Shaun Groves
I’m at The People’s Church in Franklin, Tn this morning where the MinistryCom conference is taking place. It’s a conference for communications guys and gals from churches, event churches mostly, at least the couple dozen I’ve met so far. (Remember, “event church” is just a descriptor and not an insult. When I use it I’m referring to a church which spends the overwhelming majority of its time, energy, staff, skill and cash on an event like a SUnday morning service or concert or “crusade” in hopes that those on the outside will be drawn to the inside.)
I’m not part of this conference. I’m an innocent bystander.
My wife is out of town, with her sister, heading to Arkansas to visit family for a few days worth of vacation. I’ve got the kids. Two of them are in this building for a preschool thingy and my oldest is here once a week for a homeschool co-op deal. The co-op folks require a parent to remain in the building at all times. I’m it. So here I sit, in the “grand lobby” of the People’s Church, surrounded by smiling young guys and gals with good haircuts and trendy jeans – feels like the music business – sipping coffee, talking on their iPhones and perusing booths for on-line ticket services and facilities management, automated receptionists, on-line graphic design services, streaming video technology, video church start-up kits, and church marketing and branding companies.
My favorite banner says “We make those who do good look good.” Wow. That really does say it all doesn’t it?
UPDATE: I just overheard a conversation between a salesman and a “arts pastor” in which the “arts pastor” disclosed that his budget is over a million dollars a year and his church is building over one hundred million dollars of new facilities in the next ten years. A pond, a recreation center, a small chapel for “wedding revenue” since their main room isn’t all that traditional looking, a “modern worship facility,” an office complex…
Cali Amy says:
I don’t really know how this fits in, but one of the things I remember most from a class on church growth that I took was about how when the church starts spending money on itself, it will cease to grow in converts. the more outwardly focused the money is the more new life the church has.
Of course this was a class on church growth at a Christian college. some people would have a problem with that alone! Oh and I’m not a numbers person…this isn’t about numbers, it’s about fresh new growing life.
Grovesfan says:
Yikes!
Beth
Nancy Tyler says:
Wonder what their missions budget is.
Aims says:
Okay question what do they mean by “good”. Do they mean that so-and-so is out busting his butt to try and save someone’s life physically and spiritually and that’s “good” or do they mean “good” as in the ol’ you’re blessed by God because you have money so you’re “good” or do they mean “good” as in because they go to church every Sunday and Wednesday night, can quote John 3:16 and their “life verse”, tithe their 10%, own a King James Bible, and live “morally correct” does that make them “good”?
Tim says:
Hmmm….so somewhere around here I have a soapbox to jump on about what “worship” is, or isn’t. Last time I checked, it’s not something big and impressive that is done TO or FOR a bunch of people that are spectating so that they can clap and go “oooo” and “ahhh” at all the technology. I say bring back the tambourines and wind pipes and bring on the preacher!
Just Matt says:
I think this is why Brant doesn’t go to church : ) …It is becoming to commercialized. Church is now a show – not just a house of worship. Can’t we just love people for who they are and do it just as we are? One would think that if we look to good – then that would make others uncomfortable… Plus didn’t Jesus point out the following in Matthew 23:57 about the Pharisees and religious leaders:
5″Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
Sounds to me like they liked to “Look Good” too, and I believe He referred to them as snakes and a brood of vipers…
Shaun Groves says:
Nothing wrong with looking good and doing our jobs well IMHO.
thecachinnator says:
Gross.
angie says:
Ok that’s freaky and wrong and sad all at the same time!
Is your tongue bleeding from biting it yet?
brad andrews says:
why don’t you talk about this at ‘abandoned?’ would be provacative but needed…
Tim says:
No, there’s nothing wrong with looking good and doing our jobs well…but not at the expense of being a “church”. If looks were what Jesus cared about, He probably would have chosen 12 other people. I’m not saying that doing worship “well” is wrong, because in a sense it has to be done “well” in order for others to gather into it, and I believe worship can be done extravagantly as well and still be worshipful. That’s not the point. The point is that this church appears to be focusing primarily on what it does within its own walls, and that’s just not cricket!
erin says:
I too wonder what the budget is for other ares of that church with the “art pastor” (I’ve never even heard of such a thing!).
