Shaun Groves
Dan Cathy’s conversation with Ken Coleman about leadership (and gay marriage) made headlines.
In the wake of his remarks, supporters of gay marriage took a stand by boycotting Dan’s company, Chick-fil-A. Some Christians took a stand by buying more chicken. Many bloggers took a stand.
And in my inbox…”Why haven’t you taken a stand on this yet?”
And in a group study at church yesterday…”But culture is getting so…don’t we have to take a stand?”
But I’m not angry. I’m not passionate. I don’t feel jilted or persecuted or outraged.
What’s wrong with me? No part of me wants to take a stand.
Some men came to Jesus one day, eager to tell Him the terrible news.
“They’ve killed again!,” they may have panted. “This time we know Pilate ordered the executions, Rabbi. This time they broke into our place of worship, mixed the blood of innocent Galileans with the sacrifice on the alter. This is an attack on God!” (Luke 13)
Soldiers sent by a debauched politician had broken divine and national law.
These types of massacres were common in the first Century. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote about several. He also chronicled the typical Jewish response. His accounts support the claims of Acts 5:36,27…
“For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody; and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. And he was slain; and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. “After this man Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away some people after him, he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.”
In response to acts of Roman brutality, a Jewish leader would rise up and take a stand (sometimes violently). Throngs of people followed him to their deaths. Then another leader would rise up to replace him. He and his followers would take a stand to death. When that leader passed away, another would rise up and…
Now, after hearing that fellow Jews from his own neighborhood were murdered and their God mocked, would Jesus be the next to rise up and take a stand?
Several commentaries speculate that this was the hope of the tattlers. They were trying to goad Jesus into taking a stand against the Roman politicians, against Herodian Jews who supported Roman rule, take a stand for the zealots who wanted to overthrow the Romans and create a theocracy.
And Jesus did stand. But in an unexpected way.
Jesus responded, “Do you think those murdered Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans? Not at all. Unless you turn to God, you, too, will die.” (Luke 13:2,3 The Message)
What?
“And those eighteen in Jerusalem the other day,” Jesus continued, “the ones crushed and killed when the Tower of Siloam collapsed and fell on them, do you think they were worse citizens than all other Jerusalemites? Not at all. Unless you turn to God, you, too, will die.” (Luke 13:4,5 The Message)
Jesus seems to have taken two stands that day.
First, tragedy is not punishment for sin.
Massacres in Galilee or Aurora, Colorado are not God’s punishment of sinners. If God were murdering sinners then Earth would be vacant. No, death comes (eventually) to us all so…
Second, get ready for death.
Acknowledge that you yourself, while not a murderer or a corrupt politician or a rights trampler, are a sinner deserving death everlasting. “Repent.” Give your sin, your eternity, your life today, your mind and strength and soul to God. And when you die you will live.
The tattlers must have been shocked. One commentator sums up their mistaken thinking this way.
“Jesus is more concerned with the eternal than the temporal. This is not to say that the loss of the people wasn’t serious, but Jesus’ mission was not to settle political disputes… The people were too short-sighted.”
Most shocking about the example of Jesus to me? He said nothing about the Romans. He didn’t publicly condemn their actions. Didn’t even mention them.
I’ve read all the red letters over the last week and not once could I find Jesus criticizing those outside the family of God for behaving like it. Jesus expected sinners to sin.
I’m most tempted to take a stand when my expectations are higher than Christ’s.
And these expectations of mine rob Jesus of his purpose – to save sinners, to live in them, because only by living through them could they desire and do good at all.
I forget there is no shortcut to righteousness. No magistrate, legislation, picket sign can bring change faster. We all must travel to the cross: Where one God-man took a stand against death and won so that anyone could have a new life.
sarah valente (kingdom mama) says:
Absolutely! I fully agree that there was nothing shocking or outrageous by done by non-Christians. I think it was nice to be able to stand behind a brother who had been a little “persecuted,” though, and I think we should do that. But to those who took things to an ugly place in the name of Christ, or called those presaved “sinners”. Well, DUH, they’re sinners. So are you. Just love them! 🙂
Beth says:
I agree. I wasn’t taking a stand because sinners were being sinners. We are ALL sinners; including ME! I was standing for free speech. The vast majority of those who were outraged by Mr. Cathy’s comments, were not at all concerned about his right to speak. They were very angry at the fact that he believes what he does and “gasp,” said it aloud! The liberal media whose very existence depends on the right of free speech, was outraged by the fact that an individual exercised his right; because it didn’t align with theirs. We are in danger of losing our rights as Americans if we don’t stand up to those who seek to strip us of them. I understand that I’m not who I am because of America; but I am an American too, and I cherish those freedoms granted and fought for by so many.
Shaun Groves says:
Mr. Cathy was free to speak. And others were free to get angry, boycott, call him names. And you’re free to get angry and buy more chicken to show your support.
No one’s rights were ever endangered.
But our uniqueness as Christians was. What about our response was distinctively Christian?
Christ’s response in Luke 13 was distinctive – not the norm. Was ours?
Melissa Jones says:
The right to free speech issue was raised when the mayors “took a stand” against CFA by threatening to keep them out of their cities. I’m pretty sure it’s already in all the dictionaries as an example of the term “ironic.”
Shaun Groves says:
All this over the threat that someone might to violate someone’s rights?
Melissa Jones says:
It’s an easy thing to do – eat someplace you might have eaten at anyway and do it for a _cause_. That’ll show ’em. Not sure who exactly “they” are that we were showing, or what exactly it was we were saying, but we did it! And we did it together! And if you didn’t, then you were somewhat suspect as a Christian and/or conservative (in many eyes).
But yeah….I think it was the free speech angle that woke the sleeping giant in this instance.
Wendy Webb says:
I agree 100%
Jenn says:
All week last week (and before) I kept going back to that temporal vs. eternal thing.
And after seeing all the pictures of all my friends at CFA on Wednesday I kept thinking how CFA’s bottom line escaped unscathed, but the Bride of Christ did not.
I am just worn out on all the “buts.” “Yes, we are called to love others, but…” But, but, but!
Vicki says:
My emotional response was like that of many conservatives, many Christians: that Mr. Cathy’s rights were being trampled; that the liberal media and all who called Mr. Cathy and CFA hateful names were “robbing” him of his rights–and robbing CFA of the right to run its business as it sees fit.
An article written by someone whose name I didn’t know and, therefore, can’t remember did a good job of delineating where CFA’s rights were, in fact, trampled on, but the sources were the various civic “leaders” who denounced CFA’s right to conduct business in their cities, or to build new stores there. No government, at any level, can restrict our right to conduct business within its jurisdiction. Probably, the mayor of Baltimore(?) figured that out or was told, and then backed down.
