People routinely come to my site by searching “shaun groves denomination” or “shaun groves beliefs” or, yesterday, “Is shaun groves calvinist?”
I’m a theological mutt. I grew up in the Texas wing of the Southern Baptist denomination, worked for the Methodists while in college at Baylor (a Baptist-ish school), and have sung and spoken in a church of just about every denomination over the last eleven years. My bookshelf is a diverse neighborhood of Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Mennonites, mystics and theologians, Americans, Germans, Africans, Canadians, South Americans and Asians, modern and ancient.
I guess I’ve never really plainly answered the question “What are you?” because, first of all, I don’t know the answer and, secondly, I don’t think it matters all that much. Which means I’m probably more Anabaptist than anything.
These words are transcribed from a recent sermon by Bruxy Cavey, an Anabaptist pastor at The Meeting House in Canada.
(It’s downright normal to be an Anabaptist in Canada, by the way. Have you even met one in America? But that’s another post…)
As Anabaptists we tend toward biblical theology rather than systematic theology. In biblical theology we tend to read scripture and mine it for implication and then go and live what it says. We ask, “What is the bible saying on this matter?” Systematic theology is rooted in the bible, absolutely. It takes all the biblical data and constructs a system of thought on a particular topic that is rooted in scripture, but then once that system is built [the believer] goes back to scripture and reads it through that filter.
Now you can see the danger and advantage. [Systematic theology] creates a clear-headedness so that when you read scripture you can fit things together and see things perhaps you’ve never seen before. But what if when building that original structure you made some mistakes. Now you’ve built a filter that’s flawed and every time you read scripture [through it] you will reinforce flawed beliefs.
So all of us need to be humble and say we believe that through the Bible God is speaking to us and theology is only our best intellectual human response to that.
…Anabaptists just don’t typically do systematic theology with the depth and rigor that Calvinists do, for example. One reason is that we look back over church history and realize that in those times when the Church was theologically the most rigorous [it was] also the most violent. Every time they held another meeting to make sure they nailed down orthodoxy was another time that persecution broke out against the people who didn’t embrace the orthodoxy. So you can understand then why historically Anabaptists are very skeptical of creeds – we’re a non-creedal group of people, because every time you fashion a creed it gives another excuse to kill people who won’t sign the creed.
And if you can’t even get the simplest, the plainest teaching of Jesus – like “don’t kill” – why should we trust you on matters that are far more complex?
Our first leaders within the Anabaptist movement were intellectuals, students of the first reformers. [As they studied the bible they said to the reformers] you’re not going far enough. They debated with their professors. A bunch of twenty-somethings who had courage and vision and were debating with their professors saying, “We need to take this further.” They identified themselves publicly, wrote, preached, debated and then they were all slaughtered.
That was our first layer of [Anabaptist] leadership. The next layer of leadership that had some education was slaughtered. And the next. And finally we were left with farmers and bakers who said, “How do we just follow Jesus? Because that’s all we can do.”
So the early leadership of the Anabaptists focussed on following Jesus. “Don’t kill. We’ll start with that and then we’ll branch out from there.”
If you’re a Calvinist you need to understand this about Anabaptists: Not only do we disagree with you. We disagree about the importance of the disagreement.
Yep. I’m mostly this.
brad says:
Very cool. My introduction to Anabaptists came via an off-shoot of the Eastern Mennonite church. The “big thought” that came to me through it all was the idea that I come to the scriptures submitted, already purposed in my heart to obey what I find there. Even if it makes me uncomfortable or I don’t particularly like the implications. Now I find myself once again in the midst of modern evangelicalism, so I love your conclusion. I think I would agree that, I too am “mostly this”.
Cathy says:
I guess I’m an Anabaptist too. I’ve never heard it put this way though. I grew up Baptist and went to a Baptist college in East Texas where the Calvinism debate became so heated that best of friends parted ways and never spoke again. Ridiculous.
“If you’re a Calvinist you need to understand this about Anabaptists: Not only do we disagree with you. We disagree about the importance of the disagreement.” Love, love, love this statement!
Shaun Groves says:
Well, there’s a lot more to Anabaptist thought than this but this is foundational at least. You might not want to commit yourself fully to wearing the label until you learn what they have to say about war, oaths, and church structure/leadership.Those might be the sticking points for many Americans ; )
brad says:
Hmm. Especially war and oaths. Leads me to conclusions that many would deem “un-American”. So, dare I ask if you are non-resistant? Or is that a subject for another post?
