Shaun Groves
What is this faith that celebrates a soul damned to hell?
What is this faith that laughs at a man reaching the end of his opportunity to be forgiven and adopted by God?
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16
I don’t recognize this faith.
It’s not mine.
P.D. Ross says:
Thank you.
We are THAT family says:
I thought THE SAME thing as my Twitter and Facebook streams filled up with these messages from CHRISTIANS.
so sad and I want no part.
Rebecca says:
I totally agree đ I live outside of the US and have been so saddened to see this type of reaction. It’s a sad day all around…for everyone.
Meredith Dunn says:
Agreed. Tragic to think our response is supposed to be reflect the character of God and yet there is no resemblence.
Jay Lewis says:
Shaun, thanks for sharing your heart. I’ve been busy getting the same message out this morning. It is this kind of competitive minded “faith” that gives Christians a bad name and so hurts to the efforts of those who share Christ’s love with the world.
sara varghese says:
what a relief to hear compassion still exists….thanks
Shannon says:
Thank you, Shaun. I haven’t posted anything about it because I can even collect my thoughts yet in a coherent way.
Shannon says:
Oops … “can’t” not “can” … see I can’t even type a sentence correctly about not being able to write about it!
Jenn says:
We always seem to think alike on these things Shannon!
Lindsay says:
Not mine, either.
Jay O. says:
You know, I struggle with how to react to stuff like this. Osama, Hitler, others like them. There is a part of me that is overjoyed that they are able to take lives no longer, and there is that part of me that is disturbed at the notion that people are celebrating this death of someone that, as far as we know, isn’t going to have a pleasant eternity ahead of him. In some senses it feels like he got what he deserved. It says in the Bible that those who take lives with the sword will have their lives taken in the same way. At the same time, does anyone deserve to die? Or don’t we all, actually? And doesn’t that lead right back to the message of the gospel, which is that we don’t all have to die? Confusing. Death and war are such difficult topics.
Kees Boer says:
We can rejoice in justice, because God shows this many times in the Scriptures.
At the same time, God’s will is for all to come to know Christ as Saviour.
We need to distinguish what type of enemy the Scriptures are teaching about. The Bible is far from being pacifistic. It teaches that government bears the sword. That is in Rom. 13. When Christ comes back in Revelation 19, many of them will perish and we are told to rejoice in God’s justice. Now that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t want that person to get saved, but they aren’t my personal enemies. I’ve never had a personal problem with Osama. Of course what he did was wicked. But he could have been forgiven. Maybe at one point, he did trust Christ as Saviour. I don’t know and I doubt it….
Proverbs says: “The doing of justice is a joy for the righteous.”
Karen Brown says:
Thank you!
Will says:
I actually felt nauseated this morning watching the news. I sent an e-mail to one of the morning shows asking what statement does this celebration of death make regarding our society. Holy “justice” is only achieved upon salvation.
I am proud of our military and their dedication. I am saddened by the celebrations.
Kathy says:
“I am proud of our military and their dedication. I am saddened by the celebrations.”
YES!! Thank you for voicing that!
terri says:
I agree with you Will. Yes justice was done be people; however it is not for us to judge that is up to GOD and only GOD.
God Bless out troops.
Jenny says:
Not mine either. I shared this on FB, but other than that, I haven’t posted anything about it, I just can’t get coherent thoughts out about it all.
jody says:
Amen. And by the way, I appreciate and respect the stuffin’ out of your heart for Jesus and your blog that shares it:)
Beth says:
Thank you. While God does indeed place governments in charge, and he also uses them to carry out His wrath (Romans 13). But, for the US to serve as judge, jury and executioner is a grave injustice. Bin Laden was evil no doubt, but so are we all. We all deserve hell. It is only through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we are spared. I’m not in any way defending the actions of Bin Laden, but I am grieving over the pure joy and elation that Christians in particular are pouring out over this. How is it any different than the judgment that Al Quiada passed on our nation on 9/11? God is grieving for sure.
Katie says:
I was saying this same thing to my husband and son this morning. This is not something I want to be associated with as a Christian. Not at all. Thank you Shaun.
David Wells says:
Agreed, this is not a time for coarse jesting, although course digesting would be in order.
The admonition is the same for all: Galatians 6:7.
My joy is that God is faithful and just. Fear of the Lord? Amen, it is the beginning of many good things.
Thomas says:
When I first heard the news that he was killed, I felt conflicted over this. It was not as much joy as relief that it was over. At the same time I felt kind of sad that he was killed. I wonder if the killing of Bin Laden is justice or revenge for what he masterminded. If there is even a little bit of revenge in this can there be true justice any more?