But all the people who so lovingly called Mr. Cathy horrible names and accused CFA of distributing and support “hate”–? No, they were simply exercising their own rights, as you have said.
On a less-emotional level, I understand that. And I also understand–and thought I had learned 30+ years ago–that we waste time and energy when we are shocked, horrified and dismayed by unChrist-like behavior in those who don’t know Him. Sadly, there is more than enough that should shock, horrify and dismay us among people who do, or who claim to know Him. I am sometimes among them, and then I am shocked, etc., by my own behavior and/or attitudes.
dd says:
I am a Christian in a committed loving relationship with someone of the same sex. On the first, my faith wad shaken and my heart broken by all the hate demonstrated by fellow Christians. Not one person came to Christ by eating CFA, but many were pushed further away. What is your witness, is a cause more important than souls? Is a chicken sandwich better than treating your fellow man with respect? I have a feeling Jesus would have turned over tables at CFA that day. Love your fellow man into the kingdom, don’t hate them. Leave it to God to change and judge us. Jesus said (red letter text) that when we get to heaven God will only ask one question: what did you do for the least of these? He does not ask for your sexual orientation. The church needs to redirect its attacks away from gay people to doing what Jesus said is important.
Shaun Groves says:
DD,
Can you explain how you felt “hate” from Christian support for Chick-fil-A? That’s a strong word and I don’t know that it’s accurate to label the motivations of Chick-fil-A supporters as hateful. But you certainly felt hated. Can you help us understand why?
Thank you for sharing your unique perspective. There’s no hate for you here.
dd says:
Yes, it is such a strong word and most of the LGBTQ community felt that it was a personal attack on them. No one from the LGBTQ community thought it was about free speech or anything like that. Everyone in this community knew about CFA giving to organizations that try to prevent giving equality to us. Most of the gay community did not eat there before this happened. CFA through WindShape has funneled money to Family Research Council that has been identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center because of their hatred toward the LGBTQ. So when all this blew up and I saw friends posting on Facebook with smiles on their faces and CFA bags in hand, I was broken. I knew that they did not Love me and wanted to see me remain a second class citizen.
You see, we live just like everyone else; we have jobs, houses, brush our teeth twice a day, etc. We fall in love and many want to have a family. Some of us decide to foster children that the straight homes throw away. We give our love, attention and ourselves unselfishly away to abandoned children. We always have in the back of our minds that at any time the courts could take them away. We do it anyway, because it is better that they know love than to grow up in a group home with no love. Also, did you know that there are over 1000 government benefits given the straight families that are not offered to same sex couples? If I should pass away, the person I am committed to live my life with will have to pay an inheritance tax on everything (50%), possibly putting our family at risk of losing everything (House, etc, etc.). We do not want special rights, just equal rights. How fair is it for my family to lose the house and be put out on the street when we give all we can to help foster a broken society’s children. It does not seem very Christian to me, but then again it seems most Christians will define my by the type of sex that I have instead of the love that I have to offer.
This is what I posted on my Facebook after the CFA day:
Why I am against Chick-fil-a.
Chick-fil-a gave their money to groups that have sponsored a bill in Uganda that will make homosexuality punishable by death. Yes, DEATH! That is what dollars spent there are going towards. As an American, I believe that Dan Cathy has every right to give to whatever cause he wants to and has the right to say whatever he wants. But when his business gives millions to these causes, I will not support his business. I do not want the blood of Ugandan men and women on my hands, and not one penny of my money will go for that effort. I would rather invest my time with unwanted children, standing up for those that are oppressed, supporting healthcare for all Americans, giving to those who have need, and other biblical principles that Jesus would condone. Sometimes I think Jesus would have turned over the tables at Chick-fil-a yesterday. So much money was spent there yesterday, I could only imagine if everyone would have donated the money to a worthy cause, like to help unwanted children, teens living on the streets, widows, people that can’t pay their medical bills, the world would be just a little bit of a better place to live today. Instead, we just have a bunch of hypocrites that feel now better about themselves because they ate at Chick-fil-a. This is just my take on yesterday.
Shaun, we have met several times and laughed together. I have loved your music since your first CD.
Shaun Groves says:
dd, if you’re in the Nashville area, or if I’m ever in your area, I’d very much like to go to lunch and just listen. A lot of what you’re saying is news to me. And I bet there’s more where this has come from.
Linda says:
DD, I’d be very interested to know more about the Uganda thing. If this is true (not saying “if” as mistrust in your representation… I’m just very leary & suspicious of the media so I double & triple check everything) then I would not have gone to Chik fil-A.
Lyn says:
DD – this is my understanding of the FRC/Ugandan lobby issue… they were never accused of sponsoring or supporting a bill that killed Ugandan gays. They WERE accused of lobbying against a bill that would formally condone the practice. However, even that was taken out of context and blown up as all they lobbied against was some wording in the law…
The Tony Perkins-led FRC said it did lobby on the bill, but not to kill it – rather to change the language it contained and “to remove sweeping and inaccurate assertions that homosexual conduct is internationally recognized as a fundamental human right.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20006856-503544.html
I am a Christian. I do not hate gays. I did not eat at CFA that day but do eat there on a semi regular basis. ( I also tithe and give to many charities that feed hungry children, etc so I do not feel guilty at all about eating there). It turns my stomach that so many people get so worked up over such things. I did not comment on any of it on FB, Twitter, etc. and only spoke in a limited way to immediate family about it. But I do think everyone should have both sides of the issue before making judgments. Had I determined in my research that CFA actually gave money to support Ugandan atrocities, I of course would not support that business.
I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement – the church definitely should be about Being Jesus to the world.
Best Wishes~
dd says:
Lyn. Someone’s comment hit the nail on the head: Does FRC really expect us to believe that they spent $25,000 to spell check a bill? I would really like more of an explanation on that. Since the are listed as a hate group by the SPLC due to their lies, I just can’t seem to believe them now. But correct, the Uganda thing was mostly spread by Scott Lively.
No amount of persecution will stop one person from being born gay. And by persecuting gay men, they will go back in the closet and or the perfect husband, church going, .giving man by day. But when the dark comes, he will scout out others for sex. This still happens a lot today in our churches, even Co founder of the FRC, George Rekers was caught with a male prostitute. Trust me when I say, it is better that gays are out than trying to hide their identities.
BTW, please do not take offence to anything I said, it is just said to make you think.
Linda says:
I didn’t find anything on this either. I used a couple of sites to try to find something & there wasn’t anything…. I’m not necessarily done looking yet either. I checked snopes & also a site i like to use called truthorfiction.com (that one is more focused on email rumors going around.
Lyn says:
Hey DD – certainly no offense taken here. I will research a bit more on what qualified the FRC as a hate group and promise to ponder this and pray about it. Thanks!
