I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.
-Charles H. Spurgeon
I had no idea what a divisive issue birthing was until Becky was pregnant with our first. This friend lobbied for at-home birth with a dula, and praise and worship music in place of drugs. Another recommended her doctor, the plush birthing rooms at the hospital down the street, and taking any drug offered.
When we were pregnant it seemed there were only two kinds of parents around: medicated and out-of-their-mind.
As if the totality of being a parent was in how our baby moved from inside to outside the womb.
Is this all that unlike the debate between “Arminianism” and “Calvinism”?
Did I choose God or did God choose me? Just one of the points these theological camps argue.
Chosen for what? I ask.
And regardless of the answer – forgiveness of sin, eternity in heaven, right standing with God – the question turns out to be, essentially, about conversion. It is a debate centered on birth. Not life.
I’ve been asked to publicly pick a side, to say what kind of Christian I am: Calvinist or Arminian.
I won’t do that.
Because what we believe about how we were born must never define us more than our shared belief that Jesus lives.
That is the center of the gospel.
Erin says:
Yes.
MainlineMom aka Sarah says:
I would never ask anyone to “pick a side”…that’s so…silly. However I will disagree with you that this debate is only about how we were “born”. I believe in very much informs our view of God, and therefore how we live each and every day, how we do missions, how we pray, how we serve…I could go on.
Do I think it’s necessary to choose a side or even know which way you believe? Nope. But I think to boil it down to a chicken and egg argument is over simplifying it.
Shaun Groves says:
I added the words “centers on” to the post after your comment. Hope that helps.
And of course I’m simplifying! It’s a heady complex debate that’s gone on for a few hundred years and this is, well, just a blog post ; )
Carole Turner says:
Preach it brother!!
Kit says:
good analogy! As we’re currently expecting our 4th, we’re steeped anew in the debate of how to exit the baby and it does seem people forget that what counts most is how we raise the child after she gets here, rather than exactly HOW she gets here. It’s like that saying about focusing too much just for the wedding day and neglecting plans for a lifetime of marriage afterwards. Whoops!
I do think there’s a time and place to discuss these theological arguments (as MainlineMom said, they inform many of our other views too), but how right you are that we should not elevate any one issue too highly and thus forget what unites us, our life in Christ! ๐
Alden says:
“Welcome to heaven. You’re name please?”
“Yes, I’m John Calvin. I believe I was chosen to be here. And this is John Wesley. He’s my plus one.”
Jessica says:
I’ve read a previous post of yours with the exact phrase, “I’m not a Calvinist.”
But I’m with-it enough to realize that doesn’t make you an Arminian. : )
Wish people didn’t treat it as if it’s a black and white issue.
Besides, I’m a Jesusian. ๐
Jennifer Pelletier says:
I think one of the big problems Calvinism can bring to our walk is when we, as humans, decide that we know who God called and for what. I grew up with a church leader who apparently decided that I was not chosen by God, on what grounds I still don’t know, and I was excluded by that leader from many youth events at my church. I’m still saddened that he wouldn’t think that I was worthy of God’s grace and mercy. And even if that wasn’t his intent, that’s still what hurts to consider. There are SO many stumbling blocks we can get hung up on. Being prepared to have SOME answer to challenges and questions about non-salvation issues is important, but that doesn’t mean we have to take sides. Does it matter to our salvation and eternal life whether God created everything in seven days as we know them or is it more important that we have that relationship with Christ and just have some sort of informed response to someone who challenges that time frame of creation? I say relationship and love and grace and mercy and then the minor details that we never got a clear Biblical answer about become largely inconsequential. Love your thought provoking points. Keep ’em coming!
Drew says:
Jennifer, first let me say that I’m sorry that anyone bearing the the name of Christ would treat you that way it’s uncalled for.
Secondly, as a “card carrying 5-pointer”, let me say that for someone to presume that they know whom God has called is not in any way, shape, or form representative of the teachings of reformed theology. On the contrary, since we believe that God does the choosing, and He alone knows who they are, that we are responsible to preach Christ to all.
If the Doctrines of Grace ever lead a person to behave gracelessly, then they have not truly understood them.
Finally, let me say that while I have no problem identifying myself in the reformed camp, I don’t disparage anyone who isn’t sure or doesn’t want to discuss the issue. I really like Shaun’s approach here, and I think a lot of us could use the reminder that it’s not enough to just get our theology “right”.
Melissa says:
Amen! #thatisall ๐
Kelly says:
Well, I’m now left pondering where the births happened!
Jenn says:
This is a great post, Shaun. I grew up very naive about this topic and while I tend to lean more to the reformed side of things, I still couldn’t tell you why it really matters outside of theological debates. Maybe I’m *still* naive, but I don’t think it matters to the people we encounter who need to meet Jesus.
Adam says:
Amen man. Amen!
kristin says:
Amen! And, really, this encourages me about things that have nothing to do with this Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. But it’s a wonderful reminder that Jesus lives. And that’s ultimately what matters. How someone parents or celebrates Christmas doesn’t matter if they’re loving Jesus and the people around them.
Kelli says:
Oh my heavens, Amen!
