Shaun Groves
I gave the class a biblical definition of justice in four parts: Deliverance of the oppressed into freedom. Deliverance of outcasts into community. Deliverance of the poor into enough. And…
“The fourth would open up a can of worms I can’t put back together in one class,” I said. “But three is enough for now.”
When class dismissed one minister stuck around, waited until the crowd dissipated to ask me. “What’s the fourth thing – the one you wouldn’t tell us?”
I toed the ground, bit my lip, searched the back of my eyelids for an answer. Then I just blurted it quickly, like ripping the bandage from a wound.
“Deliverance from violence into equality.”
It’s been more than a decade since the Twin Towers collapsed but we still haven’t healed. Our fathers, sons and daughters, neighbors and friends still fight.
And some Americans will fight anyone who speaks of peace. Even in hushed tones to a crowd of one under a steeple.
The only time I’ve ever been threatened with violence? After preaching on the blessedness of peacemaking.
There were no threats today though. Just honest questions. And my honest answer: “I don’t know.”
I don’t know how to stop terrorists. I don’t know what to do if someone breaks into my house. I don’t know what I’d do if you aimed a gun at my child. I don’t know. But Jesus said…
“So are you a pacifist like Ghandi?”
I’m not, I explained. Not like Ghandi. Martin Luther King Jr and the Civil Rights movement in America has impacted me more. But mostly its the words of Jesus that have unclenched my fist. Jesus told his disciples to love their enemies. I don’t know how to love someone while trying to kill them.
He poked the scab, reliving that September morning when 3000 Americans died while news cameras rolled. Violence seemed just in the aftermath. And I too remember. I remember the words of Jerry Falwell; remember feeling a great big Amen well up inside me, nodding along: “Blow them all away in the name of the Lord.”
Then I recalled for the minister another moment from our nation’s history. I reminded him about dogs let loose on crowds in Memphis. About firehoses unleashed on silent marchers. About little girls blown up while sitting in their Sunday best. About fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, neighbors and friends hanged by their necks from trees. For the color of their skin.
“What if most black Christians in America then interpreted Jesus’ words the way most white Christians in America do now? What if they believed violence was holy and just when used to repay terror, to stop future violence?”
I don’t know what to do about Islamic fundamentalism or Jewish teens abducted by Palestinians or Israeli missiles launched into West Bank neighborhoods or North Korean rocket tests. I don’t know a lot.
But I know the answer to that question. What if Rev.King believed what most of us believe? A lot of white people would have died. Not just the ones wearing bedsheets and burning crosses. Restaurant owners, bus drivers, school teachers, preachers, policemen, politicians…and anyone else who behaved violently or stood by while others did. My parents. My grandparents. Yours too.
Deliverance out of violence into equality. Easier to believe when we’re the enemy being loved.
Brad Richardson says:
To me the answer is simple, but not easy. The reason we are told to give place to wrath is that God will judge in the end, and He is much more qualified. If our goal and purpose in life is the furtherance of God’s Kingdom then we return good for evil. If our goal and purpose is my own safety and prosperity, then I return evil for evil…out of fear maybe. It is costly to live like Christ and, like you, when put in certain situations I’m not sure how I’d respond. I do know how I hope I’d respond. I also hope I never have to find out.
alexgreen says:
Shaun, do you think there is a cultural difference that means the issue you just highlighted is more prevalent in the US than the UK? I haven’t met many UK Christians that are in favour of any kind of violence or war on any grounds. Maybe its just the circles I mix with?
Shaun Groves says:
Yes. Culture impacts all of us right?
Attitudes about violence among Christians in Canada are quite a bit different from ours in the U.S. Same is true in many of the developing countries I’ve visited. American theology in this area has followed cultural norms for sure, the biggest shift happening in the lead up to WWI.
Kris Camealy says:
I don’t know a lot. I don’t know how to answer these questions, or even to add to this conversation except to say, I’m thinking about it…
Shaun Groves says:
Thanks for that. It would be easier not too.
Amy Dixon says:
I think many of us are so focused on LIVING that we neglect to be LOVING. (Did that make as much sense in words as it did in my head?)
Dana VK says:
We live in a fallen world full of sinful people with terrible plans for us. This is the truth. Also true is this: it is the responsibility of a nation’s leaders to keep her citizens safe. If that means going to war, then so be it. A government that won’t protect the people is worthless; similar to a father who won’t protect his family. I can put aside my personal desire for a violent end from those who have perpetrated violence on me or mine, but I cannot separate the need for national safety from the actions necessary to keep us safe. Sometimes that means showing your strength. I appreciate strength.
Shaun Groves says:
Thanks for joining in, Dana. There’s an excellent quick read that addresses your point better than I ever could. (I once felt the same way as you, in fact.) The book is What About Hitler?: Wrestling with Jesus’ Call To Nonviolence In An Evil World – written in a very conversational clear style. Well worth reading. I’ll even buy you a copy and put it in the mail if it’s not something that fits your budget right now. It was that helpful to me.
jennnahrstadt says:
this is a challenging subject–allowing vengeance to be God’s and figuring out what to do with my emotions.
i didn’t feel like i wanted revenge after 9/11; i was just profoundly sad.
btw, one tiny detail: i think you left a 0 off the number of people who died that day. wiki says it’s closer to 3000.
Shaun Groves says:
Thanks for catching that. Added that zero.
