hope that’s ok!
Shelley says:
great post! i wanted to post the link to this article to my facebook, but when I do it just posts the link to the shaun groves store. do you know what’s up with that?
valerie says:
I’m getting the link to the store as well….?
Shaun Groves says:
All fixed! Thanks for the heads up about that Facebook issue.
Shelley says:
Sorry, that last post had the wrong email and i didn’t realize until it was sending. this is a great post! i wanted to post the link to this article to my facebook, but when I do it just posts the link to the shaun groves store. do you know what’s up with that?
Thomas D says:
Paul your devotion to prayer and the Scriptures is correct; as well as your desire to uphold God’s promises; but God does not promise believers happy homes; lives or families. Lives free from pain; poverty or anything else that ails anyone else in the world. God promises us His Person, Presence and Power to sustain us through anything and everything that we must face. For that is where and when the promises of God become ever more real to us and sustain us, as King David so frequently discovered during his own trials which so often precipitated his writing the psalms.
The Apostle Paul once said: “We must through many tribulations enter the Kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22). Not as means to salvation but as a reality check. For there will be times when believers marriages fail; (1 Cor. 7) deals with that. When professing Christian spouses will abandon both faith and marriage. For God though never wanting such things to occur, never overrides the individual’s choice when it comes to faithfulness to Him. He solemnly warns against it; both literally by His Word and in the examples recorded for us in the Scriptures; but God does not override human choice; to choose to accept or reject Him, and or obey His will, just as He allowed Adam and Eve the choice to disobey Him. Instead He offers us His Person, grace and Power in our darkest moments so that yielding to sins temptation is not our, or anybody else’s ruin (1 Cor. 10:13). Again Paul you are to be commended for your loyalty to the Scriptures.
Paul Davis says:
You’re right in saying that God doesn’t promise happiness or lives free from pain–physical pain, but he does promise that he will protect us from spiritual pain if we trust in him. You referenced 1 Cor 10:13, “God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear, but will provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.” What is the way out? It is the Holy Spirit’s power, which we access in prayer. Why else would Jesus tell his disciples before his death, “Watch and pray so that you do not fall into temptation.” I know that in my battle against recurring sin, I had tried everything in my power to keep myself from it, but could never get rid of the desire until I started taking it to God daily in prayer, even multiple times a day. And now when the desire re-enters my mind, I just pray it away. I “watch” for it and when I see it, “I pray so that I will not fall into temptation.”
Furthermore, Paul wrote, “In fact everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus WILL BE persecuted.” That may sound like spiritual pain, but Paul found a way to be content in every situation, even his persecutions, and he did that through prayer. James even writes “Consider it pure joy whenever you face trials of many kinds…” That doesn’t sound like pain–it doesn’t sound like fun either–it sounds like the one being persecuted/tried is rejoicing in something supernatural, something beyond this earth’s pleasures, which is the Holy Spirit.
You’re right that God does not override a person’s choice to leave him and that will INDEED ruin a marriage and family. I don’t think we are disagreeing here, Thomas D, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn’t referring to superficial happiness or earthly prosperity. I appreciate your response and think we have a lot in common on this. I liked your points on David…speaking of which…
To Christine: Think of David. Did he stop praying when his life became unbearable and was on the run for his life? Where do you find this grace to rely on? It’s in the presence of God: “Therefore, let us APPROACH the throne of GRACE with confidence! so that we may receive mercy and find GRACE to help us in our time of need!” (This is not “[my] well thought out plan”–I sense your skepticisim) You cannot find that grace that you are saying you’re relying on without going before the throne of God. God did not bless you with special needs children so that you would be overwhelmed to the point of not praying. Jesus said, “Come to me all who are weary and I will give you rest.” You can’t find the rest apart from him. I’m praying you find rest in him. When you are distant from God in prayer, you are distant from his mercy, grace, and rest. When you approach the throne of grace and Jesus Christ, you find the rest you need and the mercy and grace. Again, this is not “my well thought out plan” It is the only plan.