I’m just sadden by some of our actions afterwards. What does it say about our reverence for life, loving the unlovable, and trusting God and his judgement.
Alexia says:
“relief and sadness” This is how I felt as well. Relief that a key person who held many factions united was finally gone, but at the same time a little sad. He was a person with wives and children and a life. And I’m sure he’s realizing now the mistakes he made and is wishing he could change them.
There is not a single death in this world that should be celebrated and joked about. Instead we should be grieving for the lives lost…for eternity.
Kathy says:
Amen! And thank you – for writing this, for your heart, and your voice!
Kelli says:
No, it’s not a cause for celebration, but I’m going to stick my neck out here and say I’m not sorry. I’m not jumping up and down singing about it, but I did pump my fist in the air and give a shout out to our troops last night. Honestly, Bin Laden was a despicable human being who’s heart was so hardened that even in his final moments he used a women as a human body shield. I’m glad that justice was served here on Earth. And I am glad that we have a God who serves as the ultimate judge and who will hand out justice eternally. That doesn’t mean that I think I deserve any better than Bin Laden. But for the grace of God and His merciful gift, I would suffer the same eternal fate. But it does mean that in my human form, I am breathing a sigh of relief that his life has been ended here on Earth. He had a lifetime to reconcile his heart to God.
Please don’t burn me at the stake. I don’t wish hell on people, but for men like Osama Bin Laden…well…again, it’s a good thing I’m not in charge of deciding his eternal fate.
Ron says:
Yes. Well stated and I agree. I need add nothing.
Sheila says:
Kelli ~ I just wanted to let you know there are many of us who are like minded with your thoughts! I am an American, who is the wife of a military veteran, but I am also a Christian and I can honestly say that I did a fist pump and “FINALLY” shout when I heard the news. If that is wrong, then God can judge me for it at the judgement seat! But I am not gonna feel one bit sorry for the fact that a murderous evil person no longer exists in this world! I can’t quote chapter and verse, but I am pretty sure that the Bible says God will not wait on man forever to repent and turn to Him. I would say God gave Osama plenty of opportunity to repent….and since God is omniscient, maybe He knew Osama would never repent and therefore decided the rest of the world had suffered at Osama’s hands long enough. Just my two cents worth.
Arny says:
I agree Kelli…i couldn’t have said it better myself…
Arny says:
I agree Kelli…i couldn’t have said it better myself…
If WE are honest….given the opportunity…I don’t think any of us would have gone into a room alone with this man knowing who he is and talk to him about the Gospel….because he knew it…and rejected it…and hated it…..he turned his heart away from it….which caused him to be his mass murderer….
Diana says:
Shaun, I agree. Yet I find myself struggling with thinking that “justice has been served.” I admit that a Paul-type conversion would have been a much better route for OBL, but I also serve a God who in Scripture is described as a just God, who wiped out nations that weren’t following Him. Yes, justice is His to give, but who are we to decide when or how the justice should be given. Could it be given through a couple of Navy Seals…maybe. Do I think that people should be dancing in the streets…no, but is it possible that his death was necessary in order to prevent him from future threats on this country? Is there is difference between revenge and justice? These are all of the things I am struggling to wrap my head around. Sorry for the long comment…
Scott says:
“I donât recognize this faith.
Itâs not mine.”
Are you part of the community of believers that count themselves as Christ ones? Or not. You don’t get to pick and choose family. I love your ministry and your music. But this idea that “this faith” is different than yours is silly. It’s american christianity for better or worse.
These expressions of giddyness over Bin Laden’s death is the result of the true gospel getting perverted into something it was never meant to be.
But instead of contending for a higher view of what it means to walk with Jesus; you simply disown those who wear ignorance on their sleeve and tout it as patriotism?
Hopefully, prayerfully, Jesus doesn’t disown you or I the way you have so easily disowned them.
Shaun Groves says:
Scott, forgive me. In being concise I was unclear.
No aim here to disown any believer, just beliefs.
Thank you for the chance to clarify.
Susan says:
I agree with Kelli and Diana — well said.
Susan says:
Very well said. Thank you.
Traci says:
Thank you. I have been so grieved at the reactions of Christians to this news. SO glad this world is not my home, I’m just a passin’ through. I will be taking my gift of salvation a lot more seriously. That could have been my eternity.
Krissy says:
Shawn didn’t disown anyone, Scott. He simply disowned the perversion of the Gospel that you talked about. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t love the people who believe that perversion.