Steve says:
Well, did you do anything about it? I certainly would have been one to ask this ‘arts pastor’ about his job and mission and how Jesus stepped out on His mission without anything flashy besides His miracles. And His disciples went out with even less.
Perhaps a little nudging and you could get yourself invited to a few event churches and tell them about meeting people where they’re at and the wonders they can do for the poor and hopeless.
Shaun Groves says:
Steve, many of my gigs are at event churches. And I do believe part of my work there is to think out loud on the mission and purpose of the Christian and Church without actually posing it as that exactly.
Cali Amy says:
a church I used to go to had a celebrative arts pastor. (in response to Erin)
Charlie Park says:
iPhone. Pffft. It’s jesusPhone.
Seth Ward says:
But what about Solomon???? I bet if he would have lived today God would have told him to slap up at least 6 jumbo trons and a mini-ark for the kids.
Not sure about the iphone though. I’m pretty sure God hates the iphone.
Jesus phone works if you use the latin:
iesus phone.
Anne Jackson says:
are you stalking me?
that’s the conference i’m at that i mentioned at the airport….
i’m (here) there…(actually in my hotel now in brentwood)
no trendy jeans though. and i left my trendy glasses at home. seeing blurry is more fun.
if you happen to arrive tomorrow…well…try and search out the nontrendy girl.
Shaun Groves says:
Yea, what about Solomon? What say the expensive church bashers to that one?
Come on , this one’s easy. I’ll let someone else answer for a change.
Shawn Wood says:
Hey its what blogs are for, but you guys are making a whole lot of presumptions about churches that you have never been to and don’t know the real experiences of…As someone presenting at ministryCOM who is at a church who would consider ourselves to be very much missional I would just ask that you give grace and benefit of doubt.
Just because the methods are different does not mean they are wrong…IF, and I know its a big IF, the return on Ministry of 100 million dollars spent is that thousands of people come to know and experience Jesus and become fully-devoted followers of Christ who continue to reach more people, who cares – its just money. I think sometimes we begin to worship money with the value that we assign to it being spent “wrongly”…the end game is more people for Jesus…I agree that God hates the IPhone…
peace
Shawn Wood
experience Pastor
Seacoast Church
Aims says:
Okay it’s nice and all how we go off on tangents about money but really no one answered my question. What do they mean by “good” for cryin’ out loud?!
Chris Forbes says:
I just posted on the conference you are talking about on the MinistryCOM.org blog.
I think people should at least consider that more happened at MinistryCom today than a single overheard conversation. People talked about all kinds of things in the halls and in the workshops.
I know I personally overheard several people even talking about Starbucks.
john says:
on my list of best experiences ever is baptizing formerly lost people during weekend services at a flashy church. one time it was in hot tubs – i got wrinkly skin because we did it all weekend. another time we did them in a lake and i kept slipping in the mud. that wasn’t so flashy. but it was still great.
flashy churches work, too…actually, the better way to say it is, God works in flashy churches, too. even in the mud.
is the conference over? say hi to my friend, curt, if you see him there. that’ll blow his mind.
Shaun Groves says:
Shawn W, thanks for stopping by. I agree. A church spending that kind of cash isn’t a problem. Spending that kind of cash on buildings also may not be a problem. But spending that kind of cash on a wedding chapel as a “revenue builder” and other facilities seemingly – admittedly presumptuous – unrelated to the mission of the Church is, well, troubling. Though, sure, absolutely, this is presumptuous.
This is a place to make presumptions without being unkind or insulting, then talk about those presumptions, figure out why they’re being made, if they’re right or wrong, if they matter etc. Thanks for your contribution to that discussion.
You have no way of knowing this, Shawn, but I know event church well enough to make educated presumptions for two reasons: 1)I worked in one for a total of four non-consecutive years. Muhc of my job graphic design related at one point and all about the quality of the event on Sunday morning. I went to the conferences, drank the kool-aid and lobbied for more “Relevance” in the form of a better cooler event. I’ve been on the inside. 2)I currently play music and speak at about 100 churches every year. Many of those churches are event churches, spending most (not all) of their resources (all kinds) on Sunday morning activities – the event. Sometimes I’M the event. Rock, me, hard place. SO, mine are informed presumptions.