Note: I am not using the word “grace” above referring to salvation by grace, but rather God’s help by grace as in Heb 4
Christine says:
Your words Paul: “God did not bless you with special needs children so that you would be overwhelmed to the point of not praying. Jesus said, “Come to me all who are weary and I will give you rest.” You can’t find the rest apart from him. I’m praying you find rest in him. When you are distant from God in prayer, you are distant from his mercy, grace, and rest.”
Sir, I am not distant from God. Far from the contrary. He pours into me when I am too frail to put words together and I am blessed to listen to Him. I’m sure you are a very pleasant person, living a God-honoring life. But your words here? Very arrogant, sir.
Paul Davis says:
Christine: sorry, I must have just misunderstood what you were saying.
Christine says:
It’s okay. I know your heart is to help people deepen their walks.
Angie says:
You first point, about the prosperity gospel, I agree with completely! In fact, I get a little worked up about it as I’ve learned just how much harm it does. I’m not very fond of that preacher here in Tx or many of the false teachers that have gone before him.
However, the “family that prays together…” point – wouldn’t you consider that more of a proverb? True, it’s not straight from the Bible, but anyone taking that as a promise of God clearly doesn’t have discernment. And maybe that’s your point? But you could take any proverb and twist it into a promise (“Train up a child in the way he should go…” for example).
So if you point is that we do that in Christiandom, we take proverbs and make them promises (thus including the prosperity proverbs), I agree, but I don’t see what “proverb” prosperity teachers have turned into promises based on having faith. They take promises made to Israel out of context, sure, and they twist NT exhortations, but proverbs? Help me out here, I’m a little lost.
Maybe I’m overthinking it (that happens…daily). Either way, great post!
Karen Spears Zacharias says:
I am totally with you about the pastor from Texas. I keep wondering how did this man gain so much credibility with the American public? How did we replace Billy Graham with him?
Christine says:
Paul, Sir, I agree with everything you are saying. I don’t see a post you wrote to Thomas.
The Spirit speaks to me even when I am not in prayer. This is especially true when I am hurting the most and don’t have the words. I am quiet and I listen and I feel the comfort, love, wisdom. During these times, I am not actually praying, just listening.
The Spirit is there when we pray, and when we read the Bible, yes. These disciplines are crucial, as you are exhorting.
When we are too weak to do either, the Spirit is also there for us. I feel Him. He doesn’t always ask something from me. Sometimes, he just pours into me. He is faithful. As Thomas says, he promises His presence and power.
I’m sure you are not disputing this; I just want to tell my experience with this, for the sake of any hurting mothers or wives. He loves us and will be there for us when we practice disciplined prayer, desperate prayer, emotional prayer, or no prayer.
Paul Davis says:
The post to Thomas just got approved and is up now. I really think we are starting to communicate. When you say “listen for the holy spirit” you are praying!! Prayer has a bad rep as being what we do, when it really Is more about what God does!! So when you say “no prayer” if you mean “silent, listening prayers” or “be still and know that I am God” prayers, then Yes and Amen!!
NancyTyler says:
I’m late coming to the this blog post, but Christine, I’m praying for you and your husband as you pour your lives into the needs of your kids. I’m praying you’ll keep experiencing the comfort and camaraderie of the Lord’s presence through the exhausted times and the long nights. And I’m asking Him to let you experience the joy of seeing the relief of your dear ones’ pain.
Kristy says:
Shaun, thank you very much for this post. It’s so easy to fall into the trap of thinking that “If I just do this, then God has to . . . ” He has every right to “mess” with our lives because when we made the committment to surrender to him, He became our Lord. I have grown up in the church, been a “lifer” lover of Jesus, but the older I get, the harder it is to stomach “the formula for a happy, blessed Christian life” that many very well-meaning Christians espouse knowingly or not. I am getting SO TIRED of it!
It blows me away how many people focus on Job but forget Jeremiah’s experience. He was faithful to God always! Yet, Jeremiah had repeated attempts on his life, was put in jail, left to rot, and never saw anyone truly repent. He was actually kidnapped & died in exile in Egypt after praying to God for the people who promised that they would do whatever God said. God said, “Stay here. Don’t go to Egypt.” And they went to Egypt. Where all of them and Jeremiah died. I don’t understand it. It’s not fair. But life is not fair.
