Shaun Groves
One side…
Collecting an offering on Sunday morning will turn some people off to Christianity so we shouldn’t do it. Aren’t they more important? They’ll think the church is just after their money. They’ll be embarrassed if they don’t drop anything into the basket. They’ll be needlessly uncomfortable. Putting a box in the back for people to quietly drop their gifts into is better, but still. If we collect an offering on Sunday morning we risk sending some people to hell over something that really isn’t that important.
The other side…
Collecting an offering of some kind in some way on Sunday morning is an essential part of worshipping God together. Since the widow gave her mite and Barnabus laid his gifts at Peter’s feet in Acts, and even before, God’s people have worshipped together by giving. We shouldn’t get rid of the offering just to make non-Christians feel better about Christianity. Being a Christian is uncomfortable and embarrassing sometimes.
Interesting lunch discussion today at Ouachita Baptist University huh? Wish you were there.
What do you think about your church’s offering? Leave a comment and let us know.
MainlineMom says:
I believe it is an essential part of corporate worship, and I believe it is a pastor’s job to occasionally remind people of why we are called to give…tithe even. Actually, nothing annoyed me more than my church complaining for years about needing more space to grow but never holding a capital campaign…never asking ME to give above and beyond. I would have…a lot.
Los says:
I don’t go to a church right now so my bank account is getting HUGE!!!
😉
I think don’t make a big deal of it but also dont hide it
Happy geek says:
To me, giving is part of worship. Sometimes I give in church, sometimes online. It’s how I thank and obey a generous God. However, EVERY week my pastor husband would explain the offering and why we did it and make sure visitors felt under no obligation to give, we were just happy they were there.
Lindsay says:
I can see both sides. However, I tend to fall on the “Giving is ESSENTIAL to Following Christ” side of the argument, so I don’t see why we should hide it from people who are considering becoming followers.
JessicaBowman says:
I think if we could get people to understand that our whole life belongs to God and our whole life should be an offering to Him…all of the rest of this would fall into place.
Did you see this interesting article today?
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2010/10/10/melchizedek-priests-and-a-more-perfect-tithe/comment-page-1/#comment-55548
Scott says:
I think non-christians understand that christian churches take weekly offerings.
I think what turns non-christians off isn’t the collecting of offerings but the knowledge that the majority of that offering is going to pay for salaries, christian vacations (aka missions trip), the brightest projector money can buy and mortgages instead of caring for widows, orphans, the sick and the oppressed.
misty says:
I believe that giving is a part of worship and that we should give.
I am a christian and I am turned off by what Scott says that non-christians are turned off by.
JessicaBowman says:
Misty – Thank you.
I’ve been eye-ballin this can of worms, but have been unwilling to be the one to open them. 🙂
Agreed.
Princess Leia says:
I think this goes back to a misunderstanding of the purpose of the church – is the local church for non-believers (i.e., “seekers”), or is it for believers (i.e., the church = the local “body of believers”)? If the church is for seekers, then you should avoid doing anything that is not “seeker-sensitive” (I think I vomited a little in my mouth just typing that). If the church is for believers (clearly _my_ opinion), then a monetary offering is an essential part of our worship.
I think we need to be FAR less concerned about what people will think or do (imo, this represents a severe lack of understanding of the Holy Spirit’s role in the Salvation experience), and far MORE concerned about being obedient to God’s commands to believers, i.e., “bringing our tithes into the storehouse.” (and yes, I recognize that’s an OT reference and therefore not actually directed at “believers,” per se….)
Now…a side issue of course is what is meant by “storehouse” – is that the local church and only the local church? Or does my Compassion sponsorship, etc. “count” as part of my tithe?
Heather EV says:
I agree with what you have said! I like how you put it.
As for your side question, I have always personally considered giving to Compassion or World Vision a part of tithing, but I also know that the local church needs money to function along with those organizations. So I think that we might be doing our churches a disservice by ONLY giving to big organizations.
