Shaun Groves
Yesterday morning Becky and I sat in a Sunday School classroom with twenty or so other adult couples. After a little small talk – Are you off the road for a while, Shaun? Yea, until next weekend. – the “class coordinator” asked us to “share.” “Does anyone have anything to share?” he asked. “A prayer request? Praise? Something you’re thankful for?”
Silence.
Then a guy stood up and taught us. “There are giants in the land,” he said, and then told us what our giants are – worrying about money, not liking our jobs – and then taught us and our wealthy upwardly mobile classmates how to face such daunting obstacles to our personal happiness. He asked a couple of questions he’d mapped out before hand and a few of us actually answered. But the questions never birthed conversation – there was no time for that. There was an outline to follow, points to hit, a ticking clock on the wall, and the education minister needed our room at precisely 10:30 and stood outside the door pointing at his watch around two minutes till as a not-so-subtle reminder.
A few hours later, after buying a couple kites at the local dollar store (Shrek and Spiderman), I sat on the curb of a cul-de-sac with three other dads. We untangled kites periodically, solved minor disputes between four year-olds and shot the breeze. We talked about work, family, sex, high school, video games, a new restaurant, our kids, sex some more…and God. He just sort of comes up when we – a bunch of Christian guy friends – get together.
So does church: Brick and mortar versus cul-de-sac.
I’m not an anti-“institutional church” guy. But I do learn more, laugh more, admit more, confront more, and spend more time in the cul-de-sac. Not sure what that means or what, if anything, to do about it. Just wondering if you experience the same thing.
Gaby says:
So I see 2 cul-de-sacs on there, which one is yours?
Man, I wish the neighbors in MY cul-de-sac would so much as talk back when I talk to them. Give me a “get lost, you creep”, something, come on. There’s only so much the polite hand-wave can carry in a conversation, really.
Todd says:
I don’t know Shaun. You sound pretty anti-institutional to me.
I’m reaching a point where when I’m partaking in a brick and mortar experience that I long for the “upper room” (my equivalent of your cul-de-sac). It’s simple, real, loving, unstructured. (A quick Gen-Y aside: I find it fascinating that my generation equates authenticity with things not being structured. Weird, no? Ok, enough Gen-Y talk)
I fear that many of our organized gatherings are missing the point of why we gather. I don’t really know what the implications of that are, but recognition is half the battle, right?
Stephen @ Rebelling Against Indifference says:
Shaun, I would say that’s true for me too, for the most part. I just posted an excerpt over on my blog from Dr. Harold Best’s book Unceasing Worship that addresses one aspect of this. Here’s one paragraph:
If there were no such things as church buildings and regularly scheduled services, Christians would, out of necessity, seek each other out for the sheer pleasure of finding Christ in each other, hearing different stories about his work in them, enjoying the ordinary and the exceptional, and perhaps only then gathering around what we call a liturgy. In such a gathering there would be little need at some point to say, “Now let us worship,” because no one would be able to locate the dividing line between “now” and “always.”
Karen says:
This is the very reason we are searching for a church family right now. We cannot live in a congregation that is only about Sundays… we need relationships with people throughout the week. It’s that day-to-day living with others that makes the Sunday gatherings even more special.
Kat says:
I wonder if it’s not so much “institution” vs. “cul-de-sac” but rather the size and makeup of the two groups.
One group was a mixed gender class of 20 people. That’s two strikes right there. Men and women (in my opinion) don’t talk as freely or openly in mixed company – about any topic. And a class of 20 is big and somewhat intimidating for most folks.
On the other hand a group of three dads with no timetable completely lends itself to opening up and sharing more intimate thoughts and struggles.
Our church doesn’t have Sunday School. We have weekly small groups in peoples homes throughout the week. In my experience, the best times have been when the group was rather small (6-8) or when we split up the guys and girls and had our own discussions.
I have no conclusion to this comment….just the observations I’ve mentioned.
Shaun Groves says:
Good points, Kat.
Thing is, we do the same thing – to a slightly lesser extent – when it’s us guys and our wives sitting in lawn chairs in Brian’s front yard all Summer.
And yea, a class of 20 couples is pretty awkward. So, then why have it?
Aims says:
And my friends that’s the reason why I hate my Sunday School class at church. I tried to talk to my teacher and the guy who passes out materials in our class a few Sundays ago about it not meeting the College age kids needs Spiritually and got blown out of the sky for it. I was told (with one other college student younger than I not even in college sitting there agreeing with me) that the rest of the College kids wouldn’t know as much as I do just because I go to a Christian college where you have to have 30 hours of Bible and Theology classes. Talk about being called stupid in a subtle way. “Yes, you’re not smart enough to know about the Bible because you go to a secular college.” That is essentially what they’re saying to us as college students. Mean while, I’m shoved up on some frikin pedal stool for going to a Christian college and am told that I need to know EVERYTHING about the Bible already and not have questions. The publishing companies are retarded because they give the College students a lesson that Middle Schoolers would enjoy struggling with and learning about. I’m extremely passionate about this if you can’t tell.
Vicki Gerdom says:
We’ve moved a few times, so we’ve been in different sunday school classes in different churches of different denominations in different states. The only real difference is how safe you feel to be vulnerable to the other people in the class. It has a lot to do with how the teacher handles the class and how “real” the people in the class choose to be with each other. It helps when people fellowship with each other at other times of the week, but it’s not necessary. We’re fortunate to have found a sunday school class where folks come to learn, worship, share and love each other. We’ve been in many classes over the years with practically perfect christians who at least pretend to have it all together. It’s impossible to be vulnerable in that situation.
