Shaun Groves
It’s been said that God made man in His own image, and ever since then man’s been returning the favor.
A type “A” personality spanked as a child creates a theology/parenting program that validates his own priorities and upbringing.
A soldier and patriot creates her own theology/politics that validates her own nationalism and occupation.
A skilled artist creates a theology/caste system of sorts that elevates his own creations and belittles others’.
A business major creates a theology/church that must be as measurable and institutional as a corporation.
I was thinking through all this – writing about it for a magazine – when I realized something. I read a lot of blogs every month and this month I’ve noticed many blogging pastors and worship leaders posting their on-line orgasms over the iPhone. A phone. That costs $600. That’s disturbing enough. The iPhone does what our current pieces of plastic and circuitry do, only it’s newer and different…and cool.
But then I noticed something. I’m wondering if you notice the same thing. These guys lusting after the iPhone via their blogs have a history of blogging their purchase or want of the next big thing – the next expensive unnecessary thing. Don’t they? Running shoes. Over-priced jeans. Exotic vacations. A new car. Many of these bloggers routinely write about stuff that’s “cool,” stuff they wish they could have, stuff they just bought, stuff I then wish I could have.
And I wonder if there’s a connection between…no, it can’t be. No, I do wonder. I’ll say it.
These guys I’m thinking of are all working for churches spending large amounts of time and cash and personnel on an “event” that has all the bells and whistles. They use the same words to describe their church that marketers use to sell them all the crap they buy and don’t need: different, innovative, cool, hip, new, style…and the church version of all those words: “relevant”.
Could it be that these guys have concocted a theology/church that reflects their own values and validates their own habits? Is that possible?
A consumer obsessed with being current and cool creates a theology/church that necessitates buying the newest bestest stuff on the market…for the sake of the gospel. Could that be what birthed the event church?
And to be fair: An overly critical idealistic uncool hippie blogger wary of all things the least bit corporate creates a theology/church in his mind that is egalitarian and socialistic and not at all cool – and fights with anyone who doesn’t want to create the same thing. But I’m listening for now.
Am I wrong on this?
andy says:
Shaun,
I just added you to my blog roll on Saturday. I love your heart, brother!
Thabiti Anyabwile has been blogging on Mere Church over at Pure Church. I love his heart also.
We’ve been socialized into a consuming culture and imported it into the church, baptizing it as sacred as its come in the door. Oh that we looked inside our hearts and examined our sin as often as we lust after gadgets. Oh that Jesus was celebrated with the passion of being able to watch YouTube videos on a 3 inch screen.
Continue thinking and praying and blogging, Shaun! Many of us are only sleeping and need a nudge to be awakened. I get those nudgings from you and others in the blogosphere. I thank God for you.
andy
Shawn Bashor says:
I guess my friend Mike really put it in perspective when he said “It’s not just the $500/$600 you pay for the dadgum phone…it’s the $5000 you pay for the service fees over a two year period.” that’ll make you feel a little better about it.
anne jackson says:
this is the best post i have read in a long time.
andy shepherd says:
infusing technology into the church without extreme caution can create a damaging dynamic effecting the slide of a great amount of church leadership to confuse gadget with gospel. [phew]
the businessman has been creating theology that appeals to his own pragmatism for a good while in my service, and so this issue is particularly personal and sensitive to me.
i liked your opening statements, too, and find them particularly helpful when considering oppression and/or feminist theology.
Joni says:
maybe i’m just a overly critical idealistic uncool hippie blog-reader, but amen amen amen.
Tracy says:
You are so right on with your comments, Shaun. We are playing a numbers game at churches. The money we spend for things that happen inside the walls of the church is, many times, much more than that which is spent on actually “being” the church. It is all about attracting the next “lost” person to us.
It is really ironic, though. Don’t we already have tons of “lost” people inside already? Shouldn’t we spend a little time thinking about our own relationships with Christ and not others?
BTW. . . check out http://www.velocityculture.com. There is a conversation with Ron Martoia about Static that started today. Chime in!!!
Matt says:
Shaun,
I’ve been struggling with the whole “event” thing for some time. Why do we need all this stuff? Is the Gospel not enough? Is the Truth not enough? Must it be talked about for months in advance, revealed from behind huge black curtains, and come in a shiny new package?
Peter preached a simple sermon at Pentecost, and thousands were saved. When’s the last time that happened at “Megachurch Event?”
But I struggle with all this, too. Got a free 2G Nano, and now I want a 4G.