Princess Leia says:
As a minister’s kid myself, I will never be one to completely forgo giving to my local church in lieu of giving to other organizations, but it’s definitely food for thought! Granted, I think the basis of that (just like the tithing of our gross or of our net income question) is really a heart issue of “how much do I HAVE to give back to God, so that I can do the absolute minimum required?”
But being an engineer, I like knowing that I’m at least _meeting_ requirements, so I want to clearly define what those requirements are.
Right now my family tithes my husband’s (net) income to our local church (this is the vast majority of our “live on” money), and my (gross-ish) income (my income varies to some extent check-by-check) to friends who are faith-based missionaries and to Compassion (so it’s a set amount given, taken out of an amount that is not set).
I think that’s a healthy compromise for where our family is right now.
BDub says:
To me, buckets placed in the back or around the room gives meaning to the idea of giving as an act of worship, causing me to physically walk to a certain place and give on my own terms (i.e. not having a plate or a basket passed in front of me).
Passing an offering plate makes me uncomfortable even as a Christian and it does not feel worshipful to me. It’s awkward, especially because it’s usually joined with an awkward “offertory” performance to fill the time.
JessicaBowman says:
Amen BDub, Amen!
I totally agree, the traditional way “offering” happens in America is forced and unnatural. They should just have a box with a slit in it by the door! 🙂
Emily M. says:
Our church had weekly communion, so we just had an offering box where you would put your offering as you came up. That way it was totally no pressure. No judgment if you didn’t give. No glorification if you did.
Jenna B. says:
I like this. This way the giving is still part of corporate worship, but you don’t have to be ‘reminded’ by the plate being passed in front of you. Our church has a Saturday night service and the box is in the back. The other services they pass the plate. I try to only give on Saturday nights, just to make my point! 🙂
Heather EV says:
I have never thought that the church was out to get my money, even when it has been told to me. Since I first started going to church, I have known people accept offerings and that those help the church run. People who think that churches are out to get their money will think that regardless of if the plate gets passed or not. At least, that’s my opinion from what I have seen from grouchy non-Christians who are cynical about the church.
Kelly says:
I’m passionate about this topic because so many people complain when churches discuss money or take offerings or talk about giving. I find the people who get the most angry or uncomfortable (and I was that person for a long time) are the people who feel the most convicted.
I think taking an offering IS part of worship. One of the topics (if not THE) most discussed in the Bible is money. Maybe it’s because after so many years of not giving – I discovered that giving a tithe – or even hopefully more than a tithe can be the biggest blessing you may ever experience. I’ve seen first hand in my life how God has blessed and shown me Malachi 3:10 in my life.
Or maybe it’s because I’m on the finance committee at church and I know how important it is to have tithing so we can support ministries, missionaries and do outreach. I know how frustrating it is to know that only 20% of the church gives 80% of the money and if every member tithed – the things we could do and accomplice for God’s kingdom would be unbelievable.
I think when you start backing down from things God commanded to make people more “comfortable” – you start to lose your witness and the evidence that you apart of something that is different than the “world” and should be. Jesus didn’t try to make people comfortable. That’s not what Christianity is about. It SHOULD be a lot more uncomfortable than it is.
Sorry for the sermon.
Tracey says:
Our church has offering boxes at the back.
Giving is only uncomfortable for those that don’t give and I don’t think a passed plate or a box in the back will make a difference to them.
Never mind, I just remembered my husband got saved at our church and the one thing that kept him coming back was that they weren’t “always asking for money” like other churches. He is now one of the most generous givers I know.
Ben says:
Wow I never realized this was an issue. At our church, because our Pastors really explain offering and stewardship and what it is and Who it’s for, whenever they say “we’re gonna take the offering now” everyone gives a giant round of applause and cheer. It’s a real highlight here-and it’s a privledge. They give the visitors/guest an option saying we don’t expect them to give today, but we believe…It’s really cool! I think it’s all in how we communicate things.
