Shaun Groves
Recently, I stumbled onto a list of “Christian classics” and decided to read them all.
To read them all. Because I have a hard time doing anything in moderation.
I was doing great at first. I loved the first few books on the list.
Then I started in on The Practice Of The Presence Of God by Brother Lawrence. (Actually, I’d heard that it’s a hard read so I got an updated more reader-friendly version called Practicing His Presence.)
It’s awful. The worst great book I’ve ever read.
Brother Lawrence was a footman (a servant) in the 1600s who tried to “turn” his thoughts toward God every minute of the day. And he failed because it was impossible to focus only on God and still do his work well. So he quit work, withdrew from society and became a monk, serving in the kitchen doing rote work that allowed him to think only about God all day for forty years.
His peaceful disposition was legendary. People wrote him – even other monks and nuns – asking advice on how to “live more spiritually.” Practicing The Presence Of God is a collection of correspondence with them.
Every letter says the same thing: Try to turn your thoughts to God every minute of every day. You will fail but keep trying. Do this out of love for God.
For Brother Lawrence, this is the only “work” of the Christian life: think about God. A CHristian, he writes, only needs meditation – for healing, for pleasure, for worship. Focussing our thoughts on God is all we need?
In response to a woman asking Brother Lawrence to pray for an end to her illness, he writes…
Though I know you are suffering, I am not praying that you will be delivered from your pain. Nonetheless, I do pray. I earnestly ask God to give you strength and patience to bear your pain as long as it pleases Him. God has fastened you to a cross…
Rely upon no physician; for according to my understanding, the Lord reserves the cure to Himself. He will remedy your sickness in His time. Therefore, put all your trust in Him and you will soon discover the effect on your recovery. We often retard our recovery by putting a greater confidence in the medical world than in God…
You don’t need medicine, Brother Lawrence seems to be saying, you only need to get alone somewhere, be quiet and focus all your thoughts on God – all day. I think that’s going too far, don’t you?
Brother Lawrence went so far as to say that when a person becomes good at turning her thoughts to God continuously, she will no longer need times of devotional reading, structured prayer, a community to worship and learn with, or any other spiritual discipline. Also too far, right?
Maybe Brother Lawrence had a hard time doing anything in moderation too.
If a little quiet and meditation throughout the day is good, then why not become a monk and do nothing but meditate in silence? If focussing on God makes me happy, why do anything else for pleasure? If meditation makes me most aware of God’s presence, why sing songs, read books, serve the poor or take in a sermon? If thinking on God makes me feel stronger when I’m sick, who needs doctors?
Practicing The Presence Of God is repetitive and Brother Lawrence’s extremism sure leads to some theologically squirrelly moments…but I like Brother Lawrence – his discipline, devotion, excitement, challenge to think on God. I like him. Even when he’s wrong.
So he’s a man of extremes who can’t do anything good in moderation. At least he’s passionate.
Yea, I’ll go with “passionate.”
Read any old books lately that you’re passionate about? Recommend one!
Adam Shields says:
I have been trying to read old books lately. I read a lot. And mostly read newer books. But it feels more spiritual to read old books. (and they are free on kindle.)
Last year I read a dozen or so. And for the most part I hated them. Alice in Wonderland reads like a bad drug trip (I have been told I didn’t get all of the subtle humor and irony, but you know what, I just wanted to read a story, not undertake a college course.)
Ethan Frome was at least short, but I still could barely get through it.
I read an abridged version of Les Mis (I have read the full version a long time ago and while there are points of brilliance, it is way too long.)
I listened to Anne Hathaway read Wizard of Oz and Colin Firth read End of the Affair. And those were fabulous. Part of it was good narrators (I am a big fan of good audiobooks.)
I also like reading EM Bounds’s books on prayer, but his books are very repetitive (at least they are short.)
I am continuing to read old books. But I am way past the point where I think something is good because it is old.
It might be important, but that is not the same thing as good. I think of it like Citizen Kane. I watched it the first time and could not figure out what the big deal was. Then I watched a documentary about why it was so important. With context I appreciated the film making. But I still don’t think it is a great movie. It is an important movie. But that is not the same thing as great.
Benjamin Johnson says:
Shaun,
Do you have a link to that list of Christian classics?
-Benjamin
Shaun Groves says:
Sure don’t, Benjamin. But I know Wheaton has a list somewhere on-line. Saw it ages ago. The list I saw more recently was in print at the back of an AW Tozer book.