As I wrestle with the impact of the statement, “Jesus is my Lord & Master”, that challenges and terrifies me. I KNOW God is good & that He loves me immeasurably, but it is so hard to trust Him. Before my worst nightmare happened three times, I used to trust God easily & freely.
Now, it’s a battle. I am slowly regaining trust, but my sense of betrayal is very hard to uproot as thus far my life experiences say “When you trust Jesus completely, He doesn’t protect the ones you love.”
As I go to see my specialist tomorrow to discover if my disease has progressed to a Stage 3 or if I am still a Stage 2, my body is trembling with fear. Will Jesus be enough to sustain me through the loss of my health, independence, and ability to move without pain? If Jesus should choose a path of sickness leading to my death before I’m 40, will I be able to let go of my dream of ever being married and a mother?
Will I be able to trust Him when I don’t understand, in the dark night of the soul?
Whatever time and life I have left, I have surrendered to Him. I ache & long to be with Him in Heaven with my loved ones.
But I am afraid . . . I am human. I lack courage. But God has given me hope that maybe one day in the future, I will be able to fully & completely trust Him like a little child again.
I have no real answers anymore, just the hope and promise that God is my Shelter in the Storm, my Rock, my Redeemer, and my HOPE. Whether my auto-immune system works properly and I never have to go back to my specialist or if I get to know him too well.
Life is hard. Faith is harder. And there is both joy and heartbreak in the journey.
I have no empty platitudes or formulas to offer.
All I know is that God is still here . . . and for tonight I will cling to Him and to that hope.
NancyTyler says:
Kristy, I’m praying for you–for your healing and your continued courage whatever the results of those medical tests. I’m praying that you’ll experience peace as you hold your life’s dreams out to the Lord and yet still long for them so dearly. And most of all, I’m praying that you’ll feel your Father’s comfort and hope through everything.
Mitzi says:
Wow! Well said. It is so much easier to wear the religion than to believe in the relationship.
Shaun Groves says:
John Wesley rose early every morning to pray. Three or four hours on his knees every morning. And throughout his day, without ceasing, the conversation with God continued. Wesley believed everything – eating, writing, walking – should be done with so much focus on God and so much attention to His voice that it becomes prayer.
When he was forty-eight, Wesley married the widow Mary Vazeille. They had no children together. And after fifteen years she left him. He wrote in his journal “I did not forsake her, I did not dismiss her, I will not recall her.”
Wesley and his wife prayed together but did not stay together. How can this be?
Paul Davis says:
Well you’re making a lot of assumptions. Did Wesley and his wife actually pray together or did he pray and she watched? Again, this argument is an argument against prayer and makes you appear skeptical of the power of God to work in our lives.
In fact, a lot of people who have posted on this article have professed a very “hands-off” theology, that God isn’t going to intervene when things are bad so why even pray about it? Really people? Some of you talk as if God doesn’t care in the least if you suffer and won’t do a thing about it even if you pray because he is God and he doesn’t have to do anything if he doesn’t want to.
And in case it still isn’t clear, prayer is NOT only about asking for things or asking God to do things, it’s about becoming like him and building a relationship him. I said it before, our battle is not against flesh and blood or cancer and death, our battle is against Satan’s army and he wants nothing more than to turn Christians into a bunch of skeptical, prayer less people.
I understand Shaun’s perspective about making promises that God never said he would keep–like winning football games–but, hello!, he did make promises to us that he will keep. Now if you’re not seeing them in your life, then scripture says your prayer life is what is lacking, not God’s power. (You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. — speaking of Jeremiah — I don’t feel bad for Jeremiah one bit; he had an awesome relationship with God and God was his only friend.)
Just something to think about. Now, I welcome all the negative feedback I’m about to receive, but before you blast me, please start using some scripture in your responses. I like hearing everyone’s opinions, but use scripture to back it up please.