I work with event churches because I want their money. I represent Compassion International, a child advocacy organization, at every engagement. And my goal in an event church is to expose members to the Jesus I know who spoke more about poverty than heaven and hell in hopes that they’ll spend less on themselves (spend less of everything) and more on the world outside themselves, beginning with kids in the third world.
I try to communicate to event churchers for this Jesus who spoke more about going than attracting, more about discipleship than mere conversion and demanded we put the needs of those around us ahead of our own. His church was founded by slaves and launderers and it sold it’s possessions and gave to the needy until everyone had enough. It healed the sick, fed the hungry, sheltered the cold, visited the criminal, cared for the widow and this, God says, is true religion. If we do not do these things, I say, we aren’t Christians (1 John 3, 4).
I hope to point out, subtly, subversively, the apparent dissonance between being a Christ follower and, at the same time, being self-absorbed. I do this by telling my own story of moving from excess to less because I felt hypocritical being a minister and a singer guy who wasn’t living more like Jesus would have – I presume – if he were in America today. If Jesus knew 30,000 children died every day because of poverty related causes would He spend $100,000,000 on buildings? If he had a non-Christian neighbor would He invite them to an event or just, you know, be a Christian neighbor? I don’t know. I can only presume. And then live in light of that presumption.
btw, what’s an “Experience Pastor?”
Shaun Groves says:
Flashy isn’t the issue. Values, message, purpose – those are more the issue (This was tackled today at the conference by Brad Abare of ChurchMarketingSucks.com apparently.)
There’s no denying that the look or style of a church does not determine these things for a church (though they can reflect them.) There’s also no denying, however, that a church spending most of its resources on its weekly event (even if that event sucks, isn’t flashy, is traditional, is boring, is culturally out of step, etc) is used by God, imaging God, but also out of step with God’s original full intentions for the Church and the Christian. How is giving 35 billion dollars a year to “congregational expenses” while entrusting the poor, unhealthy and orphaned to government entitlement programs in line with the mission of the church?
This isn’t about modern or young versus old and traditional. I grew up in an event church that did not innovate, did not change, ever, for any reason, and was far from “flashy” but also invested most of itself in Sunday morning – while all around it there was work to be done and need to be met. I was such a need. My family needed groceries, a job for my dad, the lights turned on, someone to notice. But, while we had money to buy a pipe organ and staff to run a rec center with bowling alley and sauna we did not have the resources for people like me. Event churches come in all shapes, sizes and with all sorts of expensive (not just monetarily) addictions that keep them focussed on their own fix: steeples and jumbotrons, pews and pods – it’s all the same to me.
Clearer now what I’m talking about?
john says:
shawn, no doubt, the issue isn’t flashy, tradition, “the way it used to be” or any of that. the issue is loving God and loving others. there is such an interesting conversation going on throughout blog land about all things christian. an evaluation of all things. let’s strip it down and keep a laser beam focus to do what it takes to love God and love other people in all walks of life with special attention to the poor.
Shaun Groves says:
Absolutely, John. That’s the essential.
Dawn Nicole Baldwin says:
Hey Shaun,
Your conversation has seemed to really touch a tender spot with folks.
It sounds like your underlying concern is when churches become more focused on themselves and/or how they’re packaging things and are oblivious to those in need around them.
I’ve also been on the “inside”, [prev. on staff @ Willow Creek leading Visual Communications], as well as on the “outside” [consulting with churches all over the country on brand strategy.] I get what you’re saying.
I’d say the majority are doing the best they can and have a real passion for wanting to reach people far from God, through events or otherwise. Some do get a little lost themselves along the way in an attempt to be relevant.
I think [to reinforce Shawn W’s point] the key thing to measure IS how many lives are being changed as a result, regardless of the cost. [financial or otherwise]
I’d imagine you’d consider Granger Community Church in IN an event church & they recently baptized 450 people in one weekend. [There’s a newspaper article that talks about it here:
http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007709100341%5D
Seacoast is another church who’s reaching thousands and thousands of people and converting hundreds of lives at a time.
