Shaun Groves
Radio talkshow host and author Dave Ramsey wrote an open letter to the Occupy Movement in which he argued envy is behind the desire to raise taxes and redistribute wealth. The Huffington Post’s David Dunn, PhD responded, making the case that a Christian who does not back tax-payer funded government assistance to the poor does not understand “the kingdom” and is not following Jesus.
So, if I agree with Dave I’m not a good Christian. If I agree with David I’m envious. Thankfully, despite the extremism, the two Daves serve up delicious food for thought, challenging me to think about the logistics of bringing Good News to the poor in America.
The Redistribution of Wealth
I do believe in wealth redistribution. Not because of my envy but God’s goal.
Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.” 2 Corinthians 8:13-15
Our good God has rained down manna enough for everyone, and has commanded his children who have more than their daily bread to pass the extra biscuits. Our obedient generosity proves the goodness of God to the world – not just that we give but how, why and to whom we give.
The great redistribution is the charge of all God followers who voluntarily, without coercion or command, joyfully! give in response to God’s mercy.
That said, I sure don’t mind if those in government – even those outside the family of God – want to help us out. If their policies lead where the kingdom leads they’re worth considering. But…
Means & Ends Of Wealth Redistribution
This is the hangup for me. America is not a democracy but a representative republic. We citizens do not vote on every tax increase or every expenditure, only on the representatives who will cast those votes.
If I got to vote on such weighty matters I would need more than vague reassurance that the poor would be helped before I’d vote “yes” on a tax increase for that purpose. I love the poor and understand fully why the kingdom is good news for them, but perhaps I could love them better, bring more of the kingdom their way, by giving my money (and more) elsewhere.
Before they’d get my yes my government would need to prove the efficacy of its means, not just the compassion if its intended ends. If it could do so I would willingly, joyfully sacrifice to bring sight to the blind, release the captives and guarantee freedom for the oppressed.
But I do not believe such a case could be made at the moment. And I am not alone in my skepticism. Social science is not on the side of America’s social programs. They are not often enough developmental in nature and holistic in scope. Presently, there is not the capacity – and perhaps not the will – to investigate the causes of individual and community poverty, to move beyond pruning despair to digging it out by the roots.
Dependence and abuse has been claimed by social scientists as rampant in our one-size-fits-all programs over at least the last 20 years in America, while everyday heroes like Geoffrey Canada have proven that an emphasis on holistic more-personalized development can release a child, a family and a community from poverty. And with greater efficiency.
I’m not on Dave Ramsey’s side. He doesn’t express it clearly and thoroughly enough in his single blog post for me to even consider taking it. But I cannot agree wholly with David Dunn either. It is as potentially harmful to the poor to “just do something” about poverty as it is to do little or nothing at all. Our means matter as much as our hoped-for ends.
I’m thankful to both Daves for giving me reason to pause and think through such important matters. God, help us all help all.
Seek kingdom ends with effective means locally in Nashville by serving and giving to The Well Family Assistance Center, Nashville Rescue Mission or the refugee resettlement services of Catholic Charities of Tennessee. Invest in the most effective means I know of for ending the cycle of poverty around the world by serving Compassion International.
MainlineMom aka Sarah says:
Yes, yes, YES!!! You just articulated EXACTLY how I have been feeling about this whole issue for the past few years. It’s sooooo complicated. I really WISH the redistribution of wealth could be effectively placed into the hands of those who would do it correctly but all evidence has shown me that for the most part the our government fails at this.
I also do believe that as faulty as capitalism can be, it creates a lot of jobs and opportunities that would not exist if business builders were severely limited in their growth.
BrianV says:
I’d add to that mix that as Christians, we should be decent enough to consider people of other persuasions as well. “Because God says so in the Bible,” doesn’t hold up unless we want to eliminate the part of the constitution says we can’t use a single establishment of religion as justification for our laws.
In this case, I think redistribution of wealth can be supported as a common well-being measure. Unless the system distributes the wealth fairly the first time, fairness requires redistribution. And a large percentage of economists agree that the market requires offsets to maintain its health–and support redistribution of wealth as one of these offsets.
So while, as Christians, we may find it Biblical, we are able to bring it to the table of our modern, multi-religious government because we can support it with more than just Bible texts.
Fawn says:
Wonderfully articulated. Beautifully said. I could not have said it better myself. Thank you for your thought into this matter and for pulling us away from the two extremes and bringing us closer to the center (which is where we will most often find God).