(And I know Shawn doesn’t need me to defend him, but, as I completely agree with him in this case, I’m chiming in, anyway.)
Linds says:
Not mine either. A vicar here said this morning – “The reaction to the death of someone made in God’s image, however corrupted by evil they were, should, I think, be one of humility and grace.”
Thank you.
boomama says:
Thanks for sharing that, Linds (and thanks, Shaun, for your post).
Robn says:
The quote from the Vatican says it best IMHO.
âIn the face of a manâs death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred.â – Vatican Spokesman, Fr. Federico Lombardi
Lindsey says:
Thank you so much for this.
I have to remember that that though Osama Bin Laden may deserve hell, so do I, if not for the grace and mercy of Jesus.
It is in situations like these that the rubber meets the road in terms of what I really believe. But yes, I really do believe that no sin is too big for grace, that no man has stooped so low, and that God created and loves every human on this planet. I pray that God will break my heart for the same things that break His, and that certainly includes a man dying without being redeemed.
Cindy says:
I agree, Lindsey. I said these exact words to a friend this morning.
It’s a tension we live with. Justice or Mercy. Only God could accomplish both with the cross.
Kirk Winter (GMC-USA-NORTH CENTRAL REGION DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR) says:
Amen.
Michelle ~ Blogging from the Boonies says:
I am with you. I loved what Jessica (of Bohemian Bowmans) write on the subject today.
Andrea says:
“Bin Laden was a despicable human being.”
So was I, so were all of us, before Jesus captured our hearts. Bin Laden may have deserved to die…but so did all of us. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that we are somehow morally superior to him or anyone else. “There but for the grace of God go I…”
Kelli says:
Yes, I agree. In fact, I said the very same thing: “That doesn’t mean I think I deserve any better than Bin Laden. But for the Grace of God and His merciful gift, I would suffer the same eternal fate.”
I guess I’m not entirely sure what I should feel sad about though. Should I honestly feel SAD for Bin Laden? Because I don’t. Not even a little bit. I feel no sympathy for him. The only people I feel sympathy for are the people whose wounds have been torn open by his death. The thousands whose loved ones died a horried death at his orders. I feel sad for them. I sympathize with them. But Bin Laden? No. I don’t feel sad. He hardened his heart and made his choice.
I don’t mean to sound harsh, but I feel a good amount of righteous anger toward men like Osama Bin Laden. And I am actually pretty unapologetic about it.
This does not by any means, though, mean that I think myself more worthy than him of death. I recognize that I, too, apart from Christ am but a sinner in need of Grace.
Kelli says:
Sorry for the typos: “The thousands whose loved ones died a HORRID death by his orders.”
missy says:
YES. Thank you. I have such a heavy heart today.
meghan @ spicy magnolia says:
Another verse I came across today that a friend brought to mind was: âDo not gloat when your enemies fall; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice.â â Proverbs 24:17
Shaun Groves says:
Some say you and I are “misinterpreting” and pulling out of context.
I’m trying to figure out how else that verse can be interpreted. Anyone?
NancyTyler says:
I’m grateful when pastors are on Twitter. You can sure learn a lot about a person’s world view, and whether you’re really want to sit under their teaching, in those little 140 character bursts of opinion.
Scott says:
I think you can’t teach verse 17 without also teaching verse 18 (or the LORD will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from them.)
It’s a cause/effect teaching. The lesson is seems to be:
Don’t do anything that might persuade God to NOT destroy our enemy.
sara varghese says:
I’m getting Proverbs verses too, about cities rejoicing…etc.
I’m losing heart. Good friends in the military ok with the gloating.
I don’t have any problems in rejoicing over peace restored (didn’t really happen) or justice being served, like a perpetrator being taken off the streets, a murderer receiving the death penalty. It’s the outright celebration of someone’s death that I can not bring myself to celebrate. Maybe I’m too far removed. I didn’t know anyone who died in 9/11.
I think of the testimony of Gloria Staines who forgave the men that killed her husband and two sons. What a testimony, what grace! What a light! I can’t help but think all these jubilation antics over someone’s death are going to burn….ironic.
JessicaB says:
Yeah. I’ve said my piece on my blog. And I feel like I have half a right to my opinion, since my husband did two tours in this war. Jesus called us to love and disciple our enemies, not kill them.
Kelli says:
I’m not trying to fight or argue or even play Devil’s advocate. I’m truly trying to understand this point of view. How exactly could anyone have loved and discipled someone like Osama Bin Laden? I honestly don’t understand this train of thought. I get trying to reach the people groups in that area of the world and praying for members of Al Quada, but honestly and truthfully, how would a man like Bin Laden have been discipled?