Ron says:
What do I think about my churches offering? I think I wish it were bigger. (sorry. i’m on vacation and that’s as theologically deep as I can go.)
rachel says:
at our church, they do pass offering baskets, but say something like, “if you are a guest, please act like one and let the plate pass you by.” i think that’s fine. at our last church they kept them at the back and those who were familiar with the church knew where they were. in a way, passing is kind of awkward. we direct deposit our offering so we always let it pass us by. sometimes i wonder if people judge us… or notice that we never put anything in, but then i try not to waste my time thinking of such things. anyway, the basket at our church is mostly filled with $1s and $5s so I think a lot of people direct deposit like us.
patrick says:
we see in acts 2 and 4, as well as others (the widow’s mite anyone?) that believers gave literally everything. i’m thinking a tithe…in any form…is the very least we can do. it’s up to you whether you trust your church leadership to do the right thing with it. either reconcile that with your church, or get somewhere where you do.
Bethany says:
I think it’s pretty biblical to include giving tithes/offerings when the church gathers. I also think there’s freedom for churches to do that in a variety of ways.
Something we’re experimenting with lately is trying to celebrate what’s happening during that part of the service – by telling stories about people who give or of how the offering money is used.
Tj says:
Our church has had a box in the back for years, but they never incorporated it into worship, which I think they should have. Now, one of the older elders, has begun passing the plate because they felt the offering was low. When he is not there though it doesn’t get passed. Kind of funny. It seems our church’s leaders don’t agree.
Ultimately I think an offering is part of worship and should be included, either box or passing of a plate. ( l like the box) I don’t think it should be a time of begging people to give.
Natalie says:
This is really interesting because we are having a message on Sunday talking about Rebooting Our Finances…and of course, the tithe will be preached.
I am on the church staff and married to one of the assoc. ministers. We have recently discovered that giving has SIGNIFICANTLY declined (even among our high level leaders) , but our numbers are growing well above 1200 ppl a weekend. We do not pass the plate, but have boxes in the back. Our pastor felt like the Lord told him to do it that way and we have always trusted the Lord as our provider. In light of the shocking news…even though we really don’t didn’t want to know names…just a % of leaders…we are going to have to tackle this tough subject.
I think you are getting at a different question though. Are you talking about actual tithing or the action of taking up an offering on Sunday mornings? We don’t do that…however, I great believe that the tithe is an essential part of our relationship with God. I think God used money to teach us matters of the heart and to trust him. It’s an act of obedience for me.
So what is it for people? Is it fear? Is it just not knowing? Is it difference of opinion? Is it lack of vision?
Sara says:
I agree, passing a plate can be akward, but I wonder if having a box in the back would make it easier to “forget” to place a tithe in. You know, with all of the socializing, picking up kids from nursery, and finding out where everyone is going to eat that happens before and after the service. Every church I’ve ever been to has passed a plate, I think.
As a member of a church that has gone through hard times financially lately, I know the results of people not tithing. Apathy, laziness, and sin can wreak havoc on a church’s budget. What I find amazing is that we forget that every good and perfect gift is from above. It’s all His, but yet we like to think we can control it and hold our fist too tightly when a need is presented to us. But then we go out to eat, buy unnecessary things that sit in our closets, and sign loans for cars and houses 10 times our size because society tells us this is “normal”. I’m so tired of normal! I’m ready for some financial authenticity in our society.
Sorry for the rant. Hope you’re doing well Shaun!
JessicaBowman says:
I saw this brilliant quote today:
“It is more important to change what people care about than to change what they believe. You can believe without caring, but you can’t care without believing.” – Erwin McManus
Which is why I say, if we could make people care that their whole lives; their decisions, and finances, and careers, and marriages, and hearts are an offering to God…we wouldn’t have to worry about them forgetting to use the offering box. They would MAKE a way to give. In all areas. Tenth schmenth.
