Shaun Groves
Maybe it’s because I was in California all weekend. Maybe it was the sun of the OC that’s baked my brains or the entire state’s lean to the left. Or maybe this stuff actually matters and is the kind of thing I should think about more often. I don’t know.
I’m thinking about immigration.
Which of these statements are true and which are false?
1) Followers of Jesus have a duty to the poor of spirit and bank account, the hungry and the hopeless and to their children no matter where they’re from. Our love should know no borders. Every person, regardless of language or citizenship should be actively loved, provided for by us – the Church. Every immigrant into this country, legal or illegal, is a person in need is an opportunity to do God’s will here and now as it’s done in heaven.
2) Followers of Jesus obey the laws of their nation as long as those laws do not contradict God’s laws. We should care the poor of spirit and body, the hungry and the hopeless and their children regardless of whether they or we are breaking the law in the process. We should encourage illegal immigrants to become legal, we should encourage those who have not yet immigrated to do so legally in the future, but regardless of one’s standing with the government of the United States they are to be loved wholly by every citizen of heaven. Love comes before legality.
3) As citizens of heaven, followers of Jesus have a responsibility to use their citizenship in America (insert England, Canada, Australia etc) to influence the principalities and powers on earth to open the borders of “Christian nations” so that those in need “out there” can get “in here” and have their spiritual and physical needs met. Christians should do this no matter the consequences on their livelihood, their nation’s culture, their security etc.
4) As followers of Jesus we’re to be good stewards of all we’ve been given, including our nation. To protect our nation is to protect a gift from God. Allowing illegal immigrants to go unpunished and to award them amnesty is to put the gift at risk, it’s squandering the resources we’ve been given. We won’t be a light to the rest of the world if our country’s unemployment and crime rates increase. We’ll no longer stand apart as a great and prosperous nation, and we risk becoming a non-Christian nation as well, with many immigrants importing their religion with them.
5) Immigration is an issue that Jesus never spoke about so we shouldn’t either. God puts leaders in power and we’re to obey them without questioning them. We’re subjects of the government. They more than us too so followers of Jesus should just follow their leading and focus on more important things Jesus addresses directly in scripture.
Mark says:
I’m so glad you put option 5 up there. I was beginning to feel convicted until I read the right answer.
*Going away to think this over now.*
Really enjoyed the concert Saturday night. And my friends have told me the same thing multiple times.
Todd says:
#1 and #2?
jwise says:
T, T, ?, F, F
I can’t decide on #3 just because I tend to believe I have very little influence in the political arena where laws are being made and changed.
The borders are the world’s… There’s the Kingdom and the not-Kingdom. We need to stop trying to make Americans and start trying to make Kingdom dwellers.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer would say that our ONLY interaction is with Christ—not the world, not the immigrants, not the government. If that’s so, then we need to ask Christ to go to these people on our behalf.
I don’t know what I’m saying
lorijo says:
I think 5 is false. Jesus did speak about it. He told us to love our neighbors.
4 rubs me the wrong way.
3 provokes a need for more thought.
i liked 1 and 2 and thought they were more true than false.
thanks for bringing this up.
ps. hi, i’m a new reader. i like the thoughts around here. =) i go to sandals. the end.
rhodes says:
4 and 5 are false.
I agree with the rest.
America has historically been a destination country for anyone wanting a second chance (or a first chance) at having the freedom to pursue their dreams. But at multiple times in our history the “in” people have wanted to shut down that openness after they made it in.
That’s how most clubs work. You’ll do whatever it takes to get in, but once your in, it is your “right” to look down the other peons on the outside and do what you can to close the doors on them.
That being said, the process that allows them in and grants them “legal” status should be clearly defined and not easy in the sense that it should be something you have to work hard to attain so that, once attained, it is rightly valued.
I’m not sure there is a “christian” response one way or the other on what those “rules and guidelines” are. But there is a definite and undeniable response to the people inside that process. Or outside it for that matter.
in a nutshell. You’re welcome to have any opinion you want on how we allow people in and make them legal. But you don’t have a choice about how you treat them if you’re looking for a Christ-like response
Cali Amy says:
I agree with one and two, I think. Almost all of the people that I work with (my students) are immigrants. They are all legal, but certainly know bunches more who are illegal. I think we definitely have a responsibility to love those who are here and to help them with their lives and to try to keep their families together, but not at the expense of the law. Meaning, we really need to discourage illegal immigration and use our influence (our vote, etc.) to encourage the government to make stronger laws that still allow immigration to take place. We need to do this because working really long hours for barely any money is not in the best interests of the families coming here. And we need to do this because poor laws and allowing people to slip through the cracks encourage atrocious crimes like human trafficking. We need to be willing to look at both the individual and the big picture and try to determine what is the most loving thing to do.
I know my response includes government action which won’t be popular on here, but I don’t see a better long term solution.
Mark says:
I was just coming in to post something like what CaliAmy said.
There needs to be two different responses to immigration.
The individual response needs to be one like Jesus would have as outlined in one and two.
However, the government needs to have a different response. If you read Romans and I Peter (I think it talks about it in I Peter), the government is clearly charged with maintaining order and protecting its citizens. And just opening our borders to anyone who wants to come in without knowing who or what they are certainly isn’t protecting us.
And I’m sure others here will agree that we aren’t only called to help those who are in our country. Our compassion should be reaching those around the world.
Thanks for making me think about this and reassess my own personal response.