Please take this question with the grace it is meant to convey. I don’t like controversy or confrontation! đ
JessicaB says:
I don’t pretend to have specific answers. I understand that my opinion is one with a broad brush stroke. So I don’t have an answer for that question.
I just can’t be happy that he died without knowing God. Or even relieved.
Krissy says:
Hi Kelli,
I’m just skimming the comments here, and I love your honesty and the openness of your question. I have been very shaped in the area of loving our enemies–especially in the Middle East–by a guy named Carl Medearis, who lived as a missionary in the Middle East for 16 years. I highly recommend that you listen to some of his talks–I guarantee that you will come away from them feeling encouraged. There’s even one entitled “What to do with an enemy.” http://carlmedearis.com/free-stuff/audio.php
Blessings,
Krissy
PJ says:
it is a struggle to let the flesh NOT rejoice over the idea of justice, but I was troubled in my Spirit and felt the heart of Christ.
Jesus said to love your enemy… I do believe in transformations. Heck we are all guilty of murder, anyone who says they have never experienced hate is probably lying, oops now that’s two sins which bring death… but yet we are Christians. Is Osama not entitled to the same love of Christ that we are because he committed a sin we deem to be more heinous than ours? Jesus died for all sin and all sinners.
Alyson says:
I agree, and I think there is no other way to take Prov. 24:17. I answered someone on facebook today with it – responding to a snide comment about his death. I have struggled with the rejoicing and gloating over his death. In the end, he was a person made in the image of God who chose the wrong path. He no longer has the chance to choose the right one. Do I think he would have? It’s probably doubtful, but I also doubt that the Lord is happy with the way his people are choosing to respond to his death.
tiffany says:
Amen. Thank you for saying this.
Sara McNutt says:
“As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.” Ezekiel 33:11
If the God of all creation doesn’t take pleasure in his death, why should we?
Laura Krokos wrote about it in further detail today on her blog; it’s called Delighting in Death: http://networkedblogs.com/hm48D.
Suzie stogner says:
Olivia and i were just saying the same thing!
Thanks shaun. What a statment “this faith is not mine”
Blessings
Suzie
Rachel says:
Thank you, thank you, thank you! While at first there was a sense of relief to know that he cannot hurt anyone else, that sense was quickly overshadowed by a heaviness. Yes, I’m relieved that he is unable to harm anyone else, but is the death of anyone reason to celebrate in such a manner? I just can’t join in. I just can’t.
Kelli says:
So is the sadness conveyed here due to the rejoicing over Bin Laden’s death or the fact that he died without knowing the Savior? Sorry, Shaun, to keep hijacking your thread. I’ll stop after this. I’m just truly having a hard time understanding how there could be any sympathy felt for someone like Osama Bin Laden. I do agree, however, that the celebratory nature with which his death was met was perverse and wrong. I’ve worked that much out in my heart…
And now I’ll stop.
Shaun Groves says:
So glad to have you here wrestling out loud with us, Kelli – so are we. No apology necessary.
I can only speak for myself, that I don’t feel joy at his death because he was not ready to die AND because he was created by and wanted by God. As much as you and me.
Kelli says:
Thanks, Shaun. I guess I’m not so much joyful at his death as I am relieved. And a little glad. I will continue to work through this on my own, but for now my feelings haven’t changed. I am thinking a little more, though, so thanks for that. And NOW I’m done. đ
Jennifer says:
An acquaintance who lives in the Middle East has told me that many of those who live there are nominal Muslims, as many in America are nominal Christians. She says that the news there is slanted in ways against Christianity, as ours is, or at least used to be, slanted against Islam. She also said that everything they know about our culture, they equate to what Christians do or the way we think, since America is considered a Christian country (and they get some very immoral American television there).
I am not bothered by the fact that this man has been stopped. I am bothered by the fact that many Americans feel like we are better than other countries & some even believe that we are on some sort of higher Spiritual plane where God has given us the right to be judge & jury over the rest of the world. History shows us that politics play too much of a role in countries’ military endeavors to be wholly righteous. History also shows us that conquests that were believed to be for holy purposes at the time were discovered to be for monetary or political gain in retrospect.
When people in predominately Muslim-believing countries see Americans on T.V. celebrating in the streets, with commentators who are putting their spin on things, it looks really similar to what we see on our news when people are celebrating death in the Muslim cultures. We watch it and think, “How sick those people are, that they would be so exhilarated by killing,” and we feel afraid of what those people could or would do to us. This type of celebrating will not end terrorism. In fact, it adds fuel to the fire. It makes people more angry, more scared for their countries’ safety and their own safety, and more willing to fight. In some cases, it incites people to action who would otherwise not.
