Shaun Groves
Do I believe in hell?
Wrong question.
Did Jesus believe in hell?
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as you are.
Matthew 23:33
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell (Gehenna)?
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell (Gehenna), where the fire never goes out.
Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell (Gehenna).
Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna)…
Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell (Gehenna). Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Nicole @ Here's The Diehl says:
AMEN. Love this.
Bill says:
Is Ghandi in Hell?
Bill says:
Did Jesus create Hell as a place to eternally punish the souls of those who don’t believe in him?
Dakota L. says:
Bill,
Matthew 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. It was not originally intended for mankind, but since we took part in Satan’s rebellion we must also take part in his punishment; that is, unless we are saved through the atoning blood of Christ.
As for your other question, God is the judge of such things (2 Timothy 4:1). Let us not try and usurp His authority by taking it into our own hands.
Caroline says:
This is what we need more of: The WORD. If we are constantly in the WORD and checking our ideas against the WORD, the Spirit will do the work in us to reveal where we must bend our wills to Truth.
Paul Steinbrueck says:
A couple of years ago I read Notes from the Tilt-a-Whirl by N.D. Wilson, and he totally rocked my my understanding of hell. I wrote about it in this post:
How can a loving God send people to Hell? http://bit.ly/3wYKcE
Shaun, I’d love to hear what you and others think of it.
Jenn says:
Paul, I read his book recently and I really appreciated his perspective on Hell. His writing made me think more deliberately about what I believe and what the Bible teaches on Hell.
Paul Steinbrueck says:
That’s cool, Jenn. Thanks for letting me know.
Scott says:
@shaun: awesome. very. awesome.
@paul: do you get a commission on that book? (kidding) your post makes me want to get a copy and read through that. great thoughts.
…and yes, some people *do* choose to listen to country music.. 😀
Bill says:
Thanks Dakota, but that begs the question, “Who is saved throught the atoning blood of Christ?”
Let’s assume Ghandi never said the sinner’s prayer or accepted Jesus as his personal savior. There is no evidence that he did either. So is he in Hell?
Did Jesus come, die and rise to save some, but not all? Is our God (who we know be incarnate as Love itself) someone from whom we must be rescued? And is that rescue dependent in large part upon where and when you were born?
I’ll admit that I find this rush of Christians, anxious to proclaim their belief in Hell, disturbing.
As Christ followers we love our neighbors as ourselves. We love our enemies and wish them well. We forgive any who trespass against us.
Are we to believe that the God we worship is less loving and forgiving than he commands us to be?
Sometimes I get the impression some folks will be disappointed if some of our brothers and sisters don’t end up in Hell. Shouldn’t we at least hope and ferverently pray that there is no Hell?
Does believing that the character of God is inconsistent with the concept of Hell make one a bad person? Will such a person, who loves God so much that he considers the concept of Hell (at least Dante’s version) a slander on his name, end up in Hell himself–because he chose not to believe that Hell is compatible with God?
Anyway, I’ll leave this to the Hellophiles. I’m done .
Love Wins.
Zoë says:
‘Sometimes I get the impression some folks will be disappointed if some of our brothers and sisters don’t end up in Hell.’
LOL Quite! Sometimes I wonder who people think they are . . . God?
Personally, I agree Jesus speaks of hell, but I also know he tells me it is not my place to judge. Only thing I am to do is to love my neighbour as myself and love God with all my heart. That’s tricky enough to begin with; I can’t be worrying about how God goes about his judgement. That’s his business.
sara varghese says:
I liked it Paul. I will say though, some DON’T choose those things. Since I didn’t see any scripture, Romans 1 is a good reference. Ghandi chose hell, Bill, if he’s there.
On another note. We can’t forget about the Justice of God. It’s the reason why the oppressed have hope, the abused, the battered, the war torn, the afflicted. It’s only people living cushy lives that say that God can’t be just. It’s not fair.
There is a standard that we fail. God’s standard. It never changes. I praise the Lord, He is just, and He laid the punishment on someone else besides me…..Christ.