Shaun Groves says:
On a good day. Though I certainly have questions and reservations even on my best.
Cathy says:
Yeah, I think I’ll stick to the label “recovering Baptist”. Not sure it’s appropriate now that I’ve joined another Baptist church though. I just won’t say it out loud.
Krissy says:
I have learned so much from Bruxy Cavey–I listen to his sermons every week. The series that he did this summer on various denominations was excellent (I recommended it to a certain pastor we know). I love his approach.
Jessica says:
This isn’t going to be cute, and this isn’t going to be witty, but …
AMEN.
Jessica says:
Also, I can’t freaking wait to move to Canada!
(I’m allowed to say “freaking” around here?)
Shaun Groves says:
I prefer freakin’.
Aimee says:
Jessica… you’ll love Canada! 😉
BTW, you can listen to/watch all of Bruxy’s teachings online.
Matt says:
I grew up in an anabaptist church so I know where you are coming from
Aimee says:
Ah, Bruxy is one cool dude! He’s my pastor, that’s why! 🙂 Our family finally found our “home” in The Meeting House…. I guess we’ve been Anabaptists all along without even realizing it. Great post, Shaun!
Shaun Groves says:
Elias, the lead singer guy for The City Harmonic is part of The Meeting House as well. When he found out I listen to the podcast sometimes he was so impressed I ALMOST got a free CD. ; )
Jared says:
Shaun, I love you man. Love everything you say, but I gotta say here that I disagree. I am reformed and covenantal.
While I appreciate systematic theology, I prefer Biblical theology.
And I have to take issue with that last statement. I know that it is stereo typically true – many of my “brethren” think that our disagreements are in the realm of heresy – but I personally think that this sort of division is far more dangerous than anabaptist theology.
As I said, I know there are many in my camp that are loud and obnoxious, but I know that I speak for a large segment of reformed folks – let’s call us the silent majority.
Thanks for the post, but I felt the need to stand up for those of us reformed folks that prefer to follow Jesus on the path of love and reconciliation.
Shaun Groves says:
That’s great to hear, Jared. And needed to be said. Stereotypes are divisive and this could certainly come across as one. This quote came from a larger sermon that was part of a larger series on Calvinism. Out of context, separated from the many kind words Bruxy had for the reformed tradition, it sure could hurt. Wish I’d thought of that sooner.
Thanks for the clarification and so good to know you’re not “obnoxious.” ; )
Jared says:
oh don’t worry Shaun, didn’t hurt at all – I am way used to it, some of us are that way still. (stereotypes exist for a reason)
Shaun Groves says:
Jared, you make a great statement about purpose on your site:
“I am passionate about making the world better by applying the good news about the Kingdom of God to the broken places in our lives and the community around us.”
I love that. But do you get any pushback from other reformed folks about it? Specifically about the kingdom not being the Good News? I do. Just curious how you answer that because I’m obviously doing a terrible job of it.
Jared says:
No actually I don’t I never even thought about it.
I have always thought of the good news as being ABOUT the kingdom. In fact, many reformed folks I know seem to be realizing just how important that is. The very idea that Jesus is about making the world better is the very point of it being good news.
I do have to be careful with word choice sometimes, because many of us are looking for certain key words that are “heretical.” But no, most people get it.
Aadel says:
I have had huge Mennonite influences in my life and I tend towards an Anabaptist way of thinking about theology. Right now I call myself “Free Grace” theologically but that is evolving just as my walk with Christ is.
I enjoyed your post. ;0)
Shaun Groves says:
So what do you mean by “Free Grace?”
Aadel says:
It a movement within the American evangelical community that attempts to clarify the gospel. It states that our salvation along with our growing maturity is based in the work of Christ alone.
It goes against some of the reformed ideas of perseverance and the Lordship salvation (the idea that in order to be truly saved you must make Christ the Lord of your life). It says that Christ bought us, made us new, and gives us the power to live for him through faith alone- not out of our own works.
http://freegracealliance.com/articles.htm
Jared says:
Aadel, I realize I must be sounding less and less reformed, but either 1) I have mistaken reformed teaching somewhere 2) you need to say more about free grace or 3) that is exactly what the reformed teaching is.
I think the hubbub about Lordship Salvation is a semantic issue, better characterized by the word “fruit.” If you don’t have fruit then maybe you aren’t a christian after all. This can also be stated “Christ isn’t lord of your life.”