Thomas D says:
To Dave Ramsey
If helping or serving someone is just a means to prospering yourself is that then Kingdom living and building? When people; corporations or nations get wealthy, yet feel no responsibility towards God, or concern for those by whom they became wealthy, are they then loving their neighbor’s as themselves? Pursuing social justice is so ingrained in the Scriptures, and specifically the gospel, that you would have to be Spiritually blind and or Biblically illiterate not to see the heart of God crying out for it (Luke 14:12-14).
That said redistribution is complex and as Shaun alluded to direct democracy does not exist. And thus trusting a representative government to do what is efficacious; expecially on behalf of the Kingdom’s agenda; would be folly. For as riches increase, so do the policitial camps and representatives who are willing to serve that agenda, in order to share in the wealth. And thus economic injustice and social inequality often grows through them rather than being alleviated by them. Therefore government reforms (of whatever sort) though potentially liberating and equalizing a society, are not the sole answer. They can affect real and positive change when under a positive and sound Christian and ethical influence. But they are not the ones charged with Kingdom building, we as believers are. Therefore where direct democracy does exist is with each of us. In how we treat others; in how we honor God; and in how we redistribute our wealth as we are moved in our hearts to do so; even how we go about doing this; is all up to us as individual believers. I’ll let government representatives debate my tax rate (for ultimately they are God’s servants in this Rom. 13:6); But I will use my God given liberty and prosperiety to pursue His Kingdom’s agenda, with all my will, heart and desire.
David Dunn says:
This is a great response! Let me recommend the work of the economist Rebecca Blank, who has some very interesting suggestions about some very practical ways government does help the poor and can help them more. Aside from that, I will only respond with thanks.
Shaun Groves says:
Thanks for the recommendation, David. I’ve added Rebecca’s most recent book to the carousel of social science related books in the carousel at the end of the post too. I’ll definitely give it a read. Thanks.
Thomas D says:
Thanks’ David for your generous assessment. I’ve had some free time and read some of her papers on-line at the Brookings Institute. I’ll likely get to her Book in the New Year, again thanks
jennibell says:
Thank you so much for this incredibly insightful post. I just went and downloaded Geoffrey Canada’s study/story. . .anxious to listen to it. Just the other day my husband and I were having a discussion about this very topic and in the end I said “I’m just a capitalist and conservative to my very core. It’s how God molded me.” The general conversation was about our public education system (I live in TN too) and how over-involved the government is in it. . .hence my “capitalist” comment. . .we want to have some choice in our children’s schools — currently we homeschool but would like to send them to a private Christian academy. . .the problem there is only the “rich” can afford it and we don’t think that’s fair. We pay taxes for education, why can’t we decide where that tax money goes? Just another government social program (I believe in our public education system — I have a MA in education!) that I think could be better utilized to help the poor/disadvantaged as well as the middle-and-upper classes. And it goes on and on. Again, thank you for a thoughtful post that I am anxious to share with others.
Marian Green says:
Thank you for getting inside my head and making a hearty stew from all the muddled ingredients. I agree wholeheartedly, but never would have been able to write state it so well.
Here’s my dilemma: you used the word obedience and joyfully in the idea of giving and distributing wealth. I absolutely agree…but it gives rise to some internal and problematic ideas I can fully articulate.
You have the giants–like Oprah, the Gates Foundation, other celebrity charitable organizations…and they are very powerful in their giving and helping of individuals domestically and globally. Without their super-riches, such organizations may not exist. Also, with equal distribution of ALL assets, we start to lose the drive for increase, the conviction to release, and the journey of becoming kingdom minded the way you and your family has over the years….
What I have a hard time rendering in my spiritual life is that Jesus did not just come to save the poor, but he came with the same measure of love and grace and compassion for the rich–and demanding their wealth in the name of Jesus isn’t very loving, instead, it is offensive, and shortens the length of learning and the fire of refining in their own lives.
I say all this with caution, as I remember reading Amos for the first time and asking myself if I was a fat cow of Bashan. My husband and I are pastor and family, adoptive family, single income family. He’s from Canada and we constantly converse on the right and good Canada does with their socialized medicine up there. I just am very very cautious with the movement that has revitalized once again–and if I’m not mistaken, it is a repeat of previous notions that were present in the early 90s, the 70s, and so on? Thanks for the provoking post. I enjoyed it very much.
stephanie @ providence handmade says:
Shaun, thank you for articulating what I cannot, and Marian, you too. So well said.