Andy Vandergriff says:
Shaun,
i hesitate to say this…but i’m going to a church here in Knoxville (actually a plant out of Antioch Community in Waco, if you remember that at all) that allows me to both have that cake and eat it too. it’s a cell church(or two-winged, depending on what people call it) and it calls for both cell groups (during the week) and a large group celebration gathering on Sunday. the groups are lead by two people(a guy and a girl, or in the case of a family life group, a husband and wife) and meet in the living room of someone’s house during the week. the groups are designed to be small(12-16 people at most) in order to facilitate discussion, community and intimacy. if a lifegroup(our terminology for cell) grows to about 16 people and stays there for a while, we split the lifegroup in two, thus allowing for room to grow the lifegroup again, and then split it again, all in an attempt to share the good news of Christ with those who have not heard of it, and to try to carry out the vision of the early church portrayed in Acts 2:42-47. Maybe that’s kind of what y’all are leaning towards(and even unintentionally carrying out) in Nashvegas.
Kat says:
Andy,
Is that Kelly and Jennifer Braswell’s church plant? I go to ACC in Waco…but I forget who is located where…
Grovesfan says:
Many churches have Sunday School because “that’s the way it’s always been done.” I think it works well when it works, and it’s horrible when it doesn’t. The class I’m in right now is lecture because it’s large. One problem is we don’t have enough small classrooms to be able to break down into small groups on Sunday mornings. We have many small groups that meet during the week too and they are much more benificial for everyone. I cannot attend now because of work schedules, but will as soon as tax season is over. I agree with men and women being separate. I’m much more willing to open up about certain things with other women. Except boxer shorts, Shaun. We can discuss those again if you want.
Beth
Cali Amy says:
I also attend a cell church. Finding this church was like finding my dream for church. We have the close intimate cell group and the monthly celebration with everyone (we haven’t reached the goal of weekly celebration yet) as well as monthly prayer meeting and often some sort of social event.
But I feel that even at our montly celebration we are able to talk quite closely and freely.
Andy Vandergriff says:
yeah…it is…wow, that’s cool. i was at mandate w/our church and we’re going to juarez next week.
freedom1st says:
Shaun,
I’ve hung out with Brian, so I could see where the conversation would be good and edifying. Personally, my family and I attend church that meets once a week, Sunday am. There is no Sunday school, and we have home groups. One of the groups meets in our home, and is actually comprised of some church members and some other friends. Our group is the same way. When we get together, in or out of group, things tend naturally toward growth. We are friends and we stretch each other. Unfortunately, one of the families is moving next week.
Kat says:
Andy,
Have fun in Juarez. Kelly and Jennifer where actually my team leaders the first time I went to Juarez a million years ago.
“It’s a small world after all…it’s a small world after all…”
Mike P says:
Shaun,
This is where myself and myriad others I know are living right now. Cul-de-sac church is a valid and potential model for our society. Might I also reccomend the following:
1. Wal-Mart Church
2. Cell-phone Church
…two of my favorite places to have church with friends and strangers alike.
May your places and times of worship continue to increase and never cease to increase.
Betsy says:
I’ve been giving this topic some thought lately as well. Here’s where I am right now: I think there can be room for both. I attend church on Sunday. I think it pleases God that we gather in corporate worship, seeking and praising Him. Not saying that this is the only way to go about it, or that it is mandated in the Bible, but I find it meaningful.
I also meet one evening a week with a small group (usually 4-6) where we have a starting point in Scripture and we talk openly about our own circumstances and how that aspect of God’s word relates to the way we live. The more I think about it, maybe this sounds a little like what Andy and Kat are describing. I’m deployed in Iraq right now, so this small group will go away when I return home. My husband and I have been talking about making a change when I return, but we’re afraid of hurting the feelings of people at our current church. So, obviously, I don’t have all the answers.
Vicki, I could not agree with you more about vulnerability being an essential ingredient. The “pretending to be perfect” syndrome hurts us horribly as Christians, as well as hurting our witness to anyone who may not know Jesus. This is one of the main reasons we feel disconnected at our current church.
Sorry for the long post.
Betsy
wstaple says:
Shaun,
I teach a group of 11th/12th grade guys there at TPC. And I stuggle with the same thing your teacher struggles with. I’m an agenda-based person, and when I study for the lesson I feel like I’ve got to hit every point. (Luckily, I’ve got Joel Smallbone helping me with the ad-lib parts. He’s incredible!) But something happened this past Sunday that was very cool.
A young man who graduated from high school in Franklin last year (and was a part of the youth group) came by our class and asked if he could share his story from the last 6 months. He told us about training with YWAM for 3 months in Hawaii on aids awareness/prevention. Then he spent almost 3 months in Uganda working with the people there. His message was pretty simple – I asked God what to do, and even though it was hard I did it with His help. When money was an issue, God provided. The guys were spellbound for 30 minutes, completely captivated by this kid who was basically their age.
The “old me” would have rushed this young man’s story along so that I could get to my lesson that I spent 90 minutes on the day before. But God worked through this 19-year-old kid last Sunday to impact a few of his peers in a way I never could have.
I think God’s teaching me that agendas, while sometimes necessary, aren’t always the best way to deal with life.