Perseverance of the saints is a TOTALLY Free grace doctrine – It is ONLY God’s Grace that Preserves and perseveres us.
I think so much of the silly and petty doctrinal arguments we have are a matter of semantics.
Except when it is as Shaun said before when we — “… believe things to affirm our culture than cut across it.” this is called pride.
Aadel says:
Jared-
I don’t think we are arguing semantics. When you say “no fruit- maybe you are not a Christian” -that is basing your standing in Christ upon your works. It becomes a measure of “am I really saved?”
How much fruit to we have to show? Should we wonder about our salvation if we aren’t sure if we’ve produced enough? How do we go about making Christ Lord of our life?
We see all the time in the New Testament that there were Christians- people who Paul called brothers and sisters in the faith- who didn’t show much fruit. Paul had to correct them and pray that they would return. It is possible for a Christian to be stagnant in their faith and not do much. Their justification is not called into question in the New Testament, only their maturity in Christ.
Like I said above- my theology is changing. Anyone that can say our salvation is based in Christ alone through faith alone I can agree with.
My sister and brother in law are reformed and we agree on the gospel message 100%. But there are reformed who describe perseverance as something you have to constantly “check yourself on” to make sure you didn’t miss the election boat. ;0) They often make their maturity in Christ into a list of “fruit” that proves how chosen they are. I know you are not saying that- but it is something I’ve experienced.
Jared says:
AadelI hear what you are saying, but still i think it is words… The practical issue really comes down like this…
there are two types of people who say they are christians. (well three I suppose)
1 type says they went down the aisle when they were 12 so they are sure they are going to heaven. despite the fact that not once since have they given any consideration at all to walking with Jesus.
another type says that they struggle with a daily battle with all sorts of sin and failure, but they mourn that and wish Jesus would change them.
Then I suppose the third type is the growing christian (but I would argue a lot of the second and third overlaps – but thats not the point).
The lordship salvation arguers are trying to convert the first group, who no, I really would have to question the sincerity of their faith.
It seems that your heart (and very well intentioned) is that those in the second group don’t feel shamed, spurned, or damaged by that argument. And i can understand how they could.
Maybe we do disagree, and you would say that the guy who went down front once and then rests in an assurance that he gets to go to heaven – though he has no love for Christ or desire for him at all.. maybe he is a christian. I can’t agree with that, so if that is where we disagree, then I will be happy to disagree and call you sister.
Salvation is certainly Christ alone faith alone – but i guess i would have to go to James and clarify what we mean by FAITH because even the demons believe – and shudder.
But I just wanted to clarify exactly because I still think its words and which things we emphasize.
And now I would like to apologize to Shaun – I feel like this is way off the post topic. but it all just seemed to come out, and so I went with it. Never wanted to hijack the comments 🙂
Shaun Groves says:
No worries, Jared. I so appreciate the humility and respect the two of you have shown talking this through. I learned something along the way too. Thanks.
Aadel says:
Jared-
I would tend to agree with you on your points.
Thank you Shawn for allowing us to have this important discussion.
Jared I appreciate your honesty and grace in this matter. I never want to assume that someone who has “walked the aisle at 15” or “been baptized at 7” and then walked away from God in all visible ways is not saved. My husband was raised in a godly home and expressed a faith in Christ early on. He didn’t live for God from 16 on. When I was saved at 20 (we were married but separated), he confessed that he had been fighting God’s will the whole time. He submitted to Christ soon after and we have been living for Him ever since.
I don’t want to speculate when he was saved or what faith was saving faith. I would rather take a person at their word that they trusted Christ. I would still share the glorious message of the gospel with them- because the entire Bible is the gospel. I would encourage them to grow and live deeper in Christ.
I hope that helps explain where I am coming from.
Humbly in our Lord,
Aadel
Aadel says:
And- I spelled your name wrong Shaun. Sorry!
I also didn’t use any Scripture in my discussion. How naughty of me!
Jared says:
LOL Aadel, thanks for making me look bad! Neither did i!! (you weren’t supposed to bring that fact up)
I think that fellowship between people who truly believe that the life death and Resurrection of Jesus is what redeems us is more important than other the other little theological obstacles we have to overcome.
And I look forward to the day when the bride of Christ will be one, whether or not we agree or have all the answers.