Joel says:
the mark of a hate group in this day and age is one that doesn’t agree with you. if they do not agree with your choices, they must hate you right?
sadsadsadsad times.
Kara F. says:
By sharing this message you’re taking a stand I couldn’t put into my own words. Thank you Shaun!
Melissa Jones says:
I guess I don’t see this as necessarily a “Christian” vs. “non-Christian” issue. This wasn’t an attack on the “church” (however it’s defined), it was an attack on an individual and the (privately-owned) company that he leads. My only issue with the boycotts was that they probably wouldn’t have hurt CFA the company – they would have hurt the individual franchisees and their employees.
We joke that CFA is “Christian chicken,” but really it’s not, it’s a company that was founded (and is currently run) by Christians….but the company itself is no more “Christian” than a tree could be “Christian.” Were there believers who were among those who ate CFA on the 1st? Sure, but we were far from the only ones. And there were probably believers who participated in the protests/boycott against CFA.
There’s so much more to this than “do you hate gay people, or do you condone their every whim – pick one.” As a believer, individually, I should recognize that my sin is no less than anyone else’s (no matter what forms their sin or mine takes). That puts me in a position of humility, which is a pretty good starting point. As a citizen of the United States, it is part of my civic duty to protect the rights of Americans. Right now, the best way to do that is by using the media. The media pays attention when there are traffic jams and huge lines at a fast food restaurant. And what the media pays attention to, the politicians pay attention to. It is also part of my civic duty to (attempt to) vote into office people who _represent_ me and my beliefs/opinions into all levels of the legislative and executive branches, in addition to voting for/against laws according to my conscience/beliefs.
I guess my expectation here wasn’t that people wouldn’t get riled when Mr. Cathy expressed his beliefs or that other people wouldn’t get riled in return. My expectations had nothing to do with sinners vs. saved. (Mine were more about our leaders actually understanding discrimination and free speech.) So I guess I just don’t see how what you’re saying applies to this situation.
But assuming this were an actual attack on the church, what would you recommend we do instead? Others have said that we should “hide in the basement” until the storm blows over….but I think that keeps us from being “in the world.” I think it’s also naive as a citizen of this country to expect that those of us who aren’t haters (from either side) should just bow out of the fray and let both extremes battle. We should be peacemakers. Ministers of reconciliation. Did eating CFA on the 1st accomplish either of those things? Eh…I know there are a lot of angry people on both sides, but I also know that I’ve had a lot of rational, reasonable discussions with people because of this, so for me, yes, I think it did (well, not the actual eating, but the whole situation).
dd says:
Melissa,
“As a citizen of the United States, it is part of my civic duty to protect the rights of Americans”. Does that include the LGBTQ Americans? Do you support their right to have the same tax breaks as straight couples? Would you vote for their equality? Would you march side by side, hand in hand, with them? Would you donate money to help Teens that identify as LGBTQ that are living on our streets because they have been kicked out of their homes by their religious paertents?
Just some Civic duties that you may want to consider.
Melissa Jones says:
Well, dd….the tone that I’m hearing from your words is one that is rather accusatory. But since you don’t know me at all, other than through a single comment, I’m going to assume that you didn’t actually mean to accuse me, but rather were just asking me a question because you are a reasonable person who wants to have a peaceful discussion rather than a judgmental slap fest.
So….to your questions (in a different order because I’m limited in my characters here):
Would I donate money to help teens that identify as LGBTQ…? a) I don’t see how this falls under the “civic duty” category, but b) no, I probably would not donate money to that cause, not because I’m pro-tossing kids because of their sexuality, but because I’d rather do something more personal.
Do I want to protect the rights of LGBTQ Americans? Yes. I want to protect their right to free speech, freedom of religion, their right to bear arms, and all the other rights enumerated by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The “right” to marriage is nowhere in the Constitution, no matter what letter you attach to yourself.
Do I support LGBTQ folks to have the same tax breaks as all other Americans? Would I vote for their equality? I’m assuming that you’re speaking in the context of “marriage” here. Personally, I see marriage a symbol of Christ and His church. If I weren’t a believer, I’m not sure that I would see the need for marriage – except as it affects taxes, etc. I personally don’t care whether or not the state recognizes my marriage, as long as it is in accordance with my understanding of Scripture. So, I personally would be ok with the separation of civil unions as recognized by the state, and marriages as recognized by the church (and there are churches out there who would be happy to recognize marriages between same-sex couples). It’s what they do in the Netherlands. It seems to me that it would solve a whole lot of problems pretty easily – as long as the state then stayed out of the church and didn’t apply anti-discrimination legislation against churches who refused facilities or staff to marry couples that weren’t in accordance with their understanding of Scripture. Unfortunately, this has already happened (with some caveats) to a church in NJ, so it’s not hard to justify fearing this eventuality.
The problem with this comes when you consider States’ vs. Federal rights. The Constitution states that any rights not enumerated explicitly in the Constitution are relegated to the States. So it’s all well and good if Hawaii decides to do what I suggested above, but if some other state decides against doing the above, then does the Federal government have the authority to force Hawaii’s legislation on the state that didn’t want it? The Constitution says no.
This isn’t simply “I hate gays, just like Jesus” vs. “I love gays, just like Jesus.”
dd says:
Melissa,
Sorry if you thought that I was condescending or something. I was trying to be thought provoking. I am glad that you have found places to help others. Can I ask that you just pray for the homeless LGBTQ teens for the next month in your prayer time. Would you pray that they find a safe place to sleep and also peace in their hearts, for those that rejected them?
I also think we are on the same page, or close, about marriage. The government should not be issuing marriage licences, but something like a civil union to everyone. Let the church have marriage, keep the two mutually exclusive.
The only problem that I still have to work out is private buisness. Ie, a photographer not wanting to take pictures at a same sex wedding. I think we all need to learn from Peter and just leave and brush our feet of when we are not wanted. But then, is it ok for a business not want to take pictures of a mixed couple wedding, or a black wedding. Just things to ponder. I do not have the answer. I feel churches should always keep their right to marry whom they want without fear. Do you know if a church can deny an interracial couple from getting married? It was real common not that long ago. I live in a very culturally diverse area, so I don’t know if it still happens.
Anyway, sorry if you took my first post in a negative light.
Melissa Jones says:
I know that pastors at my church have refused to marry people who were previously divorced or who lived together (immediately) prior to marriage. They weren’t sued in those instances, but I don’t know if they _could_ have been.
There _is_ a church in NJ (Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, Ocean Grove, NJ) that was sued by a same-sex couple for discrimination when the church denied them the use of their outdoor pavilion for their civil union ceremony. The couple ultimately won their suit. There are tax details involved (the church had an agreement with the state which apparently opened them up to anti-discrimination laws), but the judge still felt it necessary to state in his decision that sometimes the freedom of religion should be second to social concerns, which tells me that his decision wasn’t based solely on tax law.