Liz Roberson says:
Well, I’m not sure what qualifies a book as “old”, but I have been reading the devotional book Streams in the Desert. It is coming up on a hundred years since it was published. Old enough?
All I can really say is that I’m amazed daily at how relevant the writings are to my own life. In a weird way, it encourages me to have something somewhere between the times of biblical writing and now that speaks so honestly about the process of sanctification.
And thanks for the tip about this one. The title had intrigued me, before. Is there, perhaps, another book on the subject of God’s presence that you would recommend instead?
Shaun Groves says:
Oh, that’s a great book! Back in 1997 or 98 there was an album by the same title that came out – songs inspired by the writing. You should check that out too.
grace at {gabbing with grace} says:
I started & didn’t finish this book…but like you, I ate the meat & spit out the bones. All in all, practicing the presence of God as 1 (of many) spiritual disciplines has been one of the most rewarding & significant practices in deepening my faith. I have mad respect for that brotha. He was nothing if not legit!
Shaun Groves says:
Great way to put it, grace. Spit out the bones.
Aaron K. says:
I read the Practice of the Presence of God quite a few years ago, and I found it to be a help in remembering that God lives within every believer. This discipline encouraged me to do all of my work with greater joy because I was working to please God and not men. That is what I gained from the book.
Another classic you might consider is The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis. It always takes me a while to get through this one because I had to give my feet a rest. Steel-toe boots highly recommended for this one. I’m sure there is some questionable theology in this one as well, but there is a lot of good to be taken away.
Shaun Groves says:
The Imitation Of Christ is next on my list, Aaron!
Melissa Jones says:
I read it about a decade ago and really appreciated the idea, but I don’t know that I did anything about it. I think when we’re confronted by ideas like this, the phrase “don’t be so heavenly minded that you’re no earthly good” comes to mind for all of us. And because that’s such a pithy phrase (however Biblical or un-Biblical you think it is), we ignore or discount the idea as a whole.
I’ve seen the same thing happen when our small group read “Crazy Love” together. It’s a great _idea_ to go to crazy extremes in the name of Jesus…..but the reality is that I have a job to go to and a mortgage to pay. So I’ll just tuck that nice idea away and go back to living like I did before.
There are a WHOLE lot of people who would say that not paying into a retirement account and giving away 50% of your income is a CRAZY extreme way to live. To you it’s normal.
I don’t know what my point is here.
I do know that I’m tired of group book/Bible studies where we talk about the nice ideas presented, but we never actually implement those ideas. We never actually _change_ as a result of what we’ve read. We’ve been hearers (and even agree-ers), but not doers.
I was about to put a caveat here about not saying that I thought Bro. Lawrence was right about the medicine stuff……but I think that sometimes God _does_ say “trust me” and if He tells you that, then you should _do_ that….but it’s an individual thing. But I don’t want to go so far as to say “what’s good for you is ok and what’s good for me is ok” because that’s _not_ what I’m saying….maybe my point is that God leads each of us differently and instead of saying ‘That’s so crazy extreme! I could never do that!’ we should instead say ‘That’s so crazy cool what God called him/her to do! I wonder what I could learn from God’s calling of him/her? Is He calling me to do the same? Am I reticent because of my culture? Am I reticent because of fear? Or did God really just call him/her to something different from me?’
I’m not talking about you in particular here, Shaun, this is something I’ve been “percolating” on for a while now. Clearly it’s not done brewing yet.
Amy says:
That’s so crazy extreme! I could never do that!’ we should instead say ‘That’s so crazy cool what God called him/her to do! I wonder what I could learn from God’s calling of him/her? Is He calling me to do the same? Am I reticent because of my culture? Am I reticent because of fear? Or did God really just call him/her to something different from me?’
Yes, absolutely this.
Jessica says:
Let’s all just quit our jobs and isolate ourselves (no spouse or kids, they’re too much of a distraction, obviously).
We’d all be so epically spiritual.
Shaun Groves says:
Sarcasm noted ; )
Liz says:
ha ha!! Yes!
shayne says:
I read this book once. Once.
Madame Guyon was another person who believed in praying and directing one’s thoughts constantly to God.
I’m guessing they took their cues from Anna the prophetess mentioned in Luke?
Kelli says:
That quote from Brother Lawrence is great. Perfect for where I am right now, really. I need to learn to pray that prayer for myself. Peace and patience to bear the pain as long as it pleases Him.
The idea of practicing His presence fascinates me. I actually just told my husband the other day that I don’t want to be alone at all right now because me and my thoughts are not friendly to one another these days.