Thanks for being a part of that bride…
Kelli says:
Once again you have made me pause and think. *sigh* It really would be easier if I didn’t have to do that. 🙂
I agree with many, many points that you mentioned in this post but I also think I lean a bit more in Jared’s direction. What I appreciate most when you talk about theology and what you believe, however, is the grace with which you convey your points. It’s so nice and freeing to read posts like this one and know that I have the freedom to disagree while also feeling the challenge to determine and discover why I disagree.
That’s where all that pesky thinking comes into play. This post, and several others that you’ve written that have challenged me, have been real faith builders in that I have to decide if I really understand what I say I believe. So thanks for challenging me to dig deeper yet again. 😉
Christine says:
Interesting…many thoughts swirling after reading this post. Theological mutt status is appealing right now.
I’m definitely more Anabaptist than Calvinist, as is the church to which we belong. In practice we are far more rooted in Biblical theology than Systematic. But we’re Lutheran, so there’s a whole new kettle of fish to process. A Lutheran church that called a Presbyterian anti-tulip pastor who was raised Catholic.
We’re also very much about being less concerned with the importance of the disagreement and finding common ground as servants of Christ. We find ourselves at odds with some of what’s happening in the modern American evangelical movement, whatever that means exactly. So as you put it…I don’t really know the answer and I don’t know that it really matters all that much. Especially given that if I were to say “I’m a Lutheran” to someone, I’m going to immediately feel inclined to qualify that by explaining all the things it doesn’t mean.
The more enchanted I become with Christ, the less enchanted I find myself with denominational Christianity…
Shaun Groves says:
It’s funny that every time I go to a Baptist church a minister inevitably says, “Were not a typical Baptist church.” Meaning what, I’m not sure, but I think we all do this. “I’m a Calvinist but I don’t like to argue about predestination.” “I’m Baptist but I don’t have a problem with drinking.” “I’m Lutheran but I have questions about infant baptism.” “I’m Anabaptist but I buy into a lot of reformed theology too.”
I don’t know that there are many people who can truly say they are 100% anything. And I don’t think that means denominations are bad as much as it means they’re made up of real people wrestling and changing and learning as they go.
Jason Rust says:
“I don’t know that there are many people who can truly say they are 100% anything. And I don’t think that means denominations are bad as much as it means they’re made up of real people wrestling and changing and learning as they go.”–That was good.
Classifications seem to help sort out the high level beliefs quickly (especially with ones that are vastly different), but never tell the whole story. I can say I go to a SB church, but my view of a SB church is very skewed from others. Ours is pretty “liberal” (so i’ve heard), but its all i have known and is my only viewpoint. I guess you just have to dig in with someone to see where they are. It’s nice to find out (a lot of the time) that people are wrestling. I think it’s a sign of growth.
Brad Richardson says:
Wow. Well said.
Michelle says:
Reading all this makes my head swim, so I’ll just stick with Bible believing, grace needing Christ follower 🙂
Emma Alexander says:
Thank you for sharing that! As yourself, I come from a very diverse “church” background, and am now in a Mennonite church. Last fall I took an Anabaptism class, sponsored by my church conference. This brings so much clarity to the whole distinction of anabaptism. Puts into words the concept I knew was there, but couldn’t explain.
Emma C.
Melissa Jones says:
I’ve been part of a Southern Baptist church since I was six days old. When I went overseas, I did so with the IMB because it didn’t even occur to me that there were other sending organizations. One of the questions they ask in their application process is about your “Southern Baptist identity.” I certainly identified myself 100% with SBs prior to my time overseas. Now…..eh……
Theologically, I think I agree most with SBs in terms of what’s in the “Baptist Faith & Message” than I would with something similar from most other denominations (C&MA – my hubs’ background – would be the exception…I haven’t seen any difference theologically between us except that they emphasis missions just a little more than SBs).
In terms of “systematic” vs. “Biblical” theology though (heh….love the name….your theology may be “systematic,” but _ours_ is “_Biblical_!”)…..I think I tend more towards “Biblical.” My issue comes in when the same process isn’t applied in all circumstances. It makes me a little crazy when I’m told in once instance that “the Bible doesn’t speak to that particular thing specifically, so it’s up to the individual believer to decide what’s best for them” (which sounds suspiciously post-modern to me), but in all other instances when the Bible doesn’t speak specifically to a topic, you look to what it says about the broader issues, then apply those to a specific situation (e.g., the Bible is silent on the issue of whether or not it is ok for believers to exceed the speed limit, but it tells us in more general terms to obey the laws of the land unless they directly conflict with God’s laws. That general statement can be applied to speeding specifically.)