In your business example….except for an excuse to sue, I just don’t see why anyone would _want_ to hire a photographer that thought badly of them. Just like I don’t understand why someone would _want_ to be married by a pastor that didn’t approve of their union or in a facility owned by a group that doesn’t approve of their union……except as an excuse to sue. (This has happened at universities too where it’s seen as “discriminatory” to state that the leadership of a Christian campus organization have to sign a statement of faith. Why would someone who wouldn’t sign a statement of faith want to be a leader in that organization….except as an excuse to sue them?)
I think it’s different to some extent from the civil rights fights of the previous generations though because that was saying ‘you’re not worthy of service because I think you’re inferior to me.’ This is saying, ‘I don’t want to condone your behavior because I think it’s wrong.’ There are limited instances where serving a customer could be seen as condoning behavior – specifically, as it regards providing services to a union/marriage ceremony. Where does freedom of religion end in the public sector? And what exactly comprises the public sector?
But you’re right….there’s no good (and certainly no easy) answer to that one or the States rights issue I mentioned.
Thanks for continuing the conversation!
Bethany says:
Ok, wait… if you’re referring to what I think you’re referring to, “hiding in the basement” is totally off base… quotation marks indicate a direct quote, and I think you may have misunderstood what that was all about.
There is A LOT going on in the basement! Here are the details.
http://jenhatmaker.com/blog/2012/07/27/in-the-basement
Melissa Jones says:
Yep, Jen’s post is what I was referring to, and maybe my objection is more to the analogy than it is the intent behind her analogy. I think it’s naive to say that we can just let the battle rage on above us until it plays itself out, then come back up when it’s over. That assumes that the world will be exactly the same as you left it….which is very rare in the case of a storm that requires you to hide in a basement.
I appreciated her idea of inviting others in with us – seeing it as a safe and loving place…..but I disagree that we should leave the conversation to the two extremes (and I can see no other meaning to her reference of a “storm” than the political/cultural fighting over this issue, a fight which is predominantly between the two extremes). Apparently this is a paraphrase of an Edmund Burke quotation, not an exact quote, but the same idea as “all that’s necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.” That’s what “hiding in the basement” while the storm blows over seems like to me – good men doing nothing while evil (on both sides) runs rampant.
We as believers need to be _part_ of the conversation. We need to be “ministers of reconciliation” which we can’t do if we’ve removed ourselves from the conflict, storm or not.
Maybe I just disagree with her analogy, but ultimately we’re saying the same thing. All I can say is that I disagree with the idea of believers staying out of the conversation.
diane loewen says:
Thanks Shaun for the words to the perspective many of us have.
Julie Reid says:
One child every 11 seconds dies from starvation. 156 Million orphans will lay their heads down in some form of an institution or home without a parent tonight, and the best the church could do to give a voice and face to Christianity last week was eat at Chick-Fil-A? Really?
Melissa says:
^^this is what I thought all week!
Liz says:
Amen, Julie!
dd says:
Great post Julie.
Have you ever considered that God may have put gay people on this earth to take care of the children that straight people discard?
I see a bunch of people picketing a womans clinic during November every year when going to work. I bet that not one of them knows the name of a child in the foster care system. Yes, I am against abortion, but I will spend my time loving a living child that the rest of society has discarded.
Amy says:
Thank you for what you do, dd.
Alex Green says:
DD
I think you are in danger of painting straight people in a very negative light, unintentionally or otherwise.
Lets not forget that there are many, many straight people / couples / families that ” take care of the children that (other) straight people discard”.
I’m sure its not the case but you have in two comments sounded like you are insinuating that it’s only gay people that foster / adopt.
That’s rather dodgy ground!
Elizabeth says:
Julie, I have thought the same thing. If only those people would band together over something really important. Oh the lives they could change!
Steve says:
I get the point you’re trying to make, but you’re creating a false dichotomy here that doesn’t really exist. The truth is there are millions of Christians around the world who are giving huge amounts of time and money to care for impoverished children around the world every single day.
The issue can’t be separated into “supporting Chick-fil-a” vs. “caring for poor children”.
Melissa says:
Thank you for saying what is in my heart so eloquently, Shaun. My issue this week has been as simple as the bracelet I wore in the 90’s…What would Jesus do? I honestly believe He would not have allowed himself to be distracted by protecting free speech and taking a stand against same sex marriage. I don’t find anything in the Bible that suggests He would have spent His time in a line at CFA, standing up for anything. He would have gone on doing what He came to do..His Father’s business. Loving people, healing people, leading people to salvation. Jesus is who I want to emulate and the only One worth taking a stand for.
Susan says:
A fellow brother in Christ was vilified for speaking biblical truth. I just wanted to come alongside and support him.
Not yell at anyone else.
Just love on him, the way Christ calls me to.
Linda says:
Right up front, I’ll admit I didn’t read all the threads…my life is crazy busy right now. I did go to Chik fil-A on Aug 1st. Honestly it was more that I just felt sorry for the owner, Dan Cathy. I can only imagine the beating he’s taken. I have several gay & lesbian friends. I’ve never held a picket sign against anything. I smiled when I saw the long line I waited in at the drive thru…not because of an attitude of “take that homosexuals” or anything even close. I more just wanted him to be encouraged & thought the guy must be. Had I seen anyone with a picket sign or slurs against the gay community at the Chik fil-A I went to it would have been a total turn off for me… and I would have left. I took pics & later decided to not post them because it would have been insensitive to gays & lesbians.
dd says:
Linda, You made a very good choice to not post the pictures, I was very offended by the pictures that were posted. So at the time decided that I did not need friends like that in my life, and wrote to them how I felt. I got the “love the sinner, not ths Sin and the Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve tag lines in return, so the friendships are now over. I found out that they were never a friend in the first place. God made Adam and eve and gay people and everything. And why is it that only gay comes with the sinner clause? Why don’t they say the same about obese people, gossipers, etc? The most powerful leader in the evangelical world today is obese, yet Christians don’t say that to him. Yes Rick W., I talking about you.