Seth Ward says:
“A phone. That costs $600. That’s disturbing enough. The iPhone does what our current pieces of plastic and circuitry do, only it’s newer and different…and cool.”
He types from his 1,500 dollar apple computer with the built in camera on the moniter… (After tax and the insurance.)
All in all, I think you are right. Consumerism is the driving force behind all things American and that includes the church and we’ve got the theology, the church bathrooms with marble countertops, the best selling books and rows of CD’s at Wal-Mart to back it up.
But as for me, I would be happy meeting for church in an igloo, a tepee or a cow pasture….
(thinking)
… and I would still want the iPhone. Do I need the iPhone? Crap no. And I would never in a jillion years pretend that getting the iPhone has the slightest thing to do with God or his plan for my life or anyone elses.
But since you mention it, I wonder if I would feel less guilty about buying the iPhone than I do when I sell a CD that has something about God on it that should be free.
Shaun Groves says:
This is a $750 macbook pro with built in camera.
But yea…point made.
andy says:
I don’t intend to be a jerk toward Seth or anyone else, but Seth said, “I would never in a jillion years pretend that getting the iPhone has the slightest thing to do with God or his plan for my life or anyone elses.”
That is just not true. It has everything to do with other people’s lives because the money we spend on gadgets we don’t NEED is money that we have personally diverted away from providing for those who DO need (Compassion, B:W, etc.).
Until we (and I include myself) refuse to believe that our sloppy spending habits directly impact the poor, we will only be resounding gongs and clanging cymbals, bemoaning so many poor, yet doing nothing – or less than we should – about it ourselves.
I point this finger at myself maybe more than anyone here. But it is a finger that must be pointed. And these thoughts must be thought over. It isn’t enough to gloss over them because we feel a tinge of guilt and then try to pass the buck onto the next guy/girl as we rationalize our incredibly ostentatious lifestyles.
Not everyone here is a pile like me; but my guess is that there are far more of us rabid closet consumers reading this than we’d care to admit. Admitting it makes us uncomfortable because it means we’re living our lives wrongly. Well, let me be the first to say it: I am living my life wrongly when it comes to money. I spend how I wish with little thought to the Kingdom, Jesus, or anyone else. Lord, have mercy on me – a sinner. This is something I will be pursuing further, so I’m thankful for the line of thought this entry has brought out.
jonathan says:
$750 macbookpro?
I’ll go to that church! Where is it located?
Rach says:
This is something that I constantly struggle with. My husband and I have recently begun to be more comfortable with the way we live, and I have been trying as hard as possible to “do the right, godly thing” with our extra money. I spent hours researching what the Bible has to say about money and wealth and practicing stewardship.
For a while now, I have been thinking about this every spare moment I have. Until yesterday, when God revealed to me that coming up with the right, logical thing to do is still going to be sinful if I did not do it in faith, out of prompting of the Holy Spirit and out of love.
So maybe it wasn’t right that I bought my husband his $1100 macbook, but maybe it wasn’t right when I gave away that $500 check, either.
Kat says:
I agree, too often we try to find a formula rather than follow the Holy Spirit.
I’m terribly guilty of that.
So…what’s wrong with “concocting” our own theology/church that reflects our values and experiences?
Within certain absolutes, of course.
Isn’t that sort of natural…that we bring our own personalities and interests into everything we do…including our faith and the way we relate to one another?
I just think we’re all called to follow the Holy Spirit(John 3:8), where ever He may lead. Maybe that’s a life of poverty, maybe it’s to buy and iPhone, maybe it’s to call out the folks buying iPhones who shouldn’t…
Maybe it’s to have an event driven church, a home church or an internet church.
I don’t think there is one ideal church format, income level or gadget limit.
Am I off?
hollybird says:
Something about this just doesn’t resonate well within me. I thought that perhaps it was conviction, but then, I don’t think so. I don’t have an i-anything. This computer I type on is old. I have a phone that was free with my plan, doesn’t take pictures or play music or anything fancy (i even cancelled the text messaging thing because i wasn’t self controlled with it). My husband, on the other hand, has a trio phone thingy, the big ipod, a new laptop at his office (he is a minister). Yet, do I think he has missed the point? No I do not. Nor do I think our church is missing the point in our fairly new facility. There is nothing is scripture that says we can’t have material things. It’s not money that is the problem, but the LOVE of money. We try to bless others with what God has given us. We are better at it since visiting Uganda and seeing how much we take for granted. my life was changed forever because of that experience. We send to our Compassion Child.