Anyway…I guess that’s neither here nor there. Unless the label I should be given is “pedantic Biblical theologist who was raised SB.”
Melissa Jones says:
Although it occurs to me as I re-read what I wrote….is that exactly “systematic” theology? Because I’ve set up a “system” or “process” for how to figure out what the Bible says about things the Bible doesn’t talk about? Or am I over-thinking this?
Brad Richardson says:
Shaun, relating to your response to Jared above, what is the distinction you are making between the Kingdom and the Good News? I’ve seen the video with you preaching on the subject but I’m still not sure I’m clear on where you are coming from. Is it just that the Good News being preached to the poor is one of the *signs* of the Kingdom as opposed to it *being* the Kingdom? Am I even close?
Shaun Groves says:
I think the problem some have with what I’ve preached/written at times has been that I don’t draw a distinction between the “gospel” or “Good News” and “the kingdom.” Because, well, Jesus didn’t.
In Mark 1 the Bible says Jesus preached the Good News of the kingdom. Some get upset when I say this. They quote Paul who said the gospel (or Good News) was Christ born, crucified, and resurrected. I agree with them. I think that’s all part of God’s rule being demonstrated on earth in human history – the kingdom. They seem to be saying the kingdom and the cross are two different things – one is gospel and the other is not. I think they are both components of the gospel. Confused? Me too.
Jared says:
yes me too – confused – but agree completely
brad says:
Yep. Confused, but I think I agree.
brad says:
BTW, thanks for prompting the discussion with your article. This has been really good.
Nena says:
I LOVE this! Shaun, I heard you speak in Michigan on the “God’s Not Dead” tour. It was like a breath of fresh air. I struggle to put words to what I believe and how I feel, especially in response to the eloquence of the Calvinists I know. Thank you for expressing the Gospel of the Kingdom so well, and for doing it without the bite so often present in theological disagreement. I really enjoy and appreciate following your blog! Thanks for writing and speaking so honestly!
Shaun Groves says:
Thank you for the encouragement, Nena.
Carol J. Alexander says:
That you post this is absolutely amazing to me and I hope that you delve more into the other aspects of Anabaptism in future posts, as they are what I think most people would think of when using that term. As for the 100% thing…I can say without a doubt that I am 100% Christian. 🙂 Our entire family looks forward to seeing you at EMU next week. Blessings.
Lindy says:
Excellent post, Shawn! And I especially like your “theological mutt” description of yourself. My husband would like to borrow it. We have anabaptist friends here, descendants of anabaptists for generations back. They are precious, Christlike, generous, gentle people, who live out the teachings of Jesus.
Lindy says:
Oops! I just realized I misspelled your name!!!! I’m so sorry! We knew a Shawn once.
Shaun Groves says:
No problem, Lindee.
Kurt Willems says:
Hi Shaun,
My friend Dale Best forwarded this blog to me. I want you to know that I’m both an American and an Anabaptist! But yes, in Canada, its much more the norm to embrace nonviolence as a Christian. Great post and if you ever want to talk “Anabaptism,” empire, or nonviolence, hit me up!
PS – I did a series on nonviolence called Nonviolence 101 which is available here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/category/nonviolence-101-series/
Shaun Groves says:
I spoke publicly only once about non-violence, and even then it was only to present three different views on what it means to be a peacemaker. I didn’t even say where I landed on the subject. And a couple Christian guys with pectoral muscles and no necks threatened to kick my, well, you know. I doubt that would ever happen in Canada.
But talk about how it’s the church’s responsibility and privilege to care for neighbors, not the government’s? Different response in Canada sometimes than the US. ; ) I guess it’s easier for all of us to believe things to affirm our culture than cut across it.
Kurt Willems says:
I know the feeling on speaking out publically on peace issues in this context. I’ve had my fair share of angry folks after I’ve said something about what the New Testament teaches on the subject. Canada and US… different from the onset. Too bad culture takes priority over the biblical narrative. I’ve seen this all too often in my dialogues with people about social justice. The bible moves from shalom to shalom… we ought to implement that reality in whatever ways possible in the present as an anticipation of God’s restorative justice and everlasting peace of the renewed cosmos!
Ann Voskamp says:
As a Canadian… enjoying listening to this conversation quietly from the sidelines. 🙂
Thank you, all.