This conference was designed to help those entrusted with communicating the message so they can learn from others and be more effective, more authentic. My hope is that you’d continue to observe today and consider another perspective–catch the heart behind the actions of people here. It sounds like everyone wants the same thing.
Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.
Dawn Nicole Baldwin says:
[also, Shawn W. talks about Brand Schizophrenia this morning, which you may find intriguing. Highly recommend you check it out]
shaunfan says:
I don’t think I saw anyone actually answer the WWSD (What Would Solomon Do) question. It just so happens we are studying the book of Ecclesiastes at my “event church” and I’ve read the book everyday for the last week and here is Solomon’s conclusion looking back.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%202:11,%2012:13-14%20;&version=31;
This is the richest king in the history of Israel in the Bible looking back and calling riches in life “meaningless apart from fearing God and keeping His commandments” (paraphrase by me)
Since my “event church” is giving me this message, they “get it” and are helping me “get it” too. So, I am in support of Biblical Truth regardless of where I hear it as long as the communicator is also living it.
Kevin
Shaun Groves says:
Dawn, thanks for that. Ironically, what I have here is a communication problem. I do think you and I and most if not all of the folks at ministrycom are in agreement about the essentials – love upward and outward. Haggling over the specifics and peripherals is a worthy cause at times but we do, for the sake of unity, have to agree that these matters are not central, not worth harming each other over. I wouldn’t have written these words had I thought they would seriously upset anyone, if I thought the people I met at ministrycom weren’t good natured enough to laugh a little and say, “yep, that’s what we look like.”
I hope I was right.
I’m at home today with a sick kid and his sisters. I’m not attending the conference, and I wasn’t attending yesterday. I was just sitting in a hallway observing and writing – that’s my job as I understand it.
Willow Creek, as eventful as it is, is about the Good News (Mark 1) from what I’ve observed firsthand, and spends all its resources accordingly. It’s not an event church as I’m defining it. Event church isn’t the same as what pastors call attractional. Attractional church is defined by a philosophy – attract outsiders to the inside. Event church is more specific – spend most of what we have (all resources) on the event and stuff that attracts and little on anything else, on what’s next. 100,000,000 bucks on technology and buildings is (presumably) event church at its most hedonistic.
I don’t know anyone from Granger, and can’t presume what they’re about. At the same time I don’t think it’s biblical to justify our actions as a local church by pointing to baptism stats. Baptism is not conversion, is not following, and is not the Good News (Mark 1). The event church I worked for baptized a lot of folks but I knew as a pastor that we spent little on their spiritual development (all resources) after their “conversion.” We had three “teaching pastors” and five “worship” staff folks and no free counseling, sent people to government agencies when they needed financial or medical help, and membership meant nothing – no member was required to be, well, a participating part of the community. The goal was baptism – and that wasn’t Jesus’ goal. He preached a transference of allegiance, of the whole self. He preached a Good News for the poor, sight for the blind, freedom for the oppressed. Not one alter call in three years of public ministry. The conversion, as we talk about it in modern America, was not the endgame for Him.
I understand why some are confused about what I mean in this post. It’s a good lesson for bloggers. Visitors don’t know the history of your blog and your thoughts. They get a snapshot, like a guy sitting in a lobby at a conference, and draw conclusions based upon their limited view.
I’ve discussed event church many times here. Had you read all of what I’ve written, experienced the totality of this blog, there’d be no confusion. But, like me at the conference, you see what’s immediately around you and that – admittedly – can be confusing.
Shaun Groves says:
Kevin, I wouldn’t say you go to an event church if they in fact “get” this. And, having been there and knowing your pastor guy, my guess would be that they do want to attract folks to church but that’s not, seemingly, most of what they try to accomplish together in a week. Not an event church then right? The bulk of what they have is not spent on the event. And success isn’t defined by how many people came to and enjoyed the event.
Am I correct, Kevin?
shaunfan says:
Shaun, thanks for your direct questions and observations. Yes, we are part of the Willow Creek Association and think highly of being an “attractional” church, which is my mini-classification of us being and “event church”. However, we also try to stay grounded in our message and spend a minimum of 25% of all giving in missions and many of us are trying to live the gospel outwardly to not be hypocritical.