Liz Reeves says:
Having been raised in a Southern Baptist church & then married a non-Southern Baptist voy, I’ve heard this debate a thousand times over the years from both sides.
Here’s what my faith boils down to—and ALL that I’m willing to argue:
1. Virgin birth
2. His Atoning Death
3. Resurrection
4. Second Coming
Everything else is just “fluff”.
Liz Reeves says:
Ummm…that should say *boy*! ๐
OI says:
Absolutely!
Don’t pick a side. To be honest with you, when I see words like “Calvinist” or “Reformation” or “Protestant” or “Charismatic” in the title of any post, I don’t even respond.
But somehow or another I kept on reading what you had to say, and I’m glad I did.
Too many people, even well meaning Christian people, focus too much on “labels”, forgetting to let the main thing be the main thing.
Christ died for our sins, he rose on the third day, and those who confess his name shall be saved.
Melody Joy King says:
Whew boy, did I ever hear about Calvinism at Bible College. Can’t tell you howmany times I heard things like: “I’m a 5 point Calvinist all the way, well I’m a 4, I’m a 3.5, and so on. That being said I appreciated the fact that our Profs encouraged us to study and understand Calvinism, etc. and then decide for ourselves where we wanted to stand on the matter. I learned real quick that it’s pointless to argue over it. All of this to round about-ly get to my point of saying, I agree with this post 100%! I loved the way you prefaced it with the whole human birth debacle, hilarious and effective. :0P
Thomas Dalke says:
Calvinism
Lutheranism
Anabaptism
Pacifism…
It’s just another “ism” that ultimately only usurps the Person and Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ and thus undermines the unity of the brethren in the bond of peace by supplanting the One True Head with a theological position. Yes there are theological truths in these various camps and some are stronger than others. Yet we are never commanded to put our faith in an “ism” or to judge another’s servant based on their preferential positions on an “ism” and thus these non-saving things (See Romans chapter fourteen for a principal). For whatever Spiritual truths that are born out of the Scriptures concerning election or predestination etc. do not bring you into the faith, they only reveal to you that you are in the faith. That God has brought you near to Himself through His reconciling you exclusively through Jesus Christ His Son, and that you having believed have received Him as your own, which is their ultimate purpose to strengthen you in your faith In Jesus Christ the Lord.
The sad thing is though as people come into the faith they start out with Jesus Christ but are invariably asked to align themselves; and thus their faith; with one of these (or a myriad of other) positions and not hold exclusively to Christ Jesus crucified for them. Invariably then making their ongoing acceptance not based on their faith exclusively in Jesus Christ as testified to in the Scriptures; but on their aligning themselves to the preferred “ism” that the leadership there, or in that particular camp expounds as “orthodoxy”. The Apostle warned the Corinthians of this grievous error in 1 Corinthians chapter one where division in the Body was being born out believers aligning themselves under various church leaders’ names, even of Christ’s: 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, โI am of Paul,โ or โI am of Apollos,โ or โI am of Cephas,โ or โI am of Christ.โ 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Thus I would ask was John Calvin, Martin Luther, Menno Simmons etc. crucified for you? Or were you baptized into any of these men’s names? Or do you stand before God justified by any of these men’s names or any of the theological camps or preferential positions born under their names or anyone else’s?
Having then opened myself and my faith up to much criticism and misunderstanding I’ll simply conclude with 1 Cor. 1:2-3 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, (i.e. everywhere) to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. NKJ
Shari says:
Amen! Excellent analogy and post!
katie says:
lots of words and labels and ideas to ponder…I’m a Calvinist, I guess…not because I think Calvin was a stellar gentleman who is worth following…kind of an ass actually, from what I can tell… I don’t think only Calvinists can be saved or are smarter or anything like that…in fact, the opposite. I believe that anything I can choose to do, I can change my mind and unchoose to do later…I’m what people call a Calvinist because my life today is so hard…sick, sick baby, angry frustrated 4 1/2 yr old, mastitis, all help gone for the day, dogs throwing up and barking, stomach cramps, diabetic, diet restricted to mostly chicken and rice due to baby (which I don’t have time to cook and am tired of eating,), no real sleep to speak of, no shower to speak of since Sunday, no real relief in sight, have spent my only morning break on this post which will more likely cause eye-rolling than understanding, which was my intent…today it is incredibly hard to believe that God loves me and is for me and does everything to His own glory and for my good…and my only real hope is that God will not let me “unchoose” Him today…that He has chosen to save me for whatever reason and so it is His business to keep me saved.
Same for our friend who has stopped going to church and is in deep depression, his family is falling apart before his eyes and he’s angry. He thinks God is worthless. My only hope is that God chose Him, and will not ultimately let him “unchoose” to be a Christian…
Maybe other people have more faith than me or may be stronger or not as big a baby…but today, the gospel for me is that Jesus came and died for me because He loves me…and He chose me and will keep me saved because He knows my heart–prone to doubt and despair and fear…it has very little to do with my birth and everything to do with my life…so, in faith that God will keep me for heaven because he chose me for it, I’m going to go cook my chicken and rice and pray to be thankful and not angry…pray that God will give me patience and hope for this day…I guess that is why this is such an intensely personal topic?