Drew says:
If we’re pegging you based on blog posts, I would peg you more Moravian in thought than anything… but I’ve not really done much reading on Anabaptists.
Shaun Groves says:
I have no idea what Moravian is. I’m off to learn.
Shaun Groves says:
So I spent some time reading up on Moravians. The first Protestants. Unity, music and social work as core values. I’m in ; )
Too bad there are zero Moravian churches in Tennessee.
Dawn says:
Northern Indiana is rich in Anabaptists of many flavors. The church I attend (the Missionary Church USA) has it’s roots in the Amish, Mennonite and Brethren churches.
cshell says:
This may be way off topic, but my wife and I are struggling with a “church covenant” that has been put before us and been told to us to sign as members of our church.
We are really struggling with this, what would an Anabaptist say about it?
Zoë says:
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ If it comes to a creed, I guess that’s mine.
I also subscribe to ‘all is grace’ (a very good summation)’, because if I thought that all this suffering was for no reason I’d not want to be here any more.
Thank you, God, for loving caterpillars like me, for bathing me in grace so that one day I might be a butterfly… There is a resurrection of the soul that is so beautifully described by the metaphor of the butterfly.
I dunno. I need to go and do stuff like sweep the floor and scrub the loo.
Brittany says:
Love this Shaun! I was just talking theology with my husband the other day and we were both saying we’re not sure how we would identify ourselves as you mention in the beginning of this post. I’ve always said I’m much more comfortable not wearing any other label than “Christ-follower” and taking my cues from the Bible. We get far too caught up in defending our doctrinal positions that they often become idols. I’m not sure I’ll ever tag myself an “Anabaptist”, however, I love the idea of tending toward biblical theology rather than systematic theology. I’d say that’s pretty… biblical. 😉
Jenn says:
“So all of us need to be humble and say we believe that through the Bible God is speaking to us and theology is only our best intellectual human response to that.”
Love this.
Honestly, these kind of discussions make my chest go tight. I just don’t get why it has to be such a big deal? I mean, I get why having right theology & sound doctrine are a big deal. Goodness knows you can get all kinds of hooey teachings from people who are twisting scripture to fit their own personal theology. But I just don’t get the “we are right and you are wrong” aspects that get people all wadded up.
I do know that apart from Jesus I am nothing. Also, I tend to apply Psalm 139:13 to convicted criminals, suspected terrorists and unborn babies alike. So maybe I do have some anabaptist tendencies. I belong to an essentially reformed/charismatic church. And I cut my teeth on a good ol’ Baptist hymnal in a tiny SBC church in a tiny SC town.
A mutt? Absolutely. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Caren says:
I feel the same way. I was raised Catholic, and then in high school tried all kinds of denominations while seeking for the truth. I ended up attending a Mennonite church (in America) and then went to a CMA college, and am now serving overseas with them, but still I feel more Mennonite than CMA. Particularly for the reason “And if you can’t even get the simplest, the plainest teaching of Jesus – like “don’t kill” – why should we trust you on matters that are far more complex?” stated in your post. When people ask me “what I am” I just say a sinner following Jesus trying to obey him.
shayne says:
Shaun,
I think I understand why you wrote this post. But what I don’t understand is why it’s so important to us to place our identity in doctrine or sexuality or ethnicity or whatever else comes to mind.
I suppose I’m saying this because Paul spoke about this to a group of believers remember? Some were saying “I’m of Paul” or “I’m of Apollos.” What was Paul’s response to that?
When is The Church simply going to identify with her Saviour?
Case in point: My husband. His mother was hispanic, his dad is white. My husband has gorgeous olive-skin and black hair. People ask him all the time “What are you?”
Do you know how insulting that is? He always answers…”I’m an American.” Because that identity is more important to him than his ethnicity.
Imagine how it must sound to Jesus when we identify ourselves as Baptists, Methodists, Calvinists and on and on and on. Luther, Calvin, Driscoll, Stanley, Graham…all are great speakers, thinkers and orators.
But none of those guys died so that I could live.
I realize this comment is long and sounds like I’m accusing you personally…I’m not. I’m trying to ask the question as it pertains to The Church universally. Because when we see Jesus face to face, is our church affiliation really going to be the first thing on our minds? Will it be the first thing on His?
Christine says:
This blesses me, Shayne. Thank you!
Shaun Groves says:
I hear you, Shayne. I understand the frustration.