Linda says:
DD, kinda funny you mentioned obesity cuz well…ummm…yeah, I’m fat! 🙂 And not offended at all by the example. Sorry about the one-liners you got. I’d rather get to know a person over a cup of coffee, tea, or what have you & discuss things that way. I know a bit about both sides of the issue on sexuality as I was a lesbian who became heterosexual. It wasn’t programmed out of me through any organization, etc. I was at a small get together in a park several years back with folks from my church. An elder of the church, a good friend of mine, had mentioned that the one thing he didn’t think he could handle was a homosexual coming to church. He had no idea of my past as I had not yet told him I think what drives me the craziest is the building of walls I see instead of bridges. We may disagree on many aspects of the issue but I don’t like walls and I sincerely hope I’ve said nothing to offend you & I hope you would tell me if I did so I can learn from it. I would really enjoy talking with you more & learning more about you. Do you have any pets? I’m a crazy animal lover. I have 3 cats and 1 dog…. love ’em to death!…such a gift from God. One of my cats is in lock down cuz he sprayed (he is neutered) the neighbors kiddie pool. I went over and cleaned it for them this morning. Don’t know what to do about the cat. He loves going outside but I cannot have him spraying the neighbors stuff!!
Amy says:
Naughty cat. Lol! My cat goes outside, but he never potties out there. He will come IN to use the box. He also only goes in the backyard. Weird kitty!
Ashley says:
dd, you’re right. Homosexuality isn’t the only sin. Gluttony, gossiping, etc. are sins as well and should be acknowledged as such.
I don’t necessarily support all that Rick Warren says, but he did acknowledge that being so overweight was wrong and lost weight and encouraged his congregation to do the same.
There are, however, plenty of other pastors who are obese and think it’s fine to continue that way while wagging their finger at, for instance, homosexuals.
The glutton and the homosexual both need to lean on Christ.
dd says:
Linda,
You seem like a wonderful person. And building bridges is the only way to save anyone. Walls only divide. I have never seen anyone come to Christ by putting them down, and I see a whole lot of people that have been told so much that they are sinners, that they want nothing to do with God. My faith has been shaken by this and if I was not strong in my belief, I would have been like most of the other people that I know. Christians need to understand that we need to love people into heaven and stop trying the alienate them. Let God do the rest. Either God will change them, or he won’t. In my case, he didn’t and I now realize that it is not my purpose in life to change. Charlie Peacock sand a song that said “If it is human that he wants, human is what he will get from me”. God wants us to be ourselves and not live someone else’s life.
Linda says:
Yes, Amy…I’ve had the same problem… come in to use the litter box. This one cat that sprays… I just don’t know what I’m gonna do. He loves to go outside but spraying the neighbor’s kiddie pool? Really? Did he mistake it for a kitty pool?? 🙂
Jim says:
Too many folks these days are creating their own gospel. It boils down to people trying to be their own savior. It comes down to people giving in to their own desires vs. God’s desire for their life. His desire for you to rely on him for strength and not on yourself. Do you think that by continuing to sin, whether that be lying, getting angry, getting impatient, acting on lust, idolizing, etc…. you are relying on God? You are supposed to be relying on God to help you NOT do those things because those things become your replacement for God. All of the sudden Christians are being told to tolerate sin (any sin) in the name of Love. We should be intolerant of sin in the name of Love. Sin is giving in to one’s desire to put themselves in God’s chair. We should all obviously look at our own sin first and foremost, but that does not mean that we should be tolerant of sin in other people’s life. I’m sorry if the Gay and Lesbian “community” feels hate from Christians. We as Christians aren’t to hate anyone, but remember the rich young ruler that turned away from Jesus. He was “sad” when he heard what he’d have to sacrifice to follow Jesus. We are all saddened to find out what we have to give up to follow Christ, but if you aren’t willing to give that sin up, whatever it is, then are you really that interested in following Jesus?
dd says:
Jesus never said it was a sin. I pick up my cross daily and follow him. God is not in the business of changing ones sexual orientation. He knows I have prayed endless for that. He also said that it is not good for man to be alone…. Remember Genesis. So after years of trying to follow what the world told me was the right way, even being a Christian DJ, getting married, mission trips, endless Bible studies, giving to the church, etc, etc, and having everything I really wanted, I was still living a lie. It was not fair to my wife, myself, or even God. I loved my wife but hated my life. It was to the point of ending it or accepting it. I know that He has called to to a greater good.
Please remember that not all Christian religions believe it is a sin. So this is really your Biblical interpretation, so you should really define it as such ‘Southern Baptist interpretation believe’ etc, since Episcopals are very ok with same sex marriage. Saying that Christians believe that…… is not really the truth and lumping all Christians into the same bucket, even if they disagree with you.
Joel says:
Jesus came to fulfill the whole Law. He said that not on punctuation mark to the Law was changed by His coming. The Law states very clearly that it is a sin. IN addition, the New Testament clearly says it is as well. If you want to worship a God of your own creation, one that you have built by deleting scripture, you are not actually worship the God of the Bible or Jesus for that matter.
I am NOT saying that this particular sin is worse than any other, but it is a sin and must therefore be repented of and eliminated from our lives.
dd says:
Joel,
That is your interpretation of the Bible and your Jesus. Research the original text. So divorce is a sin and then to re-marry is then living in sin… Why is that so accepted in the church? Taks care of your own house.
Zoë says:
I don’t know anything about Chick-Fil-A. We don’t have them in the UK. I find American politics/media/news rather baffling. Hasn’t there recently been a terrible massacre of Sikhs in their temple? Has the outcry against violence and persecution of minorities been as vehement as it sounds like this Chick-Fil-A issue has been?
God bless you, Shaun. Thank you for your thoughtful, considered posts. That’s why I keep reading 🙂
Thomas says:
I believe that there is so much anger and hatred in this country right now. When you combine this anger and hatred with a belief that a person’s life is worthless, it is not surprising there is so much killing here in America. The hospital that the wounded from the Sikhs shooting were sent to said in an interview it is common to treat multiple shooting victims at one time.
Joel says:
I am dubious about any political act taken by a Christian in that, if we are to be accessible to ALL the world, we can’t simply ignore half of it (politically speaking) and in this current cultural environment, being opposed politically is certainly taken as a personal attack (wrong as that might be).
HOWEVER…(and i think i am reacting to some of the sentiments in the responses more than to the post itself at times, admittedly)
I agree (on a limited basis) this is not necessarily accurate to state that the reason a person is suffering is due to their sin (small s). Although some sinful behavior leads to suffering of a sort, it is impossible to tell whether the fact that it was a sin that “caused” the suffering. On the other hand, ALL suffering is a result of Sin (big s). The reason folks believe that suffering a result of small “s” sins, is primarily because of some scriptures (such as “they received the due penalty in their bodies” and as for nations that rejected God’s Law, there a many examples in the Bible) that hint at that being the case. Who knows? God. Remember, He isn’t simply a God of “love” (there ARE several pagan gods of that stripe), He also is a God of wrath. The God of the Old Testament is still the God of the New and those under the Law (not saved by Grace) will still have to deal with that part of God’s character in the end.