Marian Green says:
Oh, good night. I wrote a book. Sorry.
Ethan says:
Oh, Shaun, thank you for this! I agree with you entirely. And that phrase you used about moving beyond pruning to dig poverty out by the roots… excellent.
Jonathan Blundell says:
I agree.
My only hang-up is the way things are right now, there’s no safety net for folks. I think that’s what has so many in the Occupy Movement up in arms.
Many followed the rules, followed the system only to get punched in the gut by the system when it collapsed and while there was a safety net for large corporations, there hasn’t been one for Joe Main Street. I don’t think most are really shunning capitalism, they’re shunning corporatism. And the favortism of politicians towards corporations.
So yes, I totally agree that we should care for the under-resourced in our neighborhood and in our global neighborhood but I also think there are times the government should step in and help when we forsake our duty to care for our brothers and sisters.
The main reason we have the social system (public schools, public hospitals, public universities) we have today in America is because so many churches stopped looking outside their walls and the government stepped in to fill the gap.
If the Church would rise up and care for all – there’d be no need for government handouts.
“When we truly discover how to love our neighbor as our self, Capitalism will not be possible and Marxism will not be necessary.” – Shane Claiborne
Robin Dance says:
Mercy, Shaun….
There’s no way to sip this through a straw…it’s meat and potatoes and it demands a sharp knife.
Chewin’ on it now (and sifting though the engaging comments, too); hearty food for thought.
Dunn’s responded…I wonder if Ramsey will chime in….
Michael says:
Stealing from one person to give to another whom we may find “more deserving” or more needy is always wrong, no matter the intentions.
dean says:
i’m currently reading “Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger” by Ronald J. Sider. Originally written in the 70’s and updated as recently as 2005. He speaks to this matter compassionately and eloquently in that book and several others. One of the most convicting reads I’ve had in a long time!
And thanks for a new reading list to start working on!
brad says:
Nice post on a complicated issue. Though 2 Corinthians 8 pertains to believers as far as I know. I think the more pertinent reference would be the admonishments to remember the poor, or the warnings in the parable of the sheep and the goats. My desire is to see the church rise up and take care of the poor, the widows and orphans, so that government assistance just isn’t needed.
Shaun Groves says:
I was quoting 2 Corinthians to support the claim that redistribution is a goal of God’s. I went on to say that goal is accomplished by God’s people BUT that I personally don’t mind those outside the church helping us out if…
Does that help clarify?
This was possibly the hardest post I’ve ever written…and rewritten and rewritten. Such a complex issue and I’m still (always) trying to figure out what a Christian perspective is on it all. The role of Christians in a democratic society just isn’t spelled out in scripture is it? So much easier if it was.
Jason says:
I hold this same view. The government always has strings attached to things they do. The Church needs to step it up.
John says:
You can try to justify it as much as you want, but Ramsey is exactly right.
Robert Jacobs says:
I believe that GOD calls us to redistribute our wealth to others, BUT, notice I mentioned US, not the United States Government. Recent history has shown that the federal government is not well suited to redistribute wealth effectively, that is why we are in a fiscal mess (reckless spending). I would argue that the wealthy (not the media portrayal of fat cats on wall street) would be more than willing to have their tax rates raised IF they thought the revenue would be spent wisely. Throwing money at programs that don’t produce positive results is not a good use of resources. GOD calls upon us to be good stewards or managers of his resources; the definition of wealth redistribution as we know it today is not a good mechanism to manage GOD’s stuff well.
Dee says:
I actually do not trust a purposefully godless and even anti-god organization to redistribute my wealth for me, or for anyone else. I don’t think that’s what Paul or God had in mind at all! The point is that we should be helping the poor out of our own freedom & ability to do so. As the govt takes from us, that ability is proportionally lessened. If you look at what the Bible says on what the function of govt should be, it includes punishing criminals and military protection, and that’s it. No mention is made of helping the poor when it comes to govt. it is specifically talking about the church in that passage and in others. As govt. programs increase, charitable giving decreases, every time.
If you’re familiar with Ramsey’s teaching, he’s a huge proponent of giving! I definitely agree with him. 🙂
Dee says:
Also just wanted to say that extremism is needed when you’re on the side of truth. It’s not a dirty word. 😉