Shaun Groves says:
The apostle Paul prayed…
Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:5-6, 13)
…making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe… (Ephesians 1:16-19)
…that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man; so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:16-19)
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. (Philippians 1:9-11)
…we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints of light. (Colossians 1:9-12)
To this end also we pray for you always that our God may count you worthy of your calling and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power; in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. (II Thessalonians 1:11-12)
When he prayed for those he loved, he often asked God to bring them to greater maturity and unity for doing God’s will. God answered these prayers with healing and sickness, peace and persecution…and shipwrecks. Their perseverance produced maturity. God worked all things together for their good. But not all things were what the you and I might call good.
Shaun Groves says:
It was not my intention to argue against prayer. I regret that it could even be perceived that way.
Yes, according to biographers, Wesley and his wife prayed together frequently.
Their marriage ending in divorce is not an argument against prayer – as I see it. I am not thinking in terms of either/or. The difference between us is not that you are for prayer and I am against prayer. I am simply for prayer AND…
If prayer were THE thing we must do to have a healthy lasting marriage then Paul said too much to the Ephesians.
Ephesians 5:21-33 …and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. 22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each individual among you also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see to it that she respect her husband.
Of course we should pray! We must! But, according to Paul, a godly marriage requires prayer AND…
…and submission, love, honor, protection, fidelity, service. Is any of this possible without connection to God? No! So pray.
But can a person pray and NOT honor his wife, not protect and submit and sacrifice at all times? Can a man pray and still be an imperfect husband? Yes. That’s me.
Prayer does not render me or my wife perfect. But it is an essential PART of our connecting to the only One who is.
Shaun Groves says:
On the subject of marriage, Paul.
Is it your belief that every divorce occurs because both spouses have not prayed together?
Or, put another way…
If my wife and I pray together are we guaranteed to never divorce?
What exactly is your belief?
Just clarifying. Not sure you’ve really come right out and said that yet. Sorry if I missed it somewhere along the way.
Paul Davis says:
the verses of Paul’s prayers testify to exactly what I have been saying this whole time. you’re adding an extra step to the process that isn’t there (you). When I say you, I don’t mean you specifically, I mean all of us. Let me explain, and let’s stay in Ephesians since that’s where your marriage quote came from and I think Paul’s theology of prayer is best exemplified.
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened (chapter 1)
Who is doing the action here? You say you are for PRAYER AND…and I’m saying there is no AND for “you/us/me.” So, looking at what Paul prays for in this verse…
1. He asks GOD to give you a Spirit of wisdom and revelation
2. Why? So that you may know him better.
3. He prays that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened
4. By whom? By God, (subject carries over since this is one sentence in the Greek)
5. Why? To know the hope for which he has called you AND HIS incomparably great POWER for us who believe.
Now look at Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith…
Again, same story…HE MAY strengthen you with POWER through HIS SPIRIT so that Christ may dwell in your hearts. God enables Christ to dwell in us. We cannot do the things you are saying. We DO NOT do the things you are saying are the “AND” part attached to prayer.
So say we need to pray AND “submission, love, honor, protection, fidelity, service” None of that is accomplished by you or through your own power. It is only by the power of God that you do any of that and Paul had it figured out: Ask God to do it. Like in 1 Thess 5:24 “The one who calls you is faithful and HE WILL DO IT.” Not you, not me, not any of us will do it. Only he will.
Furthermore, the key to marriage not ending in divorce, which by the way is sin (having seen my family go through it enough), is easily summed up in the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace…(you know ’em) and how do we acquire the Power/Fruit of the Spirit? Well according to Paul’s pattern, we pray for them, but to be more specific, we pray into them. The power of the fruit of the Spirit is developed over time spent with the Spirit. The Spirit must have time to grow in us and develop a tree of fruits. (Look at Matt 12:33+ how do you “make” the tree good? By remaining the in vine, obviously. What does that mean? It means approaching the throne of grace, which is prayer.)