Since I’m not on staff, just an active member, I can call a spade a spade and let you know that my church has lost friends of mine due to a misunderstanding of priorities which is why I wrote all of my teaching pastors (including the one you know) a thank you note this week for taking on such a difficult topic as Ecclesiastes in a humble, genuine fashion.
So, you are right that ironically by “getting it”, and having been blessed by space to grow and doubling in size the past 10 years can be misconstrued by some as “event church” which was the basis for my defending growth as long as it is coupled with Biblical Truth. Your observations about my church in particular are correct. I’m not a politician but I am in sales so please forgive me if I’m coming across as “sale-sy”.
Thanks Shaun as always for the sobering reminder of our calling as Christians.
Kevin
john says:
shaun,
i think i understand better now what you mean by event church. an event church would be a church that is mostly about getting people in the doors on sunday? a church that doesn’t have a reasonably balanced approach to connecting people in community, service, healing, growth?
that would also mark the difference between an event church and an attactional church, right?
curious..what would you call a church that is neither an event church nor an attractional church?
i love the conversation with all these passionate folks.
Shaun Groves says:
John, yes. Glad I’m finally making sense ; )
Shawn bashor says:
I really don’t even know what to say to this post, but Shaun, I mean you know me a little bit and just imagine it is something really sarcastic.
Tim Ellens says:
I can help answer the question about “good” posted earlier in this conversation. “Making those who do good look good” has been our tagline for several years. You can get into a deep philosophical discussion about what “good” means, but sometimes I think we like to overanalyze things. Simply put, as an organization, we have a strong desire to be connoisseurs of good in our culture. With that desire we have a passion for telling the stories of organizations that are cause related and looking to make this world a better place. For us this doesn’t just include Christian entities. However, since we are at MinistryCom, and the audience is primarily churches, we want to help churches understand how to live their own unique story in a way that engages culture. Only when our society sees what we are doing will they hear what we are saying. The church has lost its dialogue with culture in many ways because it has largely refused to be a significant voice for things like social justice and the environment. I agree with some earlier comments about being missional and outward focused. We have to bring and be the church to people, not bring the people to church. We have to be agents of renewal in all areas of God’s creation regardless of political platform. I better stop before I go off on a soap box but I hope you hear my heart for my perception of the role of “good” in our culture…and know that everything good comes from God.
Tim Ellens
Strategic Creative Guy
CHANGE Design Group
Shaun Groves says:
Tim, thanks for stopping by. I didn’t answer the question about “good” earlier because, well, blindly, I thought the question was a little out of bounds and potentially mountain from molehill kind of stuff – but, turns out, great question. Thanks for a great answer.
And I hope you know as well, Tim, that my using your phrase was not a smack at your company or what you guys do. The phrase itself seemed to sum up well what the conference’s exhibitors and the folks I overheard talking in my little corner of the building were about. I hope everyone at missioncom, you included, doesn’t read more into this post than intended. I’m getting the feeling a few folks have assumed hostility on my part that just isn’t there.
The comments, on the other hand, have admittedly gone in a more critical (as in critical thinking) direction for sure, but I don’t control that. I go where they go and try to be a good boy while I’m there.
Thanks again for your two cents.
Curious, btw, what you mean by “The church has lost its dialogue with culture.” We’ve talked about this here before. My belief is a bit Anabaptist I suppose: we can’t be anywhere but in culture, in the world, in dialogue with it. The Amish are in it, “dialoging” with it, whether they want to be or not. Dialog, as I understand the term, and presume you define it, is automatic and unavoidable.
If I’m in my front yard handing out popsicles to neighbor kids, throwing the ball with the boy next door, forgiving my enemy in the office, working ethically and selflessly, living simply, loving constantly, listening worshipfully, speaking kindly and slowly, giving easily, then am I not having a dialog with culture that images God as He is? I’m not creating the dialogue, I am making it more centered on the divine.