Don’t minimize what Christ did. He paid it all. We all have equal opportunity to come to Him.
sara varghese says:
sorry……it’s about who has the Justice button, and there are stiff qualifications for that. Omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience. He knows people better than we do. So glad Hitler didn’t have the Justice button or Po, or my next door neighbor who lets their dog crap in my yard.
Either we trust that God is just or we don’t. “I trust you God if you let Ghandi go to heaven” doesn’t work, that’s not trust. God tells us that He is Just, and also Love, and that He is Longsuffering and Righteous. We line ourselves up with unbelievers if we put ultimatums on that. We’re essentially an unbeliever.
William Guice says:
so did Jesus believe in our hell or the trash heap out side of the Jerusalem city wall where fires were constantly burning and rubbish was filled with maggots & worms?
btw, not sure how but i have totally missed your non-violence series. I’m going to go back to the beginning & work through them…
and, you should buy me mexican soon.
Adam Shields says:
Jesus referenced Gehenna. That is not the same thing as believing in a place of eternal torment where people are apart from God for eternity in suffering.
Jesus referenced Jonah as well. But we don’t know from the reference whether Jesus referenced him as a literary figure that we all know (like someone referencing Moby Dick in a sermon) or as a historical figure that was actually in the belly of a fish for 3 days.
A reference is not the same as a belief. And even if the belief was there, the purpose and length of hell is not defined in Jesus’ references. It is a reference and we cannot put more weight into it than what Jesus did. Jesus also referenced hell as a place that could be looked into and talked between from heaven. There has to be more to the discussion than just the fact that Jesus referenced hell.
shayne says:
In Mark chapter 9, Jesus makes reference to a fire that is never quenched and where “their worm dieth not.”
Doesn’t sound like a trash heap to me.
euphrony says:
Actually, yeah it does. Even in modern trash dumps, fires are a big problem as material decomposes producing methane gas and lots of heat. A place like Gehenna, a trash dump outside Jerusalem, would be filled with fires auto-igniting from decomposition. And, yeah, lots of maggots, too.
I’m not trying to say that hell is or isn’t a place for the punishment of sinners, but trying to put a real picture to the words used by Jesus (quoting Isaiah).
Williiam Guice says:
Hey Shayne,
Let me start here: I believe in a real hell but I do not believe tha the Gehenna passages speak of it.
We know from extra Biblical writing that like Euphrony says the place (trash heap…formerly a pagan worship/sacrafice area was filled with worms & because the stench was so bad & it was so close to the city they always kept fires burning as to control the smell)
There was also the presence of wild scavenging animals, mostly dogs, that often fought for food…thus the idea of gnashing teeth as they rammed their mouths against each other. Don’t know if you ever seen a real dog fight but it’s pretty horrible and horrible sounding.
Jesus speaks of & points a literal very real place that all of these people knew of. So the question is if he is saying they are or should be or will be “over there” in the stinky, burning, nasty place…what does that mean to those who heard it?
shayne says:
Hey Will and Euphrony,
Thanks for your thoughts. There wasn’t a “reply” option available for your comments, so I’m in essence replying to myself.
Which I confess, I do quite a lot. 🙂
I’m thinking on what you’ve said…not sure I agree, but I am thinking and will definitely be studying this more as the issue comes more to the forefront when Rob Bell’s book comes out.
euphrony says:
You know, Shayne, I’m not sure I agree, either. There is so much mystery surrounding the time after we shuffle off this mortal coil, which God has given us a glimpse of but not full understanding. Most likely, it is beyond our true comprehension but to assuage our fears He gives a few hints.
My comments later in the thread basically stand on the thought of what does it really matter what hell is like or if it exists. Living without God means death. Period. Living with God means life. Forever.
The theology of hell in Christian churches for many centuries has been a scare tactic. You don’t want to go there, so you better get right with God. It’s ironic that if we were to get a confession out of a prisoner through the threat of torture that confession would be considered invalid, made under duress and meaningless. But Christians have used the same tactic to evoke repentance from sinners for centuries. Is a scared confession of God’s deity the same as loving God? I tend to think not.
Not to say that a love response to God cannot grow from such a place (it did with me, after a fashion). But is it not a better way to draw people to love God and desire His presence than to lead them in fear of death? For me, I find it a much better conversation to have.