If you want to learn how to love your wife, pray like Paul, “God give me the power to love my wife” if you want to follow Eph 5, “God give me the power to be subject to my husband” because it is futile to attempt to do it on your own. You can do nothing good on your own. It is only by the power of God that you do anything good. (lots of verses)…
Paul Davis says:
…there are thirty or forty verses that I could cut and paste here that speak to our inability to do these things that everyone has been saying we must do in addition to prayer. Once I realized that I cannot love my wife, I began seeking God to give me the power to love her. Christians must realize that since WE are not the ones doing the good deeds, God is (which he prepared in advance for us to do/he who began a good work will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ, etc), we must stay connected to the source even more diligently (if you remain in me, you will bear much fruit, apart from me you can do NOTHING). We look at prayer as an “all-request-line” or “get-what-I-want” or “heal-my-friend” magic trick, but God didn’t design it that way. Of course, he calls us to “present our requests and petitions with thanksgiving” but more than that, he designed prayer as a means of spending time with Him through the power of the Spirit. I’ve always been intrigued by how Paul never prayed for the church members of Ephesus/Philippi/etc to be healed from their leprosy or blindness or disabilities or whatever (assuming the church was made up of imperfect people like it is today)…he only prayed for people to be transformed by the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus. Isn’t that odd? Most churches/people spend all of their time praying for healing and we get mad at God when he doesn’t answer us. I don’t know why that is…
So to answer your question about divorce, yes, prayer is the solution to divorce. The problem is that we don’t understand how to pray. That is something else God must teach us to do, Luke 11:1 “Lord, teach us to pray.” Until we have the desire like David did when he wrote “As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you O God…When can I go and meet with God?” we don’t truly understand prayer.
Don’t think for a second that I am saying I have figured it out. I am just realizing how much of a failure I am at prayer and am (not working at it but) praying for God to give me more of a desire to pray everyday.
Here’s the thing about divorce. When Satan lures marriages down that path, it is extremely hard for the couple to bring themselves back to a place where they can have intimate prayers with the Father. That must start long before the “D” word is ever brought up, thus preventing it from being brought up. Once the seed has been planted by Satan, it’s typically too late–not because God isn’t powerful to save it, but because the couple is too far distanced from God for them to turn from their sin and let God in (If I had cherished sin in my heart, you would not have listened. Ps66:18). Satan is our worst enemy and his greatest plan is to keep Christian couples from praying together–i mean truly seeking the Father together like streams of water. He succeeds left and right.
Nevertheless, prayer is everything. Prayer is our way to Remain in Him. (Jn14-16) And our obedience is the result of remaining in his love
Paul Davis says:
thank you, Shaun, for being such a peaceful and pleasant person to have this discussion with and for allowing me the freedom to express my thoughts on your blog. I appreciate everyone who contributed to the conversation. It always helps me immensely with my own growth to be challenged by fellow believers and to really think through what I am saying.
Shaun Groves says:
I’m frustrated by my inability to communicate any better than I have so far. Thanks for your patience. I’ll try once more.
There are many times when contemplating God that we are challenged to hold multiple competing ideas as true.
1. God alone has the power to produce godliness in me.
Paul called the Galatians foolish for believing otherwise:
Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
Romans 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
I lack the power to save myself from the penalty of sin and I certainly lack the power necessary to save myself from the power of sin. I cannot produce love, joy, peace, patience, etc. God alone sanctifies.
2. I play an active role in my own sanctification.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Philippians 3:12-14 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
How do we reconcile these two?
Regeneration is monergistic. It is the work of God alone. But sanctification is synergistic – the work of God with man.
Man “abides” in Christ, “sows to the spirit”, “walks in the Spirit.” God gives man the desire and ability to do so and produces fruit when he does. To be clear, Paul is correct when he says “nothing good dwells in me – that is in my flesh” (Romans 7). The desire and ability we have are not from our flesh but from our spirit or new nature.
Christians are dual nature beings. Sanctification is the process of killing off the old nature (mortification) and developing the new nature to full glorification. Or, as the Westminster shorter catechism puts it so well, sanctification is “the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.”
Shaun Groves says:
Spiritual disciplines such as solitude, silence, meditation, memorization, fasting and simplicity (to name a few) have a biblical and church history as human endeavors useful to God in His process of sanctification. Prayer runs beneath and through them all.
1 Timothy 4:7-8 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
Jude 1:19-21 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
These are not the only tools God employs in sanctification. Christian community and perseverance in trials are two more that come to mind immediately as useful to God for “forming” us “into the image of the Son.”