Our dialog never stops and I cringe a little when we church leaders begin saying that dialog’s very existence hinges on the excellence of our buildings, web sites, marketing, sermons, music etc. This leads folks, I fear, to think they, because they’re without these professional tools and togetherness, are incapable of having a transforming effect on the world around them, of being useful, of being in dialog.
So, I’m curious what you mean by the phrase, and how we guard against my fear becoming a reality. I’d love an expert’s opinion and you don’t get more expert on this subject than you, Tim. Thanks for joining the conversation.
Tim Ellens says:
I hear you and agree with you wholeheartedly about dialog as you’ve defined it. What I was trying to get at is the answer to the question, “If your church were to leave your community tomorrow, who would protest?” It’s more of a corporate statement rather than an individual one the way I intended it. To me it has nothing to do with marketing, church facilities, websites or music… and everything to do with branding. I know that opens a whole can of worms of what we mean about branding but suffice it to say, an organization’s brand is largely made up of the collective perceptions of its audience. I would love my church to be known as an advocate for social justice, agent of renewal, and a voice of truth.
I feel the church that is totally about attracting people to their Sunday experience and their programs tends to isolate themselves. Someone wiser than me said its about the church’s sending capacity, not the seating capacity.
I don’t want to create dialog by selling you a direct mail piece. I want you to be Jesus out in your community.
Shaun Groves says:
Excellent, Tim. So then the line “Making those who do good look good” misleads me to believe you guys are about making a church that is an “advocate for social justice, agent of renewal, and a voice of truth” (and the ones that aren’t) have better curb appeal, better looking ads, websites, logos, tag lines, color and paper choices, fonts, billboards, newsletters etc.
What I’m hearing you say though is that it just sounds that way. What you’re really doing then is teaching churches that the Good News has everything to do with a present kingdom, the reign of God in every way right now, the healing of the sick, feeding of the hungry, freeing of the slaves, ending of wars, sheltering the homeless, employing the poor, educating the unlearned, extending grace to the addict, adopting the orphan, teaching and encouraging and correcting the professed follower of Jesus, facilitating celebration and discussion and relationships, etc etc etc? Is that right? How do you do that?
Geneva says:
“I don’t think it’s biblical to justify our actions as a local church by pointing to baptism stats. Baptism is not conversion, is not following, and is not the Good News (Mark 1).”
AMEN. Our church actually received a trophy and letter of commendation for # of baptisms for a church under a certain number of members.
Tim Ellens says:
Yea, your kind of taking the lid of our future messaging (the cobblers kids are without shoes). Our display and website have been using the line “Making those who do good look good.” We will be transitioning in the next couple months to a new brand presentation that changes our name to CHANGE Effect and incorporates the tagline, “ This is where the story gets good.” [double entendre on “good”]
So the answer to your last question is, “by creating a compelling story that is authentic and of which people can be a part.” Your last paragraph is ideal. I absolutely love it and think it truly represents Jesus. And I would love every church to be able to authentically be able to tell that story. The reality is that most cannot. But we can work, even in baby steps, to go that way. We recently worked with a church that is traditional, 150 years old, thought they were innovative because they had a contemporary service (amidst 3 traditional services) with a praise band. They told me they were distinctive because of their worship experience. It was nothing special. Instead we discovered they were distinctive because they had an incredible community presence. Unlike most churches they had a large percentage of people involved in “community betterment” occupations or volunteer roles including a battered women’s ministry, homeless outreach, envirnomental initiatives and other social justice issues. They were keeping it a secret (didn’t want to brag). What they didn’t realize is that they had a whole community out there wanting to be invited into their life of service. That was their story. They just needed to tell it.
Not every church has that kind of story to uncover. Most are pretty self-focussed and program oriented. So our mission goes further than to just articulate their unique story. The challenge is to go help lead them down the path to be truly missional – outward focused. It’s really easy to get cynical and give up. The bottom line is we can’t write a story a church can’t live.
BTW, I appreciate the banter and the push back. I sense your heart in your last paragraph. You have a gift of music (my kids hide under a table if I sing). We have a gift for being able to capture a church’s unique DNA in a compelling story. Both are emotional.