In reality, the majority of people everywhere around the world, no matter what religion they profess, do not harbor the amount of sadistic hatred that makes mass killing something that seems right & good. We all mostly suffer from mass ignorance (in the definitive form of that word) and a pathetic amount of self-righteousness and pride.
In the Bible, when David learned that Saul had been killed, he mourned his death. Saul wanted David dead & David knew he was supposed to succeed Saul to the throne, but David wept, fasted & tore his clothes when he learned Saul was dead.
I am not saying we need to mourn Bin Laden in the way David mourned, but I think we also should consider what is causing this excessive celebration and if it is furthering the purpose Christ called us to or hindering it.
We all want to be on the winning team & the one that is on the side that is right. Unfortunately, “right” can vary depending on your perspective.
Beth says:
I don’t feel any joy at his death, or really any sadness either. I am saddened that he died without Christ. I don’t know if anyone ever tried to share the gospel with him. I know he got what he deserved; but we all deserve damnation. It’s only by the grace of God that Christians are spared eternal damnation. I am concerned with what seems to be sheer “giddiness” and outright joy at his death and the manner in which it happened; especially by many Christians I know.
When US troops finally located Hussein, he was taken alive and given a fair trial; and then executed. Hussein was no more or less evil than Bin Laden, or Hitler, or many others we can name.
My beef is that the US acted as judge, jury and executioner in this case. It has been confirmed that he was unarmed. He hid behind his wife; she was injured. While it’s certainly possible that there’d be more risk to US lives in attempting to take Bin Laden alive, we will NEVER know if that really would have happened.
My husband just retired after 24 years of military service. I am also a combat veteran. I served during the Gulf War. I fully understand the military’s role in all of this and I don’t judge those who carried out the orders given them.
It’s also true that while Bin Laden is dead, Al Quiada is alive and well. They will continue to function and the world will continue to suffer loss at their hand.
I take comfort in knowing that while I certainly don’t know everything; I do know that my Lord is sovereign and in control. He is the ultimate and only answer for all this world.
Beth
Kelli says:
Idon’t think I differ too terribly much from the majority of your commentors, but what I cannot reconcile is the diea of the God of LOVE with the JUST God. Because He’s both. I’ve been digging through scripture all night and I’ve read and re-read the verses mentioned here and elsewhere online today. I’ve also spent time pondering 1 Samual 2:9, the entire account of Pharoah in Exodus, Psalm 10: 13; 15-18 and many, many other similar scriptures that point to God’s infinite wisdom and judgement.
I still feel no pity for Bin Laden. I truly feel he got what he deserved here on Earth and, likely, on the other side of this life. It does make me sad that a man had to die without the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ but I’m going to be really trasparent for a second – I would feel much more mournful over the loss of a loved one who died apart from Christ than I am over Bin Laden. Sorry. I’m being blunt. In my opinion, Bin Laden did not deserve to die a peaceful death surrounded by loved ones, a privilege denied to thousands of individuals by his calculated and murderous heart. Am I rejoicing? No. Am I sad? No. I guess I’m sort of indifferent. I have been surprised, however, at the polarized responses of the Christian community. And it’s caused a bit of wrestling within my heart. This is a good thing. It’s been very refreshing for me to dig through scripture with this much zeal and passion. I haven’t found this much excitement in scripture in awhile and have been jolted awake.
So thanks for the healthy discourse today! I’m not going to say I’m done anymore… đ
Amy says:
I won’t be celebrating his life, because it was evil, but you won’t find me celebrating his death either.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: âAs I live,â says the Lord GOD, âI have no pleasure in the death of the wickedâŠâEven in His perfect judgment, the Lord does not glory or cheer when even a man as evil as Osama Bin Laden is killed. The death of a human soul and the assignment of that soul to eternal punishment is not something to glory over.
-Rob Robinson
MJ says:
We are asked to leave the judgement to God and commanded to love one another.
None of us knows until we get there what happens in heaven, perhaps some of us will be surprised as to who is already at the table.
Amber says:
I agree, I have watched my Facebook light up, and I just want to cry. I have chosen to respond to only one and was asked to combat scripture with scripture. All I can think is where is the love of Jesus?
Brandy @Brandy's Brood says:
From the bottom of my heart: THANK YOU!
Will be sharing this on FB and Twitter.