Christine says:
“and we risk becoming a non-Christian nation as well, with many immigrants importing their religion with them…”
I seriously doubt that immigration is the cause for non-Christianity in this country. It’s America’s own citizens who are turning away from God and turning this nation upside-down and sinful. Although we have the freedom to worship whoever and whatever we want, God is looked down upon in the nation. People are killed for God (Columbine shootout), people are criticized when they stand for Godly principles (illegalizing abortion, outlawing gay marriage, etc.), people are looked down upon for being believers and even believers themselves blaspheme the Word of God (Jimmy Swaggart and the countless other preachers that act the opposite of what they preach). So I don’t know if you have to worry about immigrants making this nation “non-christian” – I think America’s citizens have done a good enough job of that on their own. Besides, immigrants have been coming into this country for hundreds of years, it was actually founded by immigrants (British immigrants), and it’s always remained a place of “free worship,” though it is predominantly Christian.
My 2 cents
Grovesfan says:
1.2, and 3 are true and 4 and 5 are false; mostly. While it’s true that one of the jobs of government is to protect us, what is it that they are protecting us from? Certainly not ourselves and we’re our own worst enemy most of the time. If our country were “taken over” and we suddenly became imprisoned, etc. would Christians lose the kingdom? No. Not that we shouldn’t be responsible, etc., but not to the exclusion of God’s commands to us to care for the poor, hungry, etc.
Beth
Thomas says:
#1 #2 #3
Thomas
Thomas says:
I should have said that #1 #2 #3 are true.
Sorry.
Thomas
Jenny says:
I agree most strongly with #2, for what it’s worth.
DrewbieTech says:
1 and 2 as best as I can tell are the only statements up there that are biblically defensible.
Lucas Parry says:
My thoughts. http://lucasparry.com/blog/?p=65
Melinda says:
The only Truth we have is the Word of God. So looking at these statements in the Word of God (I only looked at the first sentance of each statement) This is my view 1. True 2. True 3. False (I have not interpreted scripture to make this statement true.) 4. True and 5. False.
My personal beliefs are that my Grandfather was from Mexico and he came to this country legally. Married here and raised his 13 children here. He worked as a migrant worker for many years. He also translated for courts, and ran a bar. My brother died in 1992 he was only 20. We had a couple of migrant teens living with us at that time. One of them stole my dead brother’s identy (social and birth certificate)and sold it to an illegal so that person could work and live here. It broke my heart to find this out. There are people from every country waiting to become a citizen of the United States.
I live in Brooklyn Park MN. In our city we have almost 2,000 Liberians who came to live here because of their country being in war. They came over 10 years ago. And have been living in the United States legally. They have built homes, raised children, paid taxes and been involved in thier communites. On Oct. 1st these and all other Liberians who are not legal citizens (est. 200,000 nationally)will be deemed illegal and forced to leave the United States. What about these people? Will these people still need to leave if Mexican Illegals are given legal status? In this is just one group. I could tell you about other groups of Refugees that were told to leave.
Cali Amy says:
Melinda…
I am really interested in hearing more about this. I had no idea. Why do they have to leave if they are legal?
Shaun Groves says:
To be clear, I have no hard stance on any of this. I have a bunch of jumbled up answers I can’t yet make sense of. Thanks for helping me get a little more clarity.
Here’s the thought that began me thinking all this.
I was at a show recently and saw a man in a t-shirt that combined patriotism and Christianity in an unusual way. The shirt asserted that America was “God’s country.”
Now, most of us don’t ascribe special standing before God to this nation or any other, but there is a lot of talk about America being “godly” or “Christian” or “under God.” A lot of folks in America, wouldn’t you agree, think of America as a place reverberating with Christian values or at least values that are friendly to Christianity. I’d agree with that. I think ideas like charity, compassion, generosity are valued by most Americans I’ve known.
Its also true that we’re a wealthy nation – the third wealthiest, actually. We eat more than we must. Buy more than we must. Drive more than we must. We’re loaded.
Lets take these two traits of our nation to an extreme. Let’s pretend, for the sake of discussion, that America is 100% Christian. Every citizen is a Jesus follower. They believe Jesus is who He said is was to the point that they have rearranged all their priorities and values around imitating Him in every way. Then, let’s pretend we’re the wealthiest nation in the world. (Not sure that would be the case if we were 100% Christian, but go with me here). We’re Christian and we’re rich.
Now, pretending all this is true of a fictitious America, would immigration be illegal? Why? Pretending all this is true, explain tot he immigrant from El Salvador why we only allow so many immigrants in every year, why he can’t live here and have a better life than he has back home, and learn about our faith? Explain why the wealthiest godliest nation in the world won’t share.
I’m not saying there isn’t an answer. I just don’t have it. Do you?
Brody Harper says:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/06/a_pious_nation.html
Melinda says:
Cali Amy- Most of the Liberians were here on a refugee status, they were fleeing from their worn torn country. Liberia is now considered stable so they will now be returned to their country.
Senor Groves- This is a fictional scenrio…so could we also say in this fictional scenrio that Satanic Forces are not trying to destory our “Eden” of sorts, making it easier to trust the ungodly? If so then no, in this wonderful fictional world (which kinda sounds like heaven)No there would be no illegal aliens. I would hope that in this scenrio we would take our wealth and beliefs bring them to other nations and share ours with them. And because this is fiction, the other nations would then become Wealthy and Christian and nobody would want to leave their country for something better because they already have the best.
Just a question along the immigration discussion. Mexico is a democratic nation that is very corupt. There is a huge gap between the rich and the poor. The rich being 10% of the people and owning 40% of the nation’s income. Are we encouraging this country to deal with their poverty by allowing their national’s to become American’s? And then we are a country of “fairness” what we do for one group of people we have to do for all. So then will that set a course for other countries to just pack up their poor and send them to the United States?
Melinda says:
ok, I just read my comment and I need to say sorry for all the spelling and grammer errors. Sorry!