Bet you didn’t count on this kind of conversation when you took your kids to church on Thursday night
Shaun Groves says:
Very cool..and encouraging, Tim. Glad you’re changing your tag line – a bit misleading as it is, to me anyway. Makes me think you’re a packager of whatever they bring you, not a manufacturer of missional churches, or catalyst for purpose finding.
Bet you didn’t count on this kind of conversation when you took your kids to church on Thursday night
Nope. But I’m always up for it. Thanks for joining it and explaining some of what’s being done to turn event churches (my word, not yours) around. Your language and ideas sound more than a little Seth Godin-like. Discovering the uniqueness of a product (in this case, a church): he calls this the “free prize inside” and products that are unique are called “purple cows.” Going as far as you can in the direction of your uniqueness: he calls this going to the edge. Telling a story: he calls this telling a “lie” or allowing consumers to tell themselves one.
None of this is inherently evil of course but I do wonder when the marketing of church gets in the way of being church. Does it? When? Not a question for you alone, Tim. I’ve eaten up enough of your time and you’ve been very gracious with it. The rest of you lurking: When, if ever, is marketing a church or the Church interfering with being a church or the Church?
I think Tim hit on one of my answers already: when a story is told that the church can’t live. IN other words, when the marketing is a lie. The sign out front says “Loving God, Loving people,” for instance, but people aren’t being loved, and, so, God isn’t being loved (Matthew 25).
Evan McBroom says:
Great dialog Shaun, Shawn, Tim, Dawn and others. I was at MinistryCOM (attendee, exhibitor and transition-boy for general sessions.) Thanks Shaun for sparking and continuing this rich conversation.
I’d love to add that I met and had conversations with people from mega-churches and churches of 1000 and under who are just trying to figure out how to organize, corral, funnel, flow or reduce the communication that is intended for their congregation or community. I met people from many faith traditions who I would not consider “event churches” as defined above. The people I met seemed to have big hearts, real problems, perceived limited budgets, and ever present deadlines. I didn’t feel like this conference was not about making the big Sunday event bigger or better – it was about helping bring clarity to complexity. (just speaking about some of the people I met) It seems that in the midst of everything that their church has chosen to be, they desire do their job in a way that honors God, helps people and advance Christ.
Don’t know what I have said that might spark a response…but I’m eager for the conversation to continue.
Daniel D says:
Wow. What a great exchange here. Great thoughts and insights from all. So pleased to see what could have become a heated debate stay mostly civilized and constructive.
My 2 cents. I think many churches are doing what they feel is best to reach people in their communities. I hope that God uses the individuality of each church to meet the needs of specific types of people so that they can then be transformed and go from being served to serving. I think a lot of times we don’t trust God enough to let Him use methods we may not use ourselves.
I’d have to agree though that there is a danger when the church, as an organization, gets so big that the mortgage or the equipment begin to carry more weight than its purpose.
Shawn Wood says:
Shaun,
Thanks foe the reply and I think we are on the same page (though probably not the same word) which is what makes the body of Christ so cool.
I think that you can be overspending at $1 or $100 million dollars and that the bottom line is to do what you think glorifies Jesus. Sometimes it is even choosing between two good things which is really hard.
Thanks for your ministry – I am pretty sure you played a show at our Tuesday night young adult “event”
– here at Seacoast last year and I heard great reports that it was a good show…
Press on and I hope your little man feel better.
Shawn
btw- to answer your question – as experiences pastor I help shepherd anything that effects the Seacoast experience – this falls into the buckets of the weekend, web and word-of-mouth (i.e. marketing)
angie says:
This dicussion is very eye opening to this midwest girl . . .that being said and realizing that I don’t know everything. . .I would like to say that the last comment I found eyebrow raising. Some others too, but you know can you respond to everything? Anyway here I go. . .
If everyone did what they ‘Think glorifies Jesus’ we wouldn’t get very far, and frankly it’s no wonder the ‘world’ often runs from us.
There are things in Scripture that are set in stone and it doesn’t matter what we ‘Think’. And maybe I’m reading more into that and it’s not what you meant, but I figured it needed to be said.
Shaun,
Thanks for the interesting and thought provoking conversation!