Romans 5:24 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.
This formation process stretches from regeneration to glorification. In other words, it is lifelong.
So a marriage between even the most prayerful individuals is a marriage between two imperfect individuals in the process of sanctification together. In theory then, this man and woman, can pray desperately one moment and sin in another. It is far more unlikely if prayer is ongoing but not impossible. Sin is always a possibility for all regenerate but not yet glorified Christians.
This is my understanding today, laid out step by step in the clearest way I can. At what point do you and I diverge in our beliefs along the way?
Thank you for pushing me to better understanding of what I believe and why and for sharpening my communication skills along the way.
Paul Davis says:
I’m actually enjoying this quite thoroughly now. I’ll have to respond in more detail later because it’s late here on the east coast, but here is the verse that I think will unify us:
1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Yes, we work alongside God as his fellow workers, but we are nothing. Only God who makes things grow matters.
Just to hit on the praying Christian choosing to sin part…I am of the belief that if one is truly in prayer, remaining / abiding in Christ, he will not give into temptation. God provides a way out and for the one is who constantly looking for God, he will see the way out. So the less a person prays, the less God dwells in them, and the more they sin. The more they pray, the more God (Holy Spirit) dwells in them, and the less they sin. We will still sin as long as we have some sinful nature left in us, but slowly we should be replacing that sinful nature with the Spirit.
Here’s the proof and you can look up the Greek, this is how it is written: 1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
WOW
Shaun Groves says:
Be sure and study all of 1 John and research the stoic heresy he was addressing.
When taken with the whole, you may reach a different conclusion about the proper interpretation and application of 1 John 3:6. Your hermeneutics teacher might have a problem with you interpreting it apart from 1 John 1:8…and the rest of the book, the Bible, and historical context, right? ; )
1 John 1:8 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Shaun Groves says:
Let me take your statement line by line. Your words are in bold.
Just to hit on the praying Christian choosing to sin part…I am of the belief that if one is truly in prayer, remaining / abiding in Christ, he will not give into temptation. God provides a way out and for the one is who constantly looking for God, he will see the way out.
I do believe there is always “a way out.” But since prayer (or anything else) does not remove the sinful nature from us (completely and totally mortify it) it can not be said that the praying man will always see it. And when he does, he may not always choose it. A man actively engaged in sanctification, I would agree, is more likely to see it and choose it but it is not true that he always will.
So the less a person prays, the less God dwells in them, and the more they sin.
No. God always dwells in the Christian. It is not His presence that changes.
The more they pray, the more God (Holy Spirit) dwells in them, and the less they sin
No. This is not true. Prayer does not increases the amount of God in me and refusing to pray does not evict God either. God is present in every believer.
We will still sin as long as we have some sinful nature left in us, but slowly we should be replacing that sinful nature with the Spirit.
Yes. I’d lowercase “spirit” in that last sentence and clarify that the Spirit and spirit are already present. So I’m not replacing the sinful nature with the spirit. God is killing off the sinful nature’s influence and increasing the spirit’s influence, increasing my dependence upon one and killing my dependence on the other.
What you’re describing in this last part is progressive sanctification. This, I believe, has scriptural support. What you described previously (and often throughout this discussion) is what the Pentecostal tradition has called “entire sanctification” – or the total mortification of the sin nature at some point in this life. I don’t believe that can be supported by the whole of scripture.
Sanctification is progressive and synergistic. God working with man to form Christ in the man over time. Until man’s sin nature is completely forever dead (glorification) man can sin.
A man taking his medicine will get better even though he may not be well after the first dose. His healing is progressive. So it cannot be said that a man on medicine will not have a fever. He may as long as the sickness is in him. There is no cure-all this side of heaven. But there is tremendous healing.