Erin says:
Thank you for guiding us to ask the RIGHT question(s).
Bernard Shuford says:
Is it okay for me to admit that I don’t KNOW? It’s frightening to me to confront myself with the idea that if someone doesn’t believe in hell, that probably means they’re going there. To follow that logic, if someone does believe in hell, that would mean they’re not going there. No, we don’t believe that either, do we. Because we say that it doesn’t matter what they believe, hell is still real.
Yet, our very message as Christians is that believing in Christ as our Saviour is what keeps us from going to hell.
So, it DOES matter what we believe.
Wow.
The idea of saying that there is no hell, or that there might not be, is admittedly terrifying to me because of the implications of said mistake.
Many people conclude that if Rob says there is no hell, he is automatically going there.
Tricky logic.
Kelli says:
Well done. No need to try and explain when Christ did so already. Thanks!
kit says:
That picture on your post creeps me out!
Interesting topic/discussion. I have some good friends who recently chose family over Christ and turned their backs on God because they can’t stand the idea that one of their loved ones is probably in hell. I really have no idea what to tell them, it’s not something any of us like to think about.
shayne says:
I think the root of this issue are 2 main questions that mankind has been asking since the beginning.
Is God good? Can He be trusted?
If hell does not exist…then what was the point of the Law? Why have it at all if God is love and is just going to forgive everything anyway?
What was the point of Jesus’ life and crucifixion? Why does He talk about being the fulfillment of the Law? If it’s all love, love, love…why is there a need to fulfill the Law?
Don’t get me wrong…God is love. But love doesn’t mean getting what you want all the time. Justice is part of love and so is discipline.
And yes…love does win. The existence of hell does not nullify love at all.
Adam Shields says:
There are consequences to sin apart from hell. I am not saying there is not a hell. But requiring an evil in order to have a good is dualism, not Christianity.
shayne says:
I don’t think my questions are about duality, and no where did I state that Jesus exists because evil does.
Jesus’ existence is not dependent upon evil…He existed before all of that…which I think we agree on.
But the Law was put in place for a reason…Jesus’ life and death on earth was for a reason, and I don’t think it was because God simply wanted us to live “good” lives. The bible calls our “good” and “righteousness” filthy rags.
So a better sacrifice was required. But to what purpose? That is what I’m asking.
Alex Green says:
I was going to copy a post of my own in here re ‘filthy rags’ but it was too long, so here is a link if that’s ok with Shaun? http://unconsciousstreaming.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/filthy-rags/
shayne says:
Hi Alex,
I read your post and I appreciate your thoughts.
I haven’t thought of the filthy rags meaning unfulfilled potential.
I know that when that time comes around each month for me, that’s not what I’m thinking at all. Usually it’s just “ew, gross.”
Also, I wonder if you’ve considered the ceremonial laws where this is concerned, given that the reference is from Isaiah. A woman has no control over this…so why would she be considered ceremonial unclean? Is it because it reminded God of the fall?
And wouldn’t Isaiah have been fully aware of these laws when he spoke those words? Is it possible that it’s more than simply unfulfulled potential?
Alex Green says:
Thanks for the reply, I have gone into it more in a ‘part 2’ but it is a bit off-topic here!
I’d love to discuss it over at my blog if you want to post some of your thoughts.
euphrony says:
Shaun, you’re right that there are better questions than “what I believe”.
As an argumentative question, is there a need in theology for a concept of hell in order to provide punishment for the wicked? No, seriously?
We read that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Right there you have punishment and reward, without lakes of fires and eternal torture.
For those who love God, who follow Him and seek His will and grace and forgiveness, there is a glorious reward – we actually get to be in His presence for eternity! Wow! What better thing to be given than to be with the one you love more than any other, who loves you more than we can understand, forever!
For those who do not seek God’s favor, who follow their own selfish path, or believe themselves to be complete without Him, there is death. And, in death, a total, complete, eternal separation from God; perhaps even knowing what you missed out on before nothingness and oblivion. You are gone, forgotten, meaningless, and separated from God. Ouch.