The problem now is, they may factually believe in tithes and offerings.
But they just. don’t. care enough to make sacrifices.
Kit says:
I always like churches that take the offering BEFORE the sermon, so it seems more a part of worship and less like “Hey, did you like my sermon? You should put some money in the plate now to pay for the entertainment you just got.” 😉
And I like what ‘rachel’ said about it all.
amy in peru says:
it is SO good to give.
and I totally agree with JessicaBowman…
It is an important part of worship. I think we can remind people without sounding like some well-known tv personalities, that while it might not be possible to give GOD everything we own (impractical, nor does he ask for this)… we CAN be useful with our money making eternal investments! But hopefully, our whole lives speak to usefulness and we are involved in furthering God’s work, not just financially (which is relatively easy) but willing to get our hands dirty as well. 🙂
amy in peru
Krista says:
Every January our old pastor would preach a series of sermons on the Biblical perspective on money. I think it was a good reminder to start off your year in the black with God.
Our new pastor always makes it a point to say before the offering that “if you are a guest, please know that this is for regular members”. I think this way guests shouldn’t need to feel obligated or uncomfortable, but that regular attenders have the chance to give to support the church.
RE: what Kelly says about 20% giving 80% of the money… while I do agree that we should tithe and give even more than that (since it’s all God’s money to begin with) I don’t think seeing those numbers necessarily means that people aren’t tithing. We use half our tithe money every month to support 3 missionary families who are personal friends of ours. The other half sometimes goes to other mission projects we support and then sometimes to church.
Our church also takes special offerings for things like building homes for widows in Burundi and providing water filters to Haiti, etc. We are much more likely to give a donation to a special offering actually even though we know that part of our general tithe goes to support those same projects.
Final thought: Someone said just recently that instead of thinking about it as giving God 10% of our money we should think about it as we’re keeping 90% of God’s money… kind of changes your perspective and how you spend your money!
katie says:
My question isn’t so much about money, but about all the other places in the church where this is a question.
We go to a small church with limited resources. There is one women’s ministry bible study and one men’s…there is one Sunday School class for adults. A very few families are providing bible studies, sunday school for all ages, morning snacks, discipleship, ce group leadership (which seems to always include supper for a lot of people), etc…for several other families. Right now we’re really stretched very thin and everyone is a little exhausted…and so we’re starting to ask questions. If you can just do one bible study with women, do you do a book of the Bible which would feed and equip the women? Or do you do a seeker bible study with no reading or prep work to make visitors feel welcome even though we don’t have an awful lot of visitors? Do you have the same 4 people spend $30 on their Sunday morning to feed everyone, knowing that there might be a visitor, but mostly we’re feeding our sweet church children who also eat breakfast at home and a snack in children’s church? Do we continue to gather as CE groups even though most of the people of the church aren’t really interested and are either “fast-talked” into coming by the more forward elder or are a “no-show” 90% of the time when the other elders invite them to come? And at all those gatherings, where most people decline to even say if they are coming, do we provide a full meal just in case? all this even with a 40% drop off in giving? Should we be more seeker-friendly to draw people in (which part of me sees as a little deceptive…bait and switch…think you’re getting a blueberry strudel muffin and a friend and then have to listen about Jesus…) Or do we stop, rethink and start preaching and encouraging each other with the Word, loving each other and serving together biblically (and with a less $ spent to host) and then just letting the people who didn’t really want that anyway struggle with whether they want to come to church or not? My tendency is always to coddle…to invite again…to think that $100 dollars more from my family might be the difference…or one more night going to CE group at a “convenient time” way past my toddler’s bedtime when we are one of two families that show up with mountains of food…I keep thinking that is Christianity…but my heart is slowly (as i get burned out) wondering about the parts of the bible where Jesus says to the seeker ” foxes have holes and birds have nests, but the son of God has no place to lay his head” and the “no one builds a house until he makes sure he has enough money to complete it” part…and Paul is fearless..who was the guy he said he threw out of the church to teach him not to blaspheme? Is bold and honest more loving than making it super easy for everyone to stay and feel comfortable? We do have incredible preaching and are a mission church, so that might be part of it.