Paul Davis says:
ok. you’re opinions on scripture are sounding a little condescending. 😉 “be sure to study all of 1 John…” Obviously I understand the basics of contextualizing a verse. Obviously I never said that a person would NEVER sin. That’s so Romans 3:23. What John is saying is “continue to sin” meaning “repeatedly sin the same way” meaning “not learn from their mistakes, etc.” Don’t play the historical context card, either, because that’s just an easy way out of any verse in the Bible…”That was written for a specific time period, etc.” So I am quite aware of what 1 John says and believe he meant it. He said the same thing that Paul says right after the fruits of the Spirit…
This applies to your quoting me line by line…to which you said, “But since prayer (or anything else) does not remove the sinful nature from us (completely and totally mortify it)” Interesting use of the word “mortify” because I think that is synonymous with “crucify” as Paul used it here:
Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
The reason the sinful nature isn’t completely mortified in any of us is because we let Satan back in repeatedly because we do not cling closely enough to God. How did Jesus live perfectly? He clung perfectly to the Father. He did not have “divine” help in living his life without sin…”he was tempted, just as we are, yet was without sin.” No handicap here. Just a man, who was fully man, clinging to his Father, and living a sin-free life. The Bible fully backs up what I was saying.
Furthermore, you said, “No. God always dwells in the Christian. It is not His presence that changes.” Actually, it does. Christ enables the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, but it never says in scripture that each of us have the same amount of the Spirit or of God’s presence. The Apostles prayed in Acts 4 after receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2…what happened in Acts 4? 4:31, “After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.” Here the Apostles were FILLED AGAIN with the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is not something that dwells in each person equally. It is in the person in relation to how much time that person spends with him. Jesus had more of the Spirit because he made more of an effort to spend with the Spirit/Father than anyone. Those who spend more time with the Spirit have more of the Spirit. This obviously applies to your 2nd negation as well, “No. This is not true.God is present in every believer.” Yes, but not equally. The belief that we each “have the Spirit in the same measure” is bad doctrine. Find me a verse that says something other than “We have the same Spirit.” Yes-the same Spirit, but not in the same measure. That’s like saying we have the same amount of Faith. We all have faith, but not equally.1Cor12:1-11,Ro12:6
Paul Davis says:
Furthermore, a Christian can lose his salvation by turning his back on Christ after believing and accepting grace according to Hebrews 6. Therefore, it supports even more that the Spirit is not in a person in the same measure. These Christians have “suppressed the Spirit” which Paul urges us not to do in 1 Thess 5 “Do not quench the Spirit.” These are verses related to the measure of the Spirit that each person has. It is not equal.
I agree with your points about marriage from the comment 1-28-11, 9:48pm. We are all imperfect and can all sin at any time, however, those who are in Christ have “crucified the sinful nature” and should have a lesser tolerance for sin if they are indeed remaining in Christ.
In fact, it would be easy and Biblical to draw a straight line and on one end you would have your quantity of sin or sinfulness or frequency of sins and on the other end you would have your closeness to God which is directly proportionate to your time spent in prayer. We move back and forth on this line throughout our Christian life, but the closer we get to the “God-end” of the line, the less sin we have in our lives. If you have the same amount of sinfulness in you throughout your life, you are obviously not getting any closer to God, and when you get closer to God, you should be able to avoid many sins. The obedience to Christ part goes up as well when you get closer to the “God-end” of the line because the Spirit is stronger and helps you. Those who try to live like Christ on their own and continue to sin, well, they have neither seen him or known him as 1 John would say.
That’s all for now. Don’t know if I replied to everything, but my little girl is waking up from her nap and I must rescue her.
Shaun Groves says:
I’m done, Paul. We could go on like this forever: you bringing up verses that support your ideas on sanctification, me answering them by repeating the answers I’ve given so far. You’ve reached the end of my usefulness!
I admire your passion.
I’ve laid out what I believe and supported that belief with scripture as you’ve asked. Thankful for the opportunity to do so.
Paul Davis says:
Thanks Shaun for great discussion. Hope everything is going well at WellSpring and on your touring. God bless.
Jim says:
To be fair to Tim Tebow, he doesn’t claim to pray for his victories, he just prays. He is a prince of a guy and he often tells everybody football games are not that important. A bigger target would be Facing the Giants where God hates the opposing team so much they get disqualified after they won and God’s team goes to the championship on a technicality. GAG!