Dee says:
Am I OK with Osama Bin Laden being dead? Yes. He was evil personified, and I’m not surprised that things ended for him the way they did. It was the logical eventual consequence for his serial violence against humanity.
That said, I don’t believe his death warranted the joyous celebrations in the streets, for reasons beyond the spiritual idea of “loving your enemies.” This was a notable event, which was a long time coming, but by no means is it a victory or the end of brainwashed people murdering other people in the name of their false god.
Furthermore, it doesn’t make us — our our men and women in uniform — any safer.
I’m proud of our military, and have profound respect for what they do, and I am happy that they were allowed and able to do their job in this case. But the flash-mob celebrations? Not a winning moment for America, in my opinion.
Kristy K says:
I agree with everything you wrote, Dee. I feel the same way I felt after Hussein’s death. I remember feeling that I had just witnessed someone going to Hell. It was hard to swallow.
I am so proud of our armed forces (my brother included!) and thankful that they are able to do what needs to be done to keep us safe. It’s just sad that evil is so prevalent that things like this must be done. đ
Gina Martin says:
Thanks, Shaun. I have felt this way since last night when my Facebook started lighting up with all the comments. I don’t want to be a part of a faith that celebrates ANYONE’s eternal separation from our God.
I don’t claim to be uber-spiritual or totally tapped into the heart of God, but I can read Ezekiel and John and 2 Peter and know that God takes no pleasure in bin Ladin’s death and neither should I.
As a flag-toting, pledge-saying, moved-to-tears American, I can be glad that the figurehead of the movement is gone, but I cannot celebrate the death of a human for whom Christ himself died.
Shaun Groves says:
Amen.
NancyTyler says:
I felt so differently ten years ago, on the day that unrepentant Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh was put to death. I was more than glad to see him gone, to see justice done. But friends at work, politically liberal and anything but evangelical Christians, didn’t share my satisfaction. Their reaction disturbed me, and it sent me praying and digging through the Bible looking for support for my hard line justice view, I guess. But instead I was struck by verses like Matthew 5:44, compelling followers of Jesus to love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them.
It was exactly three months between McVeigh’s execution and the events of September 11. But it was a lot longer than three months from the time of 9/11 until I was finally willing to start praying for Bin Laden.
Iâm grieved when friends die apart from Christ. And increasingly, Iâm finding myself grieved by enemies who die apart from Him too.
FzxGkJssFrk says:
I feel like I need to say this: I’m glad he’s dead.
I do understand that the whole “yay that #@$%$& is finally being eaten by WORMS in BURNING TORMENT FOREVER LOLOL” tack is totally unseemly for a Christian. It’s right to criticize that attitude as wrong and unbiblical. We should never celebrate the addition of any soul to hell. I think it’s the religious aspect of some of the celebrating that bothers a lot of you, if I’m reading right. And I am not gloating over his death. Trying, anyway.
I confess that I’m a little baffled, though, by those who seem borderline upset that the U.S. military killed him, as if they were somehow unjustly denying him the opportunity to repent. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but hear me out.
Look, just because my sin makes me worthy of damnation apart from Christ every bit as much as bin Laden doesn’t mean at all that I deserve to be killed by a duly constituted government the same way bin Laden did. The man brutally murdered thousands of people in the name of a false god. He deserved military/criminal justice at the human scale as well as spiritual justice on the cosmic scale, and if the reports are true he was even given a final chance to surrender. His blood is on his own head.
There is certainly the lesson that while God gives us many chances to repent, those chances are not infinite.
I’m grateful that he no longer has the ability to destroy life and property or to incite others to commit themselves to hell in the services of a false god. These are good things.
Would I be happier if he had turned to Christ and used his God-given powers of inspiration and communication for the kingdom? Absolutely. Am I going to mourn like David for Absalom? No.
Opportunity for reflection: It does make me think about what I should be doing to help reach Muslims for Christ. I have to say I haven’t really done much if anything.
Tj says:
Wow. Quite a conversation going here.
I am shocked and saddened by the jubilant rejoicing, it reminds me so much of images from the middle east where the people chant against the USA. It doesn’t seem right when they do it and it doesn’t seem right when we do it.
I also struggle with the apparent goal of the mission which was to kill Osama, not capture for trial. I realize that assassinations have been going on for a long time, but to have it applauded is a bit difficult for me to stomach. More and more, I realize that the patriotism I feel is for this country might be a bit misguided. I still believe in what we were founded on and the freedoms we try to uphold, but the way we get there is often in direct contradiction to my faith as a Christian.