The irony of it all is that I have more alone time than I’ve ever had thanks to Lee’s hectic traveling schedule and the fact that I spent so much time focusing on other things this past year that I forgot to make friends in our new town. So I’m either alone with the kids or alone with my thoughts.
I’m practicing turning them to Him, but I’m admittedly not very good at it right now.
As far as good books, well I’m not much of a non-fiction girl. Hard to keep focus (although I am reading the Bonhoeffer biography right now and I find it fascinating). I usually let my super smart husband read those books then paraphrase them for me so I can sound smart when I’m out with other smart people.
But fiction…oh I love fiction. Mostly the fru-fru books you’re afraid of: Pride and Prejudice, Anna Karenina (read it at least once a year), Poisonwood Bible, etc… 😉
Shaun Groves says:
Oh, Kelli, don’t swallow the whole quote. If you wrote to tell me you were suffering, I’d absolutely pray you endure to the end but you bet I’d also ask God to stop your suffering too. And if your suffering were physical I’d suggest you go see a doctor ; ).
Speaking of which…praying for you and yours daily. So brokenhearted about Russia closing its doors to international adoption.
Btw, speaking of books…how’s yours coming??
Kelli says:
Thanks, Shaun. We’re brokenhearted, too. But not without hope. 🙂
My book: I have roughly five chapters left, all of which are outlined. I am one long weekend away from finishing that bad boy.
When it’s all said in done the manuscript will probably be about 425 pages long, which means editing is going to be a bear. 🙂
But, I’m close! Woo! Thanks for asking!
Anastasia says:
Yes! It was a bio of the missionary Amy Carmichael! It’s interesting, there is a reference in that book to Brother Lawrence…I think… Anyway, I am going back now and recording in my journal all my underlinings I made while reading and then praying them into my life as I am led. (There are at least two other bios of her along with the over 30 books she wrote from India…I have good reading ahead!)
Rachel Wade says:
The Pursuit of God turns me inside out each time I read it. Here is just one quote you will would appreciate…
“Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other? They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow. So one hundred worshipers [meeting] together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be, were they to become ‘unity’ conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.” A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God
Matthew W says:
I’m in the process of reading the entire Sherlock Holmes collection. It’s a blast!
Matthew W says:
I didn’t think if this until I read Kelli’s comment. I read Pride & Prejudice and The Count of Monte Cristo last year and LOVED them both. I’m planning on reading the unabridged of the latter eventually.
Kim says:
I read & re-read the classic “With Christ in the School of Prayer” by Andrew Murray. No matter how many times I read it, with each chapter I learn something fresh & new. I have just spent the past weekend visiting MissionsFest here in Vancouver, BC and listening to speakers reminding us of the incredible power of God to transform lives in ways that we can barely conceive of in N.America. They remind us that the two most important keys in the transformation of the people, the communities & the nations are in reading, knowing & living the Word of God and much fervent prayer. Prayer like we in N.America might call extreme, but to them it brings the power and presence of God. This book helps me to have a fresh perspective on how to pray. Even after many years of being a believer, I still feel that I am only just beginning to learn how. This book is a real little gold nugget!
Douglas says:
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding Brother Laurence of the Resurrection and not reading him in context.
Surely, this is an unfair summary of what he wrote, “If thinking on God makes me feel stronger when I’m sick, who needs doctors?”
Laurence was a mystic who was writing to a particular person about a particular illness. Given the state of medicine in the 1600s, I find his advice eminently reasonable, even without taking into account that he was considered by contemporaries to be a mystic with prophetic gifts. Try not to generalize his brief writings. He wasn’t writing as a Fundamentalist Protestant, but as a Catholic monk.
Similarly, I think your earlier summary of what he wrote was expresses another misunderstanding, “You don’t need medicine, Brother Lawrence seems to be saying, you only need to get alone somewhere, be quiet and focus all your thoughts on God – all day. ”
Where in the text did he tell the lady to go be quiet and alone and focus all her thoughts on God – all day? He recognized that people have different vocations in life and that his life devoted to service of God was unique in the amount and quality of time it allowed him to devote to prayer. To imply that he would consider imposing his life on a random lady who asked for advice is incorrect.
In a similar vein, I just don’t buy that this summary of Brother Laurence is accurate, “Brother Lawrence went so far as to say that when a person becomes good at turning her thoughts to God continuously, she will no longer need times of devotional reading, structured prayer, a community to worship and learn with, or any other spiritual discipline.”
Just picking one thing that is obviously inaccurate, Brother Laurence lived in community. He contributed to and relied on that community for daily sustenance. How could he tell others that they don’t need community?
Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is not that you will agree with Brother Laurence once you understand him. I just don’t think you understand him enough to be able to define those areas reliably. Honestly, believing as you do in a version of Christianity that didn’t exist until very recently, I think you would be hard pressed to find ANY Christians from more than a few centuries ago that you don’t have significant disagreements with theologically. As Newman said, “And this utter incongruity between Protestantism and historical Christianity is a plain fact, whether the latter be regarded in its earlier or in its later centuries. Protestants can as little bear its Ante-nicene as its Post-tridentine period. I have elsewhere observed on this circumstance: “So much must the Protestant grant that, if such a system of doctrine as he would now introduce ever existed in early times, it has been clean swept away as if by a deluge, suddenly, silently, and without memorial; by a deluge coming in a night, and utterly soaking, rotting, heaving up, and hurrying off every vestige of what it found in the Church…”
Shaun Groves says:
Great points all around, Douglas. You’re absolutely right: I don’t understand Brother Lawrence’s writing. That’s why I used the phrase “seems to be saying.” I’m not certain what he’s saying! ; )
Your insight is certainly helpful! Thanks for offering it, Douglas.
You wrote…
In a similar vein, I just don’t buy that this summary of Brother Laurence is accurate, “Brother Lawrence went so far as to say that when a person becomes good at turning her thoughts to God continuously, she will no longer need times of devotional reading, structured prayer, a community to worship and learn with, or any other spiritual discipline.”
Maybe it is inaccurate. Here is one of many sections of the book I interpreted to mean that Brother Lawrence believed meditation on God was superior to and replaced all other disciplines…
FROM THE CHAPTER “BEYOND ANY METHOD”: I have given up all forms of devotion and set prayers other than those to which my state obliges me. My only business now is to persevere in His holy presence.
In my copy of the book “all forms” and “only business” are in italics for emphasis. I could quote several other similar passages that make the same point (and in one does mention that being alone in the kitchen suits turning his thoughts to God better than performing duties that pull his thoughts elsewhere.) And he does speak very generally to the sick woman about the superiority of meditation over medicine for healing, so I took it generally. Honest mistake huh?
Thanks again for the insight, Douglas. Would love to learn more.
Drew M says:
Good comments guys, I tend to agree a bit with Douglas also. When I read this quote…
“I have given up all forms of devotion and set prayers other than those to which my state obliges me. My only business now is to persevere in His holy presence.”
I get a sense that he may be making a break from the normal routine – a breaking of tradition so to speak. Rather than going through the motions of all the daily routines and canned text prayers, he began to focus on the holiness… and in my opinion, sovereignty of God. That has been one thing that has helped me immensely through some of the things I have been through. It’s like one of the previous folks commented… we are good hearers, but do we really put to use what we hear. Do we really understand or experience what we are hearing?
We all seem to “know” a lot yet many are still unsatisfied or missing something. In that brief post, I see a man who spent time with God, focusing on His beauty and in return understands that God is in control of everything. To me, if it took Bro Lawrence a lifetime of alone time with God in what seemed to be a meaningless job at the time to learn what others seemed to want to know more about… then He was probably right where God wanted him. If his years of practice in the presence of God could offer one person a little glimmer of hope, then it was not time spent in vein… I mean vain. 🙂
I think if we ourselves put all the books down and all the devotional material that’s out there and put aside all the opinions of man and their interpretations of Scripture and focused more on getting alone with God for a bit – we also would really begin to understand what an opportunity and a privilege it is to be able to come into the presence of a Holy God maybe the way he did.
That’s just my own takeaway from that but I haven’t read the book. God bless, Bros!
Douglas says:
Shaun,
I’m not sure you follow threads in old blog posts, but if you do, here’s some more on this topic.
Thanks for the generous interpretation of my writing. After rereading it, I realize that it came off a bit harsh and I didn’t offer any positive suggestions for understanding Brother Laurence better. You say that you’d love to learn more, and I’ve thought about that many, many times over the last couple months. Honestly, I’ve been struggling with mental illness in a family member after their best friend from high school’s suicide, so I’ve not had much time to research this more these last few months. If you would like, I can put you in touch with an deacon who is also a lay member of the Discalced Carmelites, which Brother Laurence was a part of. This friend understands Br. Laurence’s writing quite well. He gave me a critical edition of the book a decade or so ago, though I haven’t been able to find it to compare the translation of the passage you cite. Incidentally, my friend was also a room-mate with Rich Mullins when they went to Cincinnati Bible College, so you might have an interesting music connection there. Just e-mail me at the listed e-mail address, and I can get his contact info to you, if you want. He is one of the most gentle, thoughtful and holy people I’ve ever met: definitely not the brusque engineer that I can be.