It is a fine line to walk: being loving to an unregenerate sinner without leading them to believe you support their sin. I would be concerned about leading them down the wrong path. Christians get saved by grace and then we are changed by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. No sin and no idol are immune from this work. God is relentless in His work to make us more like Jesus. Whether it is sexual sin or any other, He will not permit the Christian to continue behaving in a way that is against His Law. That is not to say salvation is at risk, but God is not about compromising His holiness and He is absolutely sovereign so He has a very large toolkit for the eradication of sin.
It needs to be crystal clear, unless you are trying to trick someone into the Kingdom – something that simply canot be done in any case – that the sins we commit before we are saved, while they are certainly forgiven, will be eliminated by that sanctifying work. If you tell a practicing homosexual that they are loved by God, which is true, and imply that their behavior can continue post salvation, you are lying to them and that is most unkind. Of course, God’s grace will take care of this for them if and when they are saved.
The problem is, how do you make this clear when their very identity, as far as they are concerned, rests in the performance of an act that is categorically a sin? Or are you going to tell me that what the Bible calls a sin is not one? I guess you just serve whomsoever comes and leave it to God to handle the rest. But please refrain from compromising any further than God would.
Alex says:
I’ve listened to all the perspectives here and I think the issue is the same as it always has been. Gays think its hateful when believers interpret scripture to say homosexuality is sin. I really do think its that simple. DD, you feel hate because your lifestyle is called wrong by many Christians. You try to enlist support by mentioning all the good things you do, loving the unwanted children and such. Loving others is a good thing, but you probably feel homosexuality is not a sin, right? If you did think it was, you probably wouldn’t have been so offended and hurt by the whole CFA thing.
dd says:
I do not feel that the way God created me as a sin. Sorry if you feel different. I use to believe what man told me in religious churches and church dogma. If gay is a sin, then you are saying that God messed up or intentionally made me to go to hell when I was created. I have a concern over that type of God. How about letting God judge me and I will let him judge you. Don’t define me by my sin and I won’t define you by yours, Simple. Many, many Christians feel that it is not a sin, go research in the original text. Your comments are the type that drive gay people away from God and gay children to commit suicide. Most gay people want to believevin God but have been pushed out of the nest, not by God, but by his children. Alex, I know that I will be going to heaven, I hope to see you there so we can discuss it more.
Joel says:
the concept that God created a being that is naturally incapable of reproduction, which was His primary call to all created things from the beginning, is utterly false and simply based on a deception.
just because the culture says it doesn’t make it true. the Bible as written in plain language is the final arbiter.
Ashley says:
dd:
1st, I think you define yourself by your sin when you talk about being a homosexual. From what I hear, it seems that a lot of the members of the LGBT community define themselves by their sexual orientation. Actually I do think that that’s an odd thing for Christians to identify themselves by, but this also makes it clear why you would take such offense at being criticized for it. If I defined myself by my sin and then I was criticized, it would be hard to take and I would likely react strongly. However, when we ask Christ to be our Savior, we turn to Him and TO THE CHURCH for support in overcoming our sin and our identity comes from being God’s child.
dd, it’s HARD. Sometimes the struggle is so hard–knowing how sinful I am and being aware of how short I am falling–that I want to just sit down and cry. That’s the beauty of God’s love though. THAT’S when you lean on Him because when you give yourself to Him (become a Christian), you say that indulging your own fleshly desires is no longer the aim of your life.
I agree with another user–if you’re taking care of discarded children, that’s wonderful. But. That’s not relevant to the fact that practicing homosexuality is wrong.
I know that too many in the Church deal with homosexuality badly. Somehow it’s judged more than other sins, even when there is a repentant Christian looking for support. That’s why we pray though. That’s why it doesn’t matter what building you go to–you’re part of the Church and you have believers to pray with you, who know what it’s like to struggle with sin.
If you are claiming to be a Christian but refusing to acknowledge your sin or to ask God’s help to overcome it, I am called to judge you, as a sister in Christ. People within the Church are supposed to be FIGHTING sin, not indulging in it.
My friend who struggles with alcoholism or lust or promiscuity doesn’t say, “God made me this way, so He either made a mistake or He wants me to go to Hell”. No. He wants you to rely on Him. He wants you to acknowledge that He is the Creator and that you are the created and that His grace is sufficient for you. Look that verse up (2 Corinthians 12:9)–Paul struggled too. But he said that God’s grace was sufficient and it is.
Christian homosexuals who get driven away from church because they don’t like to hear that they can’t continue in their sin are no different from adulterers or alcoholics or gluttons or any other sinner who does the same.
dd, maybe you were made this way by God–I don’t know. Remember the blind man who was healed by Jesus though? He was born that way so that God could be glorified. Wouldn’t you love to be a part of God’s glory and His plans?
I encourage you to turn around and stop fighting your fellow Christians and start fighting Satan. Our strength is not in ourselves, it’s in God.
dd says:
Alex, you are pulling that nonsense from where? I am very glad you are not God!
Thomas says:
Last week I stated that the winner of this Chick-fil-A issue were those who claim that there is no God and that all Christians are phony liars. I know that this might sound cold and unloving, but I think the actions on both sides of the issue were wrong. I felt both sides at times wanted to be offended by the actions of those on the other side of the issue.
It saddens me when I saw pictures of Christians who felt the need to post their pictures of them eating at CFA all over the internet. I could not help but think they were saying “up yours” to those in the LGBTQ community. It also saddens me that members of the LGBTQ felt the need to belittle and insult those who were working at a CFA event though they had no say in this issue.
Until both sides sit down and admit that WE all are sinners and the WE all need grace, mercy and forgiveness there probably will not be peace in regards to this issue.
Thomas
mj says:
In the beginning, for the first approx 9weeks of development, the embryo is gender neutral. I was going to include references, but people can google this information to find what information suits them, there are lots of sources.
Was it C.S.Lewis who said “I have a body, I am not a body, I am a soul”, or something close to that.
Could we all, especially could christians, choose to see people as the soul/spirit that they are, not simply the body. Scientifically, each of us contains, at our genesis of our physical selves, the traits of both male and female. Why can’t we just love each other for the beautiful, mysterious creation, soul, that we are? We are asked to leave the judgement to God. I don’t want to be part of hate, there is too much hate in the world, and tragically christians are often leading the parade of hate. Episcopalians have taken a lot of heat for trying to love all people, maybe they are a denomination that actually has it right: live like Jesus, LOVE thy neighbor.
Joel says:
how can you call standing by while others go to hell “love”? In order to be saved one must repent of sin so if you do not encourage them to do so (tantamount to rejecting their behavior and, to them, their identity) you are effectively preventing them from doing so.
dd says:
Joel, It is called unconditional love. The one that Jesus has, but his children don’t understand. WWJD? I think, He would be very angry at those that use the word love to show hate.