Thomas D. Dalke says:
First I must say that I do not advocate for violence, vengeance, or war, all of which only perpetuate the same. But I do believe that lawful authority when called upon is justified in using force (even lethal force) to apprehend evil or execute justice on the earth. Therefore I do not condemn those who do so in a just and lawful way. I once had a “conversation” with several individuals who felt otherwise, who even associated a policeman’s using his firearm to either defend himself or anyone else with that of breaking Jesus’ commandment “to love ones enemy,” which I thought an absurd application of it. Do I like Martin Luther King? Before I came to know Jesus Christ in my mid twenties he was by far the greatest speaker I ever heard. His and those like him, who take a stand for just and equitable society, in a non-violent way, are few and far between. Now as a Canadian born and raised, whose grand parents grew up as very conservative Mennonites, yet who also saw some of the pitfalls of their “cultural faith” as their lives interacted with those around them, yet who remained Christians, or actual became believing Christians later in life. I have learned much from them about how holding to a cultural faith’s traditions (not Biblical faith traditions) can cause one to inadvertently act in less then loving ways towards those who are outside of those traditions. And so I do not ascribe to the Mennonites, nor anyone else as having the “perfect” theology when it comes to these complex matters, which I could not even begin to address, on even expound fully my views on here. Suffice it to say as a Canadian who loves his countries peacemaking legacy, there has been a noticeable shift over the past decade or so from that of being a country which prided itself on it’s peacemaking role in the world, to that of a more pro-military response. Again this largely being born out of the 9-11 tragedy which also awoke some very strong sediments here north of 49th parallel (that is the border between Canada and the USA, in western Canada), as well as elsewhere in Canada, and of course Great Britain which also supported the American “war on terror.” Which almost and sadly seems like the perfect paradox. That said, and likely to my own peril, I still do not think that armed conflict permanently resolves anything. In fact to my mind wars only make widows and orphans, that’s all they make in seeking to “liberate a people”, not peace and security, especially when they replace diplomacy (which actually tries to impartially address the injustices being perpetuated by both sides) as a quicker and more readily available and easier response.
And so as a 21century people who are finding ourselves only growing in our reliance on them, in trying to end tyranny and oppression. We need to instead turn to the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Gospel, which when believed and obeyed will transform individual’s lives, peoples, and nations. For the Gospel’s message is not about the sword, it’s about salvation, salvation from sin, Satan and death which is at the root of every other plight and evil being perpetuated in this broken world, and so these are the common enemy of us all. What is the answer to all of the questions you raised, the Gospel.
Kelli says:
This is a tough subject, Shaun. I admire you for tackling it. I guess my struggle is that I think it’s necessary that we defend ourselves when violence is perpetrated against us. There’s a fine line between vengeance and defense, of course, and it’s almost impossible not to cross it, especially after an event like 9-11. But how do we defend justice against groups like Al Quada without violence?
My second question is what are your thoughts on this given the developments in Ukraine and Israel’s invasion of Gaza yesterday? Do you see war or invasion as necessary for the defense of the Holy Land? Can Christ return without war and violence?
Kelli says:
I guess, to clarify and simplify my questions, do you think that there’s ever a time when violence becomes necessary for Justice, true justice, to occur. Acknowledging that there’s a real difference between true justice and vigilanty justice, and that mankind often muddles the two, do you think that sometimes justice may involve the employment of troops and weapons? Again, I’m thinking if this from the perspective of things happening in Israel and Ukraine right now. 🙂
Shaun Groves says:
I’ve got answers, Kelli. But I promise they’re insufficient. On vacation at the moment but when I return I’ll offer what little answers I have. As usual, I love your brain – that you wrestle with hard things and let me be part of that.
Kelli says:
I look forward to it. Enjoy vacation. 🙂
Ron says:
Two weeks ago my congregation was threatened with violence by a man who is mentally unstable. The police could not/would not help because he had broken no laws … yet. This man is related to a man who shot up a church and killed a minister several years ago. Both are schizophrenic. I held the writings that this man penned, complete with very thinly veiled threats directed to me, in my hands. And I am the shepherd. A shepherd protects his sheep. Anybody care to tell me what the proper response is in this situation? Most in the church have no clue what has transpired. But I do. And my security team does. We are responsible to and for those people who attend, oblivious to the situation. And we are even more responsible to God for our response. It has been a long two weeks.
Jonathan Blundell says:
Ron I don’t see that anyone has responded to your heavy question. I’m sure your heart has been burdened for sure.
Was there a resolve to the threat or has it continued? I think from my vantage point of being completely removed, my suggestion would simply be get on your knees and pray. I know that often sounds trite and I say that as someone who fails to do that so regularly in times of trouble but sometimes that’s really all I know how to do – is just to cry out in honesty and lay it all down. Prayers for a peaceful resolution if one has not already come.
Jonathan Blundell says:
Shaun thanks again for another great post. I’m sorry I missed this previously. Catching up on a few older ones tonight as I do some reading and thinking. If you haven’t read it yet, I think you’ll appreciate Brian Zahnd’s Farewell to Mars. I’m in the middle of it and it’s hitting home on so many levels with this topic.
I also found a highly moving response to the question about defending your family. Bruxy Cavey relates the story:
“What if a bad person broke into your house and threatened to kill your family – then in a moment of confusion left his gun right in front of you. Would you take the gun and shoot him?” There were various responses to this question. Finally one older gentleman replied, “no, I would not pick up the gun. I would fall to my knees and pray – because I believe that I would be tapping into a greater power on my knees than with the gun.”
Oh that I could have that kind of faith.
Jesus says “Do not be afraid” and yet I walk around with fear of my neighbors, my enemy and the unknown. Perhaps those who have this peace making figured out, have learned how to truly not fear.