Doug
Douglas says:
“FROM THE CHAPTER “BEYOND ANY METHOD”: I have given up all forms of devotion and set prayers other than those to which my state obliges me. My only business now is to persevere in His holy presence.”
Keep in mind that as a monk, Br. Laurence’s state of life “obliged” him to listen/read to scripture and pray through the psalms and other prayers numerous times and for several hours a day total. Monks in his state prayed through all 150 psalms every week, in addition to other Scriptural/spiritual reading/meditation/preaching/etc.. When he says, “other than those to which my state obliges me,” he is talking about what he does above and beyond the several hours of required spiritual practices. Given that he’s already listening to sermons, reading/listening to scripture and praying a half dozen times a day for several hours total, he’s already spending more time in prayer, etc. than pretty much anyone you or I know. He’s definitely not recommending that such things be abandoned. He’s just saying what he found to be most useful *in addition to* the other stuff.
Sandy says:
I’m loving reading ‘Revelations of Divine Love’ by Julian of Norwich and ‘Christ Within Me: Daily Readings from the Anglo-Saxon Tradition’ which is in bite-sized chunks. I also loved reading about Therese de Lisieux last year but I can’t recall the name of the book. I hope you share more of your journey with the blogosphere 🙂
Kris says:
I have not read this one by Brother Lawrence, and I don’t think I will just now. I’ve got too many other promising books waiting on my nightstand.
I get the whole passionate/extremist thing a bit. I ten to be like that, but I also tend to burn out from my own enthusiasm which leads me to believe that moderation would be a much better way to go, of course, I think when it come to the Gospel, passion is the way to go. But that passion is infused by the Holy Spirit, and not mustered up by my own strength.
That was the longest sentence ever–clearly I needed more sleep last night.
It’s good to see you posting again, Shaun. Been missing your words.
Annabel says:
I actually took a lot from Brother Lawrence’s book. 🙂
I recently finished William Law’s “A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life”. Mr. Law is totally serious about being devout and holy! I found it challenging, because he sets the bar very high. This forced a lot of self-examination on my part and a lot of examining scripture. I’d highly recommend it.
Shaun Groves says:
I took a little form his book…again and again ; ). How many ways can he tell us to turn our thoughts to God. Great prescription but the repetition was baffling. I had a hard time judging this collection of letters the same way I would a book…since, you know, they’re printed as a book ; ).
I need to read A Serious Call To A Devout And Holy Life. What can you tell me about William Law?
Liz says:
Well, it’s not old but I’m finishing up Stephanie Nielson’s book “Heaven is Here” right now. Awesome book! Although our faiths are different, she did a really good job of conveying her utter dependence on God and how He got her through the horror of being burned alive in a plane crash and then recovering. Amazing book! I’m all about biographies, though. Not everyone is.
Jill Foley says:
I started reading “classics” a little over a year ago. My goal is 3 a year and I just started my 5th one this week. I’ve read Don Quixote, Pride and Prejudice, Pilgrim’s Progress, Gulliver’s Travels and now Walden.
I’m not really passionate about any of them.
Shaun Groves says:
Becky did that. Her list of classics looked like a high school reading list – all the books I owned the Cliff Notes for ; ). She rapidly read through the list until Madame Bovary. That book killed her reading spree and she hasn’t returned to the list yet ; ).
Yvonne says:
Bonhoeffer by Eric Metaxas was a long and incredible read for me last year. Just finished Jesus + Nothing = Everything, so rich with the gospel that one is!
Penny says:
I would love to add something philosophical and theological and deep, but all I can think is..
how the heck do you find time to read books?!?
🙂
Lisa S says:
The kids and I visited a Benedictine Monastery recently. I went in thinking we’d merely see the pretty buildings and get a dose of serenity, but instead we had a young man, a monk, give us a three-hour tour (*a three-hour tour*) of the place, telling us all about his daily routine and what it means to be a modern-day monk. I was simultaneously amazed and… baffled. I love mind-stretching stuff like that.
Janelle says:
Yes, that is extreme. Besides, if all you’re doing is thinking about God all day, how are you able to go OUT and DO for God? And if someone sick came up to me, I would lay hands on that person, and command sickness to go, because that is what we all, as Christians, have been commanded to do. (Mark 16:18 as one example)
Janelle