Ideas?
Alexia says:
Our church has recently experienced a drop in tithe and our pastor and elders just started cutting programs. We used to provide donuts and coffee during Sunday school and they stopped doing that because there was no money for it. They pray before all of their decisions and none are taken lightly, but my pastor has always said he is not afraid to cut a program if it’s dead. We’re finding, in our church, that sometimes things stop working out because you’re on the wrong track and it’s time to stop and re-evaluate how your personal life is going and what God wants to do in you and through you.
Princess Leia says:
Our solution to the “way past toddler bedtime” dilemma is to host the small group meeting in our own home. That way our kids can go to bed at their regular time if we’re running late.
We did finally cancel a small group several years ago though when we’d cooked and cleaned for the invading hordes and week after week, no one showed.
Alexia says:
I have zero problems with my pastor asking for tithe and passing the plates. He always makes it clear to visitors that they are not expected to give and most Sundays explains a little about tithing/why we give/where it goes. If you’re a christian this is a necessary part of life. I don’t like seeker-friendly services because I don’t think you can allow God to move like He wants to in those services. (hello, there is alot of God stuff that could FREAK them out!)
People aren’t supposed to be coming to us, we are supposed to be going to them. If we go to them, in their places of need, then they will come to us once Jesus has touched their lives. Yes, some non-Christians will come to church, but out church doesn’t worry about selecting only those things that will make them comfortable. We focus on worshiping God together and if something “weird” or uncomfortable happens – my pastor will explain it.
I think there are alot of different ways that all this can be done though. The most important thing is that you are praying about what God wants you to do in the place you are at and then doing it. We can’t all do the same thing because all people are not the same.
Thomas says:
I look at my tithing as a act of worship.
The church I attend announces before the collection that is only for the members of the church and if you are a guest you are supposed to pass the bag by. That there is a gift for the guest at the welcome desk. I have no problem with this announcement.
However, this announcement was once overshadowed by a comment made during the announcements. One of our elders during Saturday service stated how we had our yearly independent audit of the church’s books and the auditor told us that we are one of the worst tithers they have ever seen. I almost walked out of the service at that time.
JessicaBowman says:
Don’t you love how Shaun just lights the wild fire and watches it burn?
🙂
misty says:
Pass the plate or a box in the back…neither bother me. One doesn’t seem more important than the other.
Right now my husband and I are giving all our ‘tithe’ money to support missionaries and mission projects here at home and in other countries. The reason for this is we aren’t presently involved in a ‘church’. We do small group and consider this church as we are meeting with other believers worshipping, praying, studying Gods word and we also do jail ministry.
Our issue is that we are not having any luck finding local churches that are actually helping out in the community (near and far) as a rule. But, we find it hard to give our tithe to a church that is paying for a ton of staff, taking staff retreats, giving bonuses based on how many members that join each year, how many baptisms there are and a number of other goals being met when there are homeless starving and freezing. When we aren’t even able to get help to purchase Bible’s for inmates. When we see needs daily that aren’t being met that could be met by the local churches. When a house that is opened up for women coming out of jail that is actually teaching the women about God, life skills, helping them find jobs and housing is having to close because not ONE church will help back them. They have lots of individuals helping but we can only do so much. If some of the large local churches would help just a little it would make a huge difference.
So, what do I think about my church offering? Well, I just don’t really know. 🙂
Sorry….stepping off my soapbox now. 🙂
Marina says:
In our congregation we have a weaved basket for the offerings that we pass around. It is designed in such a way that the top part looks like a lid with a big enough round hole to put your hand in with your donation. This way you don’t have to show how much you give (whether it’s too little, in your opinion, and you feel ashamed, or whether it’s a lot, and you’re afraid to make you neigbor feel uncomfortable for not being able to give as much). It’s worked for years and seems to still work fine.