I’m not a person who sees denominations as separation over differences as much as celebration of differences. Of our uniqueness.
My youngest is from India. An American now but still very much Indian too. We celebrate that. We eat food from India and look at pictures from his hometown together. He plays with a little girl from India regularly and we make sure he speaks frequently with an elderly couple in our neighborhood who are from his region. Someday we’ll start making regular trips to India together too. His heritage and history is one part of what makes him truly unique.
All my children are unique. Gresham is an intense and sportsy entrepreneur. Penelope is a sensitive funny artist who loves spicy food and Justin Beiber. Gabriella loves organization and pink and jewelry and all things girly as much as she likes being in charge.
My relationship with each one is very different too because of their uniqueness. I discipline, play, joke and teach each one differently. And they treat me differently too.
They even perceive me differently. One kid recently told me I was easy on Penelope. But Penelope had just complained that I was too hard on her during piano practice. One is embarrassed when I take pictures at school events and another says it makes her feel famous.
Same is true of faith. Because we’re different we may relate to and even view God differently. People who view God in the same way choose to cluster together to pursue God in a common way, from a common starting point.
And while God’s nature doesn’t change I sure do think he parents each of us differently too.
I choose to see denominations as something beautiful. Maybe they didn’t start that way but I choose to view them positively now. All God’s children relating to him uniquely. So their methods, values, beliefs, personality differ. But what matters most – Christ crucified and resurrected – all God’s children have in common. We’re still family.
Does that help?
Zoë says:
Well said, Shaun 🙂
brad says:
This…is excellent. After spending some time in a conservative Mennonite(ish) culture, the Lord placed us in the midst of a somewhat conservative evangelical church. We were in need of healing and these folks have loved on us, prayed for and with us and brought us back to health. When we began attending there were so many things I didn’t agree with them on (and some I still don’t) but they are my family and have been for the last ten years now. I love the perspective you express above as learning to love the body of Christ was a painful lesson for me. Despite the differences, God loves His bride and I’ve been learning to as well. Anyway, love your perspective on denominations.
shayne says:
That’s a gorgeous viewpoint from a matured Christian.
(Everytime I think of that sweet little boy Queen’s “Somebody To Love” pops into my head. I wonder why that is?)
But don’t you agree that the beauty of diversity is made more evident when seen as a whole?
Right now I’m listening to the Cold Mountain Soundtrack and just revelling in the harmony of the Sacred Harp Singers. I can hear all the parts…but it wouldn’t sound as wonderful if I picked it apart and listened to just the Altos, because I myself am an alto singer.
And I suppose that’s where my real frustration comes from. Most people don’t look at denominations the way you do. To hear some, you’d think that the Kingdom is only made up of ears…or noses…or eyes…instead of the whole beautifully wretched and grace-covered Bride.
I totally respect what you’re saying…I’m just aching for unity.
Shaun Groves says:
Great analogy, Shayne. Tuning into unity can be hard sometimes. For all of us. There are a lot of solos and outright noise to listen through.
Paige says:
Shayne you said: “Imagine how it must sound to Jesus when we identify ourselves as Baptists, Methodists, Calvinists and on and on and on. Luther, Calvin, Driscoll, Stanley, Graham…all are great speakers, thinkers and orators.”
This is the very reason I can’t stand denominations. Hence I will only attend churches that are decidedly NON DENOMINATIONAL. :o) I’m not yelling there, just making a strong point. I wish I could see denominations the way you do Shaun. I can’t though. I’ve only seen denominations cause strife and division. I wish it wasn’t so. I wish we could all just live in the Spirit every day and follow Him. There would be a lot less strife and division if we could.
I’m with Shayne. I’m just aching for unity.
Thorren says:
Paige, I grew up in a more traditional reformed church and am now part of a non-denominational church. The thing is, denominations are founded on the basis of a core set of beliefs, the lens through which they view the world. In most cases, the same is true of non-denominational churches.
In the latter it may not be based on historical teachings (directly), but more on the viewpoint of the leadership of that church at the time. Ultimately though, even as a non-denominational church, the room for error and difference in interpretation is still present.
Ultimately the church is made up of the people, not the denominations. Yes, over the years we have grouped together with others who have a similar view of God to our own, but ultimately we all come together with a common belief that goes something like this:
Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, he rose from the dead, he was seen. This is the reality, the fundamental that we need to rally around.
If we can focus on individuals, remember that it’s about people, then the denominational beliefs start to become, as Shaun suggested, a common starting point for certain groups, not something that we need to see as a division of the church as a whole.