For some reason, God has chosen to find us worthy of amazing blessings. We aren’t millionaires- probably never will be. But we do have more than we need. And I thank God for it all every single day. Because I have doesn’t mean that my heart is not right with my Daddy. And it is our joy and honor to give that away to those in need around us.
This post sounded a bit judgmental to me, and well, I am just wondering if that isn’t just as bad as the whole consumerism you talked of to begin with? Just wondering….
andy says:
Hollybird, I think Shaun’s post was most definitely judgmental, but there is nothing sinful about judging those inside the church. If that be the case, Martin Luther and the rest of the Reformers were sinners.
In fact, the American Church, by and large, is in need of some serious judging by prophetic voices. The main point of Shaun’s blog (that I took away) is that all this blogging of “cool” stuff causes his heart to violate the 10th commandment (though he didn’t say it in those words) and maybe even the 1st and/or 2nd. And, from his own experience, many of those blogging about “cool” things put on event churches.
In and of themselves, you’re right, there’s nothing wrong with event churches. But when churches (inherently Christian) and blogs written by Christians begin obscuring the gospel of Jesus Christ, then there’s a problem. There’s a problem with that church and a problem with that person. And both need to be called out for the sake of Jesus. Until we stop making excuses and begin looking at the reality of what gadgets and church shows do to our hearts (i.e. take us away from Christ), we will continue to be an irrelevant bunch of narcissists most of the time. Granted, not all are lured away from Jesus by gadgets and church shows. But many are and the inertness of the Church is proof that we’ve left Christ for other lovers.
In defense, people will often say, “Well, you can’t judge me. God knows my heart.” That’s exactly what I’m ashamed of. He sees I’ve been seduced by the world over and above His Son. I know the theology and right things to say. But Jesus knows He doesn’t have my heart. What fruit do I have to show for the last year of my life? The last 5 years? And how many gadgets have I lusted over during that time? Not everyone will agree with me. Some may feel pity for me. But for him who has ears to hear, let him hear. What I’m saying will hit right at home with some.
hollybird says:
I agree totally, Andy, that the church needs to be judged. But I guess I felt a bit judged in this post just because I may or may not want something. And I felt that my church family was judged because we have a pretty building and money to use. There is a fine line between shame and guilt, and I felt this was a little on the shaming side. I agree that many people use the phrase “God knows my heart” to get out of others calling them out on what they need redemption from. I feel the same way about how people say “I think God is telling me this” while doing something that goes against scripture. But, the fact remains that God DOES know my heart, and this happens to be one area where I feel He has control. I just don’t want to be placed in a general category with those who are lustful of gadgets and “events” just because I happen to like them or have them. Did this make any sense? It’s late and I am running on just a few hours of sleep in several days (son just had surgery- pray please).
This is good conversation though! thanks for the response.
seth ward says:
Sorry, long response alert.
Andy, interesting point, and very humbly put. And no I did not think it was rude to disagree with me. However, what we are talking about here is a grey area. Like it or not, it is grey. Meaning, there is nary a scripture that tells a man not to buy an iPhone. There is however plenty of scripture that tells you to be kind and generous. So if you aren’t kind and generous and you buy the iphone, then your problem is with your lack of being kind and generous, not the iPhone, which is inherently neither good nor evil, however expensive.
What I meant by that comment was that I don’t think that buying an Iphone or any expensive item can be theologically justified but neither can a theological case be made for NOT buying it. It all depends on motive, which makes it a grey area. True, God does care about how we spend our money but the iPhone by itself has nothing to do with God, (other than He holds all things together by his thought, including the iPhone,) therefore it buying it cannot be theologically justified or nullified unless you include motive.
I hear what you are saying about excess but I think you should be prepared to take that philosophy to the extreme because you can’t be choosy with extreme philosophies lest you become hypocritical.
That includes things like the power windows on your car, air conditioning in your house or apartment, any and all eating out, (in fact, any food that you don’t grow or water you don’t dig out of the ground yourself could be considered extravagance.) coffee, tea, driving altogether (if you can take a bus), television, your computer, a home that runs on electricity, and finally all and any cell phone devices… basically, you should become Amish.
Because whether you like it or not, the person buying the iphone just may be giving 100 times as much to ease world hunger as you or me or Shaun and do not feel that buying the iphone is sloppy shopping. And what of the person who gets the iPhone for a gift? Should they return it and send the money to Compassion? Maybe, maybe not. It is a matter of personal spirituality and between you and the Holy Spirit, (like Kat is saying) between the iphone owner and God. (What a silly sentence.)