Joel says:
Quite to the contrary, God’s love is NOT unconditional. He certainly will not compromise His standards in any way. If you want to characterize God’s love with relation to conditions it is contra-conditional.
As a Christian we are not just saved by grace and moved from the kingdom of darkness, but we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds into something other than we were. We are not to remain the same and continue in sin…and sex outside of Biblical man/woman marriage OF ANY KIND is sin.
dd says:
Joel,
Have a wonderful life. I am tranformed, a new person. A much better person than before. God is workin gin my life and through my life. But you do not understand love, and for that I pitty you. I will pray that your heart becomes open to love. I will not repond to your hate any more.
Christine says:
Joel, I agree with what you are saying, but Christians remain in sin all the time. When was the last time you looked at a pretty women in tight clothes, not your wife, and thought something sexual? When was the last time you judged, spoke harshly, weren’t patient and kind, held a grudge? Do you see what I’m saying? We can barely go an hour without some type of sin, whether it be in thought or action.
I agree the Bible is clear that sex condoned by God is between a married man and women, but it also says that even looking lustfully at someone who is not your wife, is also sexual sin. So if we think it our duty to give homosexuals the biblical riot act about their sexual sin, let’s give the same riot act to every sexual sinner. You’d never run out of people to speak to. Ever. Until the day you see Christ.
I think Christ would have us pray purity for everyone we know, including ourselves.
If we argue that practicing homosexuals are “continuing in their sin” and that’s the problem for them as Christians (making them not really Christian) we have a whole lot of answering to do for all the sins we continue in. Don’t we?
Seems easier just to pray purity for everyone we know.
Kevin says:
We are all sinners in need of a Savior. What I like about this issue is that it brings into the light the need for all of us to repent of our sins. What I don’t like about this issue are the people who think buying chicken is somehow a “good work.” That’s not the Gospel, and that’s not biblical. Thanks Shaun for your post, very thoughtful. You are spot-on with your observation that “there is no shortcut to righteousness.” Amen.
Kit says:
This was a time when it was really nice to live where I do. I couldn’t have gone to Chick-fil-a that day if I’d wanted to, we don’t have one here. So, I could happily ignore the hoopla without looking like I was ignoring the hoopla 😉
shayne says:
Thanks for carefully and prayerfully responding when you didn’t have to.
I personally was glad to read a blog that wasn’t responding to all the hoo-ha. I vote that we readers agree that this is Shaun’s place and we don’t need to be trying to convince him into (insert airquotes) taking a stand (end airquotes) about anything. He can write about whatever he chooses to write about and shouldn’t have to be answering e-mails or anything else about why he is or isn’t posting about a certain issue. He’s got bigger fish to fry…like helping kids get sponsors.
Don’t get me wrong…I love America and I love waffle fries…but this is getting really, really old. People keep throwing up the Constitution and what I’m finding is that people on all sides of the issue are identifying first as either American, or Republican, or Democrat, or even LGBT.
Shouldn’t we first and foremost be finding our identity in Christ?
Shaun Groves says:
Thanks for keeping the conversation kind, all. Staying out of it myself. But grateful, as I read along, that the responses so far are respectful.
That’s just not true elsewhere. Thanks, guys.
mj says:
Shaun, I really appreciate your courage in providing a forum for this topic where we can learn and hopefully grow together in christian love. You may want to look into and learn about “Welcoming Congregations.” I am no expert, but my understanding is that churches from many denominations have joined together to acknowledge and welcome all of God’s people to worship and grow closer to His love. God is love, right?
dd says:
Shaun,
I have said my peace here on the post, I hope you do not mind. I hope that we can sit down and talk sometime. It would be a my pleasure to tell my life story.
I know you are a big an of CFA sweet tea, and I have no problems with anyone going there to eat, I just won’t. Please forgive me if I said anything that you felt inappropriate on this blog. I do like to be though provoking and hope that just maybe someone is brought a bit closer to God but pondering the things I have said in the light of the Bible.
You probably know a few people in the CCM business that are probably gay. Some have even come out and been ostracized by the people that once loved them. If it was as simple as saying a prayer and it all going away, we would be having a totally different conversation.
Love you brother,
DD
Believer says:
I would just like to say, that I do not believe in the equality of same sex. Simply because the Bible says it is an abomination. And God did destroy a couple of cities due to the unnatural act. Yes I am a Christian, no I’m not perfect by any means, but I do go to Church and work hard every day to change and eliminate the stains in my life and to better myself. Now onto the point of unnatural. Marriage is God’s design, it ALWAYS says between MAN and WOMAN in the Bible. ALSO, he created woman to be a companion to man so that they can be fruitful and multiply. Which brings me to this, there is a reason men have the parts that they have, and women have the parts that they have, so when put together, it fits like two puzzle pieces without any synthetic manmade products. Which makes relationship between man and woman natural and “God Given” and “God Made”. If someone wants to be of the same sex, well, that is your decision, and thankfully I don’t have to answer for anyone but myself. So if it’s a sin, I don’t see why keep doing it when you know it’s wrong. We are supposed to work to get those stains out of our lives, heart and soul and not displease God, we aren’t supposed to keep doing it.
Christine says:
Yes, this is all in the Bible. But given that Shaun probably has more than a few gay readers, is this the most sensitive thing to say at this point? I don’t think so and this is why.
Let’s assume that gay people feel sexually differently from their earliest memories. We cannot know if this is true or not, so let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. Most of them say this is true.
So, what are we asking of them, then? They have two choices, right? Get married and keep your sexual feelings a secret from your heterosexual spouse for the rest of your life–and from all others as well.
Or, live alone for the rest of your life, never having affection. To do one or the other of these things must be extremely hard. Harder than any of us could fathom. On top of that, people go around saying you are an abomination and hating you. Christians claim you couldn’t be a real Christian, and live the way you do.
What I’d rather we do as Christians is to understand that gay people have a great, unimaginable burden on them, if they are a Christian. We should pray that God is enough for them, so that they can live in one of the two ways I stated above. How many of us could do the same, perfectly? I don’t know. We all have burdens, yes, but we aren’t asked to live with a heartwrenching secret for the rest of our lives.
God should be enough for all of us. We should all stay close enough to Him, to really feel that. Pray that your gay acquaintances become free of this incredible burden. Pray that God will be enough.
And if your gay acquaintances can’t do it, love them anyway. Know that you could never understand what they endure, and keep praying. Keep loving, knowing you might not do any better, if you were in their shoes.