As for where the money go… I give it to God! Besides, I give only a tiny part of what He’s given me in the first place – and it’s everything!
Oh, and there was a remark about mission work being a vacation?.. If you really come with a mission – knowing why you’re here and what you’re doing – you’ll be more exhausted then attending all the Bible studies in your hometown church and participating in all of its events!
Erin says:
I believe that God puts a NEED to give in His children. I don’t always give as cheerfully as I should, but I need to give. God doesn’t need my money, but I need to give it. And I think an offering plate should be passed every week.
Kelli says:
My husband and I were just discussing this on the way to church this morning. We can NEVER find our check book…particularly on Sunday mornings. Therefore we have a very difficult time keeping up with our tithing, not because we don’t WANT to tithe but because we are organizationally challenged. For a long time we have considered simply setting up a bank draft to be sent to our church monthly as our tithe, but we’ve hesitated to do that because I think there is something very important about tithing with the body of believers.
Tithing to the church is extremely important in my opinion. I come from a family of missionaries and preachers and it’s always frustrated me when people make the assumption that pastor’s shouldn’t make much money. Why shouldn’t we joyfully give to the man and family that is pouring time and energy into sheparding our church body? Why shouldn’t we joyfully give to the men and women who are pouring their time and energy into our youth and children? Why shouldn’t we joyfully give to the facility that makes this discipleship possible? The notion that it’s uncomfortable to give to the church is foolish in my opinion. In fact, I’m of the opinion (and this is just my personal opinion, I’m not trying to preach here) that giving to missionaries outside the church should be above and beyond our tithe to the church. Again, just an opinion that my husband and I share.
So the decision we made this morning after once again frantically searching for the check book to no avail is that it’s time to set up that bank draft. We can and will still joyfully give a tithe to our church and will be able to do so much more effectively this way. We will worship and praise God on Sunday mornings as the basket is passed without guilt because it’s such a non-essential. And yet it is so essential. We won’t feel judged by others because we are doing what we know God has placed on our hearts to do. I guess my opinion on this is that it doesn’t necessarily matter if the basket is passed or simply left at the back of the sanctuary. But I do think that the people of the church should be encouraged to give and give joyfully. Even I need to be reminded of that from time to time.
I will now tuck my soap box back under the couch…
Douglas says:
Since becoming Catholic, I’ve moved half a dozen times in 3 different states. Every parish I’ve attended has given it’s members an annual statement that shows down to the penny how much money goes to pay for salaries, health care benefits, utilities, youth programs, etc. It makes it really easy to see that nobody on staff is getting rich when they average is far less than the median US salary. Also, finance council meetings are open to all parish members, so one can go and see how the decisions are made. I like that kind of transparency.
The pastors in my last few parishes have talked way too little about money, IMO. A talk about money happens maybe once a year for a special collection and the sermon/talk is usually given by a lay member of the congregation on a rotating basis, not the actual pastor. Maybe they all figure that they’d rather tick people off preaching about abortion, marriage and divorce or some other moral issue our culture struggles with instead of money. I don’t know. It just strikes me that they don’t follow Jesus example really well. If people aren’t willing to bring their finances under Christ’s Lordship, they will probably have a tough time in other areas, too. Growing up I visited a friend’s church where they had a 10 minute “please give” sermon every single week, so I suppose it is possible to overboard on the other end, too.
I’m not sure that much can be done to help non-Christians if they are really bugged by money. So much of the opposition to Christian churches’ use of money is an illogical extrapolation form what they’ve seen on TV with churches like the Crystal Cathedral. My agnostic dad would comment about how some 40 year old church with 10 year old carpet was obviously really expensive to build, but then be amazed in a good way at how nice a corporate or university building/campus looked. Corporations and universities typically have vastly superior facilities than churches I’ve attended, so it never made a whit of sense to me.