Is the housewife who pays a bit more for the cute pants at Target instead of the frosted high-rise pipe legs they could get down at the good will for 30 cents wrong? Or the mom who buys the fancy stroller with the bike wheels instead of the cheap one that takes a rocket scientist to unfold and pack after it injures her fingers. That is between them and the Lord and I’m not about to pounce down on some lady in judgment over not wanting the high-rise pipe-legged jeans over the more expensive but better functioning stroller.
So even though my statement about “God caring about the iPhone” was a little broad, I said that feeling that most of what is going on with the whole “does God care if we buy an iPhone issue” is good old-fashioned jealousy. Most of us here want one but cannot afford one and even if we could, “why, we would spend that money on the poor.” Which helps us feel better and gives us a higher ground to bash the guys who have it. (All said as they finish watching the tutorial on Youtube and get depressed at its 600 dollar price tag that momma won’t go for.)
The only rules I might be tempted to dole out to a buyer facing this moral dilemma is:
If you cannot afford the Iphone, then you shouldn’t own it. If you start to worship the iPhone you should get rid of it. If you can afford it while still being twice as generous to others, then I see no reason to not buy it. It has several useful functionalities, besides just the general aesthetic pleasure of purchasing anything so ingeniously designed. (Personally, I bargain shop and I am a chinch. So I’ll wait for the price to lower, for Cingular to offer a deal, or buy it on Ebay later.)
So we should be cautious of standing on our pillars of righteousness and casting down judgment upon those irresponsible heathens who waste their money on such frivolities and afterwards we go home and crank the air conditioning all summer racking up over 1000 bucks extra for a 9 degree creature comfort and watch selections from our extensive DVD collection that probably cost us well over 1000 smackers.
Shane S. says:
It sounds right to me.
Do you think we can still be (ahem) “relevant” without all that “cool” crap? Because I am certainly willing to try.
C.J. Bergmen says:
Seth, I think you are right on.
Melinda says:
OK, Mr. Groves. Is this your way of throwing a fit because you couldn’t get an iphone? (j/k)
I attend a “Mega-Church” As a matter a fact it was at this “Mega-church” that I came to know the Lord. I love my “mega-church”. Because it is there that I learned that God loved me! It is there that I am learning to Fear God! It is there that I am learning Holiness.
Yes, we have more gods here in the US then India does. But ours are called TV, computers, self, spouses, children, foods,and yes even iphones. But having any one of these things does not make a person less Godly. It’s when these things have control over you and you lust after them. I mean I wouldn’t wait in line for one, but if I found that I had the money for one I would buy one for my husband (he loves Apple). But that’s just me. I like to give stuff, I like to see people’s faces when they get things. And not just the things they need, but the things they want as well. I think that it’s that way with God too. He likes to reward His children. He likes to see us blessed. Why should only the worldly people have nice stuff?
BTW I can think of lots of ways that a person could use an Iphone for our Lord.
Shaun, you remind me a lot of Keith Green. Have you ever heard his teaching “The Man Behind the Message”? If not and you want to listen I could send you the link. Let me know.
Los says:
I’m going to hell.
Tomorrow morning I am driving to the Apple Store in Rancho Cucamunga and buying myself my iPhone. Even after this post made me sweat, think, pray, and cuss. Which is what Shaun tends to do to me in his writing. And which is why I read this blog everyday.
But in the end, at the end of all the lusting, all the blogging, all the debating, I am still going to buy it.
Why?
Because I sold my XBox 360 and all my games to a kid in the youth group and I now have the cash.
Am I going to witness to the Apple Store employee who I buy it from?
Probably not.
Am I going to keep sponsoring Wanda from the Dominican Republic next month? Yea.
Am I any less a Christ follower because I bought the thing? I don’t think so. Although by reading some of these comments you would think I am less than.
None the less. This is why I come get me some Shlog everyday. Because at least when I am standing in line tomorrow, I will feel bad.
Please note and insert the sarcasm where needed.
This has actually been one of the best threads I have read in months.
Los
Becky says:
I see buying an iPhone along the same lines as driving a Hummer. It’s all about image. It’s a very expensive version of something that most other people have less expensive versions of. It’s eye candy, pure and simple. And I do have a problem with pastors, in particular, having an iPhone. Everyone in the world knows how much they cost. How in the world could a pastor teach on a topic like sacrificial giving with an iPhone in his pocket and not be as hypocritical as the Pharisees??