Just because I don’t share all of the doctrinal beliefs of a particular denomination does not mean they don’t have a place. If belonging to a certain denomination can help a follower of Christ to grow and become closer to God, then to me that denomination is a good thing, even if it is not for me.
By the way, really appreciate this post and all of the discussion going on around it.
Charles Specht says:
Ha ha.
Do you feel like someone might try to tar and feather you for being an Anabaptist? 🙂
Shaun Groves says:
No, because most people don’t know what that is. They just hear “Baptist” and give me a pass. ; )
Jessica says:
Pahahaha.
Christin @ Joyful Mothering says:
I finally stopped labeling myself. After giving my life over 15 years ago, I still don’t have all the answers. *gasp* I know.
I didn’t read all the comments (I wish I had time to), but the ones I did read, (b/w Jared and Aadel) were a great example of the love of Christ.
I came out of the Assemblies of God and now go to a Lutheran church (but, I’m not “Lutheran”), and I don’t believe in baby baptism. I went to AOG for many years (13?) believing they were the only “right” denomination (I know, crazy, isn’t it?) I am so thankful that God has stretched me and is teaching me.
I’m a Christ-follower who believes in the Bible as the inspired Word of God. A mouthful, I understand. But it seems to me there are pieces of every “sect” or “denomination” that I could accept as “truth” (from the Bible) and other pieces I’d reject as man made or mis-interpreted or flat out false.
So, even though I go to a Lutheran church, I don’t follow or believe 100% of the doctrine. That was true of the Assemblies of God as well. No one has it perfectly right because we are man made groups.
The way I see it – perfect doctrine cannot save you; but false doctrine can destroy you.
Tread carefully work out your salvation with fear and trembling. The Bible has much to say about faith and works going hand in hand.
Just know the place of grace. Seek Him and the rest will follow. The “Him” of the Bible, not the “Him” you create in your mind. (Totally talking to myself here, too) 🙂
Elijah Rainey says:
Being a “theological mutt” is wonderful because God instills a hope for a greater life in all of us. Without a little bit of ourselves inside our faith it really isn’t OUR faith is it? God brings us to him in many ways and in the end, whether you’re a Methodist, Baptist, Anabaptist, United Brethren, or otherwise, we’re all headed toward the same place with a father who loves us.
Liz Reeves says:
Here’s my take on things:
I grew up in that same East Texas Southern Baptist church you did…then married a boy who didn’t grow up in the Church, but had a lot of Church of Christ influence from his grandmother. We married in an Independent Christian Church & later joined a Bible Church. When we went into full time ministry, we were in a Church of God (Cleveland branch) which is a Pentacostal church. We later returned to the Bible Church.
Ultimately we learned several things.
1. We’re “mutts” too. We don’t really 100% “fit” any denominational molds. And that’s fine. It means we can fit in anywhere…we don’t have to agree 100% to feel comfortable.
2. So long as the church teaches 4 basic things, the rest is just “fluff”. Important fluff to that particular church, undoubtedly, but the fluff varies from one congregation to the next and we’ve learned not to focus on the fluff so long as the basic things are intact.
Those 4 things?
1. virgin birth
2. atoning death
3. resurrection
4. 2nd coming
But that’s just me………
Kathy Schwanke says:
I prefer my label of “Heinz 57” to “Mutt”… *winks* …This is a sweet conversation…Full of grace, seasoned with salt. It is good to be part of the Body of Christ. An older man in our fellowship talked of believers being like bricks in a mixer. We tumble together and get free of our rough edges. Living stones we are. :0)
Kathy Schwanke says:
PS. I really like your music…it ministers to my soul.
Veretax says:
Interesting blog, and I agree with its sentiment. I was born and raised in a Reformed Faith Presbyterian Church that was very Systematic in its Theology, that being Calvinist. Shaun is right on the money that it leads you to viewing all scripture through that lens, I’ve been there. However, I no longer claim to be Calvinist or Presybterian. I happen to go to a Baptist church because I agree more with what most Baptists may say and believe about the bible, but if i were to use one word to describe me, it would be Biblicist. I believe the bible. I believe what it says as my knowledge and understanding grows dynamically after careful and regular study. Does that make me Anabaptist? I don’t know, and frankly not having a denominational label doesn’t bother me either.
I enjoyed this post Shaun. Keep up the great work.