Kristie says:
A friend of mine posted this on his Facebook page this morning:
“As I live, says the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live.” Ezekiel 33:11
I understand the desire and longing for justice & retribution, but I find no delight in the death of this man who died without Christ.
Ericka Jackson says:
Amen. If America is considered to be a “Christian Nation”, then I’m afraid we aren’t being a very good example of CHRIST to the rest of the world with the way we’re responding to this. What happened to Matthew 5:44? “But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
Now don’t get me wrong, I am proud (and thankful) to be an American – I love our country and I support our troops! But I am a CHRISTIAN first. And I just can’t celebrate the death of any person! I understand that our military was doing their job, but do we have to throw a PARTY on the White House lawn because a man was killed?!? A man who was a husband and father? Don’t these people know that God knit Osama Bin Laden together in his mother’s womb? Don’t they know He had a plan for him too? After all, God gave him an amazing leadership gifting (that unfortunately he used for evil instead of good). He was God’s child too.
We despise terrorists because of their hateful acts… but I have seen so much hate spewing from the mouths (facebooks) of Christians in the past 24 hours. What a shame.
Janet Oberholtzer says:
Agree!!
It seems we become like the people we hate.
Celebrating when ‘they’ are killed and ‘justifying’ it with God’s name.
Lee says:
To all:
I have no problem saying “its my faith”. I won’t be in the streets dancing, but I won’t be up tonight losing sleep. Justice stinks sometimes.
Lee
Megan @ Faith Like Mustard says:
I know the verses that talk about God’s grace and mercy, but what should we do with this:
“The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.” Psalm 11:5
JessicaB says:
We should accept that that is a poem. đ
Michael Patterson says:
This is such a great discussion! I admit (and by reading the above posts, there appear to be very few of us), that my very first thoughts when I heard of Osama’s death was ‘YES!’ That said, I am not proud of it, and then I read your post and I have been mulling this over in my mind all day.
On 9/11 I arrived at my fire station for work, and found my coworkers sitting in front of the TV watching ‘a big fire in the World Trade Center.’ We didn’t know a plane had hit, but my first words were, “They are going to lose some firefighters today.” Over the coming weeks I worked extra shifts for my coworkers on the USAR (Urban Search & Rescue-the specialists who rescued Dan Woolley in Haiti) team could go search for people who were trapped. A year later I joined over 100,000 firefighters in Manhattan for a memorial for the FDNY firefighters.
My initial thoughts were that Osama got what he deserved. As I thought about it throughout the day I realized, that he got what I deserve, too!
Sharon O says:
I too received and have witnessed a strange and bizarre hatred. Yes we did not like the man his purposes or his vision. He was evil. But does that give us a reason to appear evil just because HE was? I don’t understand the ‘words’ either.
I am proud of our military people who risked their lives to take care ‘of him’ but I pause and say no more.
Sherry says:
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I may just be brave enough to share this. I have been saddened by the response of many of my fellow Christ-followers today.
amy in peru says:
i may not have put it the exact same way shaun, but i hear your heart… if God doesn’t rejoice when He is compelled to condemn the unrepentant… who then are we to do it?
killing one man doesn’t mean an end to terrorism, nor death to his kind of thinking, all hearts are desperately wicked apart from Christ… utterly rotten. each and every one of us needs the Savior every bit as much as he did.
what’s done is done and we will all be judged for the deeds done in the flesh. however, as we are ambassadors of reconciliation, ourselves forgiven much, i do find it difficult that we would rejoice when one of those we ought to be targeting with the Message of Life perishes…
amy in peru says:
that said, I do not condemn those soldiers who have put their lives on the line to protect the innocent…
war is a difficult thing.
Liz says:
“I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” – Martin Luther King, Jr.
shari brown says:
“I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” –Martin Luther King, Jr
shari brown says:
I choose love. I pray I can learn to love like Jesus does.
Jeff Yates says:
Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice, or the LORD will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from them. – Prov 24:17-18
Liz says:
Wrong attribution, i.e not a MLK quote, but still worth saying
Just Call Me Lynn says:
I do believe this is such a hard thing to come to terms with. I am so incredibly proud of and excited for our amazing military. However, I have always been saddened by the mentality and beliefs of this man. I can’t say that I rejoiced in his death, but I wasn’t saddened by it.
shari brown says:
(I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. -Jessica Dovey)
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that ~Dr. MLK Jr.
This is, from what I can find, a more accurate attribution of these quotes. Sorry for the misinformation, thanks for your grace.