Anyway, at the speed with which Apple is developing and launching new products, I’m sure whatever outrageously expensive electronic gadget they come up with next will be available soon to perpetuate this materialistic feeding frenzy.
Shaun Groves says:
The main thought behind the post was that we ALL have a tendency to create a God/theology/church/politic/value system that validates who we are and how we live.
That’s not to say that the God/theology/church/politic/value system we “create” isn’t true in part or in whole.
Brant has blogged about how we process new ideas. He’s said we decide when we hear something new if that new idea validates what we already think or goes against it. If it validates what we already believe we accept the new idea and if it doesn’t we reject it.
I think he’s right.
Many of us go to churches, in general, whose methods and decor and theology etc validate who we already are. And if we are the once creating that church (or charged with that task as “pastors”) then, yes, I think we create a church that validates who we are and what we already value.
When I sat in worship planing meetings at a mega-church in my early twenties I pushed for more current music because – surprise – as a young guy in love with music and clueless about what the “worship” meant biblically, this approach validated my values and interests.
Is it really all that controversial to suggest that when a guy in love with gadgetry, the new, the best, the biggest, the cool, is on staff at a church it MIGHT be his tendency to build a church experience or others that hinges upon gadgetry, the new, the best, the biggest, and the cool? Is that really such a preposterous assertion?
My mistake was bringing the iPhone into the post. Apparently too sacred a golden calf to tip.
The iPhone was brought up as the catalyst for making me think along these lines. I noticed that a lot of these pastors and worship pastors are blogging about it, counting down the days, persuading others to buy it, teaching them how to cancel their old cellular contracts to get one. Saying the phone itself seemed like a waste of money was more of a personal aside – a rant – that wasn’t the core of my thought in this post. That was just poor writing on my part – unfocused. Apologies.
But, while we’re on the topic…No, I don’t know how much enough is. I’ve said that here before. And, no, I don’t think having money is evil. But I don’t think we get off easy by clinging to the “love of money” verse either. How do we know what we love? Is it what we spend most of our time on? The average American man spends more time working than their parents did and less time with their kids – less than 7 minutes a day in conversation (which includes stuff like “pass the salt.”) Is it what we get pissed about being asked to let go of? I’ve seen that on the road as I ask Christians to give up $32 to save a life or in these comments where some of thou dost protest too much NOT to love money.
I don’t live my office chair. Not at all. And if you were to blog that I should give my office chair away because there is a man forced to work sitting on a concrete floor for eight hours a day, well, I’d give it up in a flash. No angst. No problem.
The presence of such angst at me suggesting that an iPhone may be a waste of money, a high priced replacement for a satisfactory phone we already own makes me wonder: I either communicated poorly and the WAY I spoke and not WHAT I spoke has ticked some folks off and confused others….OR…well, love is in the air…
shaunfan says:
Interesting topic and responses. I don’t necessarily have an issue with a pastor having an iPhone. I think the point about using it for ministry is somewhat relevant (although I didn’t realize how expensive the monthly service fee was), and all Christians are called to be good stewards of God’s gifts and the point about money not being bad, just an overly indulgent love of money (or worship of money and things over God) is more the issue.
Melinda is making some interesting points in defense of “mega-church” mentality. I think after reading all of the responses, I am leaning towards her way of thinking although with the caveat that not everyone I saw waiting in line for an iPhone (including the mayor of Philadelphia-John Street which I thought was totally inappropriate) is thinking that way unfortunately.
Kevin
Los says:
Becky. What would you say to a worship pastor leading worship with a 3000 dollar piece of wood hanging around his neck?
I agree with Shaun. The iPhone part of the post hit a nerve with most and the rest of the post was not focused on. Because he basically could have inserted “Carlos” instead of “a lot of these pastors and worship pastors”. Not that he was calling me out in particular, but I felt convicted. WHUCH was the intention of the post. I assume. And I think that it is OK. Of all the bloggers out there I cannot talk about calling people out.
So. Back to Shaun’s original idea, which once again is hidden in iPhoneness…
“Is it really all that controversial to suggest that when a guy in love with gadgetry, the new, the best, the biggest, the cool, is on staff at a church it MIGHT be his tendency to build a church experience or others that hinges upon gadgetry, the new, the best, the biggest, and the cool? Is that really such a preposterous assertion?”
I would say Absolutely not. This assertion is not only legit, it needs to be spoken of. And as one of the pastors working in one of those churches, I am in need of these conversations.
Los