Believer says:
I am by no means jumping down anyone’s throat or being insensitive or whatever. I’m just stating facts. Yes, God is love. BUT God also has standards, which are yes stated in the Bible. Unlike humans, he does not change his mind, EVER. He IS and always will BE. Everything he has decreed, even from Old Testament is still the same. Nothing changes with him. He may be love, but he still has Commandments to follow. This is why Christ has no earthly father, so he can be free of sin, because let’s just say it, mankind is corrupt in all ways. We have to be saved by God’s grace and follow his commandments, mankind does not save us. Just because society accepts things and cultures accepts things does not mean it’s right. That goes with everything in the world. But as a TRUE Christian, we are supposed to work every day to remove any sins from our lives and work to better ourselves and completely follow God and realize he does not change his designs of anything, no matter how much we may want him to or how we feel or how we love anything. In the end it’s His will, and HIS way, and we all have to answer for everything that we do. I’ve said my feelings, if it hurts anyone then I’m sorry, not mean to, but it is what it is.
Christine says:
I am not saying that God has changed. That his law has changed. Just hoping for a compassionate spirit.
Believer says:
His laws never change, they are always the same.
Christine says:
I am sorry you misunderstood. I agreed that his law never changes.
Linda says:
Hey, once again all.. I posted b4. And, again, have not had a chance to read all the threads as I am crazy busy… so my apologies as I’m jumping in as I have time & may have a fragmented idea of what’s happened since I last got on.
I thought back to my own conversion experience. You know what drew me?.. other than the Holy Spirit of course. His unconditional love… not His standards. Are the standards there? Absolutely! But did those standards make me want God? Absolutely not! I knew I could never – and still can not – get rid of the awful filth – the stain – in my life so I concluded I should go to hell. I did not deserve God. But then the shocker… God loved me unconditionally. The ONLY ONE who had the right to condemn me chose not to. It is His love that causes us to desire His holiness. Can I get there on my own? Oh, my ego would like to think so… handouts are hard on my pride. I can cooperate with Him but the transformation is up to Him. I can do behavior management… but that doesn’t really change my heart… did that one for years.. read the bible, study, pray, fellowship.. not bad in and of themselves but not where transformation comes from.. hopefully, if I’m not doing those things from a heart of pride, it will be more in the form of submission (laying face up in my pile of garbage & saying “God, if You don’t help me I’m sunk..”).
I’ve thought about a scripture the last few days… the one in Matthew 7 where Jesus tells us to get the log out of our own eye before offering to take the speck out of our brother’s eye. I wondered… why do I have the log & the other person the speck? Why can’t we both have specks & when I get mine out I help you with yours. I’m still chewing on it.. but the context is about judging. That’s what causes me to have the log & blinds me. Now, not saying we should never judge. But there is good judging and bad judging. We can judge that it’s not a good thing for a person to run a stop sign, for example. Where we get into trouble is when we assign more to that situation than we could possibly know by watching their life from a distance (they must be texting). Or we could judge a person’s house to be really messy…. that’s an accurate judgement if it really is messy. But when we take the next step and say it’s because they’re lazy, that’s when a log starts to form in our eye… because, unless we get to know the person, we just don’t know. Maybe they’re sick, maybe they’re overwhelmed. Lot’s of maybe’s that only God knows unless we get involved in the messiness of their lives.
A couple things here: When I see someone in a situation am I willing to help (messy house) the Pharisees wanted to just dump on more burdens, am I willing to let God be God & not evaluate beyond what I could possibly know, and am I willing to look at any situation & say “but for the grace of God that could be me.” If I can, then I think I’m closer to getting the log out of my eye.
Shaun Groves says:
Also, an important aspect of understanding Matthew 7 is defining that word “judge” properly. That word is not just to call something “bad” but to punish because of it.
To use your stop sign example? To say it was wrong to run the stop sign isn’t judging. To call them names, to refuse to talk to them at church the next day, to post their license plate on-line for all to see, to bully them on Facebook, to launch a hate blog against them, to pull them over yourself and lock them up in the little jail you’ve made of your basement? That’s judging.
Linda says:
Shaun, we’re in agreement. I also thought of the homeless as an example. When I decide that they are in their situation because they’re lazy, or taking advantage of generous people, or wanting money to get drunk or high, etc, then I’ve taken my assumptions to a level that God never wanted me to go to. And, even if I find out that any or all of those things are true with any given homeless person I still need to consider that perhaps something really traumatic happened in their life (I mean, does anyone really think when they’re a little kid “I’m gonna be homeless when I grow up”). There is only One who knows the entire story – The Merciful Judge. That’s why we are instructed to make a righteous judgement (John 7:24). Twice Jesus talks to the religious of His day about God’s desire for mercy more than sacrifice (Mt. 9:13 & 12:7). There’s a bit of Pharisee in us all. DD said that he/she prayed that God would take away the homosexuality. I have no reason to not believe this. But, now we’ve got a dilemma that makes us uncomfortable. We have some choices at this point. We can either go back to our comfort zone of doctrine & quoting scripture or giving advice or deciding we know why God has not turned DD into a heterosexual & make some assumptions there (DD didn’t really want to change, wasn’t really serious, didn’t pray right, didn’t quote the right scriptures, should have gone to the elders for the laying on of hands, should have been anointed with oil, has a demon that needs to be cast out, needs inner healing, etc.). Or we can do something that’s messier but will get us to a deeper place with God & others (what it’s all about, right?… love God & love others). We can wrestle. We can actually get to know DD the person, spend some time with him, talk with him, listen to him, even disagree. See.. even disagreeing is different from the place of relationship. It’s messier, more vulnerable, risky, and stretches us… but it’s so much more rewarding.
Linda says:
Ahhh… Shaun I get it!… missed it the first go around. Yes… I can say it’s wrong to run a stop sign. I guess what I was saying was similar in that we don’t know why. Maybe somebody was rushing their sick wife to the hospital. We would feel really differently about that situation than if we knew someone was high.. but even there, it doesn’t give us the right to treat them as sub-human.
David Quinn says:
This is so good. I’ve been waiting for someone to speak differently about this whole thing in a way that re-focuses us on the message of Jesus. Thank you.
Alex Green says:
“Indeed, a quick glance around this broken world makes it painfully obvious that we don’t need more arguments on behalf of God; we need more people who live as if they are in covenant with Unconditional Love, which is our best definition of God.”
Robin R. Meyers, from ‘Saving Jesus from the Church’
Andrea says:
I am surprised that people would be pestering you for a response to the brouhaha. I don’t know you personally, but have read your blog enough to feel pretty confident that this is not something you would have rallied a battle cry for. I visited CFA on the 1st, but not to take any kind of “stand”. I simply wanted to show love to a group of people who had been enduring much vitriol and false accusation. None of us want to face the (expected) hatred of the world alone. The tears in the eyes of the manager who cleared our table and thanked us for our support was all the evidence I needed to know I was in the right place.