Elijah Cross says:
For those playing the interpretation card, Ezekiel 33:11 is pretty clear…”…’As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live….”
Adam says:
I have been wrestling with this a lot as well. I am trying to be sensitive to those who lost friends/family during 9/11 and the war since as I say this…but why would we celebrate his death? I find myself relieved that he was found, that we “won” (whatever that means), and that this will deal a severe and crippling blow to our enemies (Al Qaeda)…I could even be a bit understanding of someone celebrating he died. I don’t personally, but I might understand it a little more than when I see my fellow believers celebrating and posting on social networks how glad that he will “burn in hell.” O my goodness, what have we become?
I know it is a sensitive issue, I know it is emotional, I know many people have strong ties and lost close loved ones…but as believers, have we become ok with the thought of anyone going to hell? Isn’t that what we all deserve? I don’t down play the evil that was wrought, However, can we forget that this man was brainwashed and raised to be what he was?
For those that do feel that closure, I am so glad that they have been freed from that weight. For those of us who have few to no ties and are believers and yet hit the streets in celebration…maybe we should look into ourselves and see what we are celebrating and why…
..And why it is ever ok to say with joy, “Burn in hell forever” to anyone…my heart breaks even writing it.
Angie says:
The push and pull of justice and mercy.
Only God is all knowing.
I’m thankful for our military and celebrate with them a job well done and long fought.
I find the celebrating in the streets an odd way to speak out over a tyrants death.
God is God and I am not. . .be thankful for that!
Shaun Groves says:
For me, this post wasn’t about whether killing Osama Bin Laden was just or morally right.
It was about whether laughing about and celebrating his eternal damnation is godly.
FzxGkJssFrk says:
Fair enough; agreed.
Rhonda says:
There is a lot of scripture posted here, but Shaun, when you posed the question, “What is this faith?”, the story I immediately thought of was Jonah.
And then as I read through the post and the comments my thoughts went to David – the one man in the Bible who is called “a man after God’s heart”. More than once his enemy was killed and his response was grief not rejoicing.
Melanie says:
I completely agree with your sentiments and appreciate the way that you gently but truthfully pointed this out… I feel the same…
One question, and this is truly not attacking you in any way, but did you verify that Chonda Pierce said the quote in your FB screenshot? I noticed all of the names from FB were blurred out, except hers. I checked her FB page and googled this quote and could not find where she said it. My concern is that IF (and I truly don’t know) she did NOT say this, people will just glance at the screenshot and form an opinion of Chonda Pierce (a prominant Christian woman and leader) without verifying IF she even said this quote….
Just my two cents… and thank you again for this post!
Blessings,
Melanie
Shaun Groves says:
Honestly, it was just an oversight by me. The status update in question – the one quoting Chonda – was posted by a on-air guy at a major Christian radio station. Don’t know where he got it. Maybe she called in? Don’t know.
Btw, all three examples I posted are from Facebook pages belonging to people working in Christian music.
Rick Orrell says:
Hadn’t seen this scripture quoted yet from Proverbs (seems to be one of the gardens people are harvesting for some of this thread…)
Proverbs 11:10 (NLT) – “The whole city celebrates when the godly succeed; they shout for joy when the wicked die.”
Just an alternate scripture to ponder……
Stephen says:
Rick, I’ve seen that verse quoted other places, and found Scott Baker’s response to one commenter here helpful:
I could nitpick and say that the Hebrew word in the Proverbs reference is actually only translatable as âshoutsâ and that appending âof gladnessâ is an interpretive choice, but I think itâs easier to just say:
Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice. â Proverbs 24:17
So do we trade Proverbs, or do we look to the ultimate interpretive lens for the Christian: the life and words of Christ? I would love for someone to try to use the life and words of Christ to defend cheering the death of a man or killing him at all.
I also found Scott’s post claiming that Toby Keith Did Not Write Romans quite good.
Nancy Benavides says:
Amen and thank you for that.
James Poteet II says:
Proverbs 11:10 KJV When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting
You’re right, this is not your faith. This is the faith of the Bible. We serve a God who loves all his children and hates the wicked. And yet he died to save the wicked. He will, according to the New Testament by the way, condemn all sinners to burn in eternal torment. At feast days we will look down on those sinners burning in hell. If this is not your faith, then repent and turn to the Living God.
jenn says:
I kept silent (especially on facebook) about this subject for these exact reasons. I support our military, but I didn’t feel that it was right to celebrate someone’s death. Is it good that he’s dead? I don’t know really… maybe. But I don’t think we should celebrate it, or at least I won’t be.