Christine C says:
Katie, praying for you and your wee ones today. Christine.
Andy Hudelson says:
Agreed – agreed.
I think the Kingdom is more than Calvinism or Arminianism. Jesus came to a world of faith divided by the Romans. Some wanted to kick them out (by force if necessary) – others wanted to appease them (some going so far as to be employed by them). They must have asked Jesus to choose sides (directly or behind his back) “Which side are you on?” Jesus did not avoid the issue – but instead jumped into, and over it. He selected Simon the Zealot and Matthew the Tax-Collector to his leadership team… the ancient equivalent to Nancy Pelosi & Rush Limbaugh on your church board. He didn’t evade or sidestep. Nor did He dismiss or say it wasn’t important. Rather – He raised the Kingdom beyond either / or. The Kingdom is well beyond the confines of human thought – including really smart guys like Calvin, Wesley, or Luther. The Kingdom is beyond the labels like missional, attractional, and emerging. The Kingdom is a community (a family!) with one, and only One, King.
Zoรซ says:
I love the pic of Calvin and Hobbes at the top ๐
I think it is a daft question and unanswerable. Good for you for refusing to answer.
I know I belong to my Master, but did I choose to be his or did he choose me? Or both? Or neither? Will it matter, on judgement day, when we come face to face? Or will I tell Jesus I was too busy arguing to hear the cry of my broken neighbour, too busy being ‘right’ to respond to the famine in East Africa, or to write to my sponsored child…?
Thank you, Shaun, for your eminently sensible post. Amen, I say ๐
Kristen Howerton says:
Such a good analogy. In my opinion, Christians quibbling over these theological nuances are typically missing the whole point . . . such a distraction from the work we’ve been called to.
Thomas Dalke says:
We are called into Christ to become someone i.e. saints; not to debate something. Keep your faith in Jesus, follow Christ and leave the “isms” to the theologians.
ellen read says:
It’s both. God is 100% sovereign and chooses who is his. AND he allows people 100% free will to choose to accept him or not. How those two mesh is a mystery and I can live with that.
Sharon says:
Such raw and beautiful responses. I am encouraged just by the transparency of people who just want to let Jesus be the bottom line…..
Sharon says:
p.s. what I mean is that everyone here (no matter what side they are on) HAS responded in such a real way. no arguments…just Jesus
Thomas Dalke says:
As strong as opinions are about them, and the exponents of them, none are infallible (Only Jesus Christ the Lord is). As well whatever Spiritual truth’s contained within them are never spoken of in the Scriptures as an independent entity; rather they are given by the Spirit of God through Jesus Christ’s Apostle’s as a part of a much larger picture and purpose. Who has the Lord Jesus Christ as the foundation and the purpose for their being given; through whom we all have redemption from sin and death when we believe in Him. Therefore divorcing them from their context and purpose and speaking of them as entities in of themselves, is only exalting them above the Head of all things who is Christ the Lord; for no one enters the Kingdom of God by knowing them, rather by knowing the Lord. Therefore do not let the simplicity of the gospel, and the unity of the Spirit be lost for them.
Keep your faith in Jesus Christ the Lord and leave the “ism’s” to the theologians.
Mollianne says:
The thought came to me as a very young and quite naive bride of a military man, attending Eccumenical Services at the Protestant Chapel in Germany that I doubted that there was a special place in heaven for the doctrinally correct. I doubt that any of that will matter when we stand before the Lord in glory. I believe what will matter is how will we answer questions like, ‘How did you treat my children?’ and ‘Did you walk your path with eyes wide open to the needs of other? Did you share my love?’
Warwick says:
Thank you Shaun.
I needed to read this more than you can know.
Jon David Hamilton says:
Shawn, thanks for your thoughts…. I do get soooo tired of this long debate over who chose first,. us or God….I believe the main message should be is… are you His and is He yours… labels box us in, labels limit us and even more sadly, labels separate us…I believe that when we are finally home, it will all make sense to us then. “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as i am fully known.”
Cheryl says:
I’ll never forget standing in the lunch line in Bible college in the late 70’s listening to a couple of seniors argue about this and other theological matters. They would get downright angry, it was very disturbing even tho I didn’t really know why at the time. I don’t think that right doctrine doesn’t get us into heaven and obsessing over and arguing our point of view as the only way isn’t a demonstration of the new life within. The grace of God is just way way too big for that.
I will also never forget how recently the facilitator of a small group I was in shared how she came to Jesus….she didn’t have the terminology down, didn’t have the biases or know all the arguments. She just knew that once she was lost and dead and now she is alive because she met Jesus and Jesus met her right where she was. She was changed on the inside and went home to live that out w/out preaching to her husband or arguing anything. Five years later her husband met Jesus too, unhindered by ridiculous doctrinal arguments or spiritual pride or any of that nonsense. And, that was the most beautiful thing I think I’d ever heard.
Thomas Dalke says:
Save your money, keep your faith in Jesus for in knowing and obeying Him you will find abundent life and peace, something no “ism” can do for you.
Jason says:
Amen!