No, I personally don’t know if there is a “hell” as has been most often preached over the centuries, or if that concept is a Hellenization and corruption of God’s words. But, it also doesn’t matter – not worth arguing over. If I die and go to hell to burn for eternity, I still can think of no worse punishment than to look across that insurmountable gulf betwixt heaven and hell and know that I will never, ever, enjoy the presence of the Creator of all (a la the parable of the rich man and Lazarus).
FzxGkJssFrk says:
So the arguments against an actual hell fall into two camps: 1) From first principles, I can’t imagine that God would possibly do that, or 2) The Bible can’t possibly mean what it consistently and plainly says. (which ultimately follows from #1, so maybe it’s a single camp after all.)
Oo-kay. I think Shaun’s post said it all.
(So why am I commenting?)
…
Laura Krokos says:
Yes!! Thank you Shaun! Truth needs to be spoken, even if it’s hard to say and hard to hear.
Penn Gillette even said once when someone gave him a Bible, “How much do you have to hate someone to not tell them about Jesus if you think they are going to hell.” Even from athiest Penn’s point of view telling people about hell and Jesus’ offer of forgiveness is compassionate.
Pretending or decieving people by saying a loving God would not send people to hell is not compassionate… how much do you have to hate someone to decieve them like that?
Cathy says:
That video of Penn when he said that was like a slap in the face. One of our pastors shared it in a sermon titled “Go To Hell”. He stood on the stage with a picket sign with that written on it and your comment here was the jist of that sermon.
I think you summed up this whole discussion perfectly!
Angi says:
YES! Way to preach truth!!!!
It really doesn’t matter what we think it only matters what Jesus thinks. Thank you!!
Jonathan Blundell says:
Not to argue for or against, but I’ve been wondering lately…
I’m interested to know what the Hebrew (and even Roman) thought of the day was in regards to a literal hell.
When Jesus spoke these words, he seems to have specifically used the word Gehenna – the name of a burning trash pile outside the city walls of Jerusalem.
Perhaps “hell on earth?”
When Jesus mentioned Gehenna numerous times, I wonder if the disciples instantly thought, “Oh yes… Gehenna, that’s code for hell, where all the bad people go.” Or did they think of the trash heap outside the walls of the city?
I wonder what term Jesus would use today.
Sudan? Darfur? Death camps? Auschwitz? The Dallas City Dump? The Great Pacific Garbage Patch?
It also seems interesting that in a number of these references, Jesus seems to suggest that something or someone is going to be tossed aside into Gehenna. Perhaps, “You will be tossed out like the garbage?”
I don’t know. But more things for me to chew on.
Ray says:
I think alot of this discussion surrounding the justice of God comes down to defining our terms. Just what does “justice” mean? Is God’s justice punitive or restorative? In other words, is justice about making sure evil people “get theirs”, or is it about the restoration of all things? Does justice have to do with making things right, or making sure the punishment fits the crime? Is it just to be exquisitely tortured for ions and ions without hope of redemption only to realize that you have only begun your suffering? If God is omni-present how can He witness the agony and torture of the majority of those made in His image for all of eternity? If all things are “upheld by the word of His power” why would God continue to keep someone in existence for the sole purpose of perpetual suffering without hope of redemption? Does this picture of God look like Jesus?
These are the questions I ask myself. I am bothered by the number of people that don’t seem to struggle with the idea of eternal conscious suffering. The Bible says that God’s anger “endures but a moment” but His “lovingkindness (mercy) endures forever”. How do we hold this in tension with the idea of hell?
Alex Green says:
Amen, very eloquently put!
Alex Green says:
Steve Chalke has some interesting stuff to say on this if you have a few minutes to listen http://www.church.co.uk/downloads/ccu_sun_100314.mp3
Lisa Smith @stretchmarkmama says:
Matthew 5:29
“If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (Gehenna).”
So how is it that we take the hell part of this verse literally but not the part about the gouging?
This is why I’m glad there is someone questioning what we’ve always said to be true about hell. Maybe we’re wrong.
Jason Rust says:
I think he meant that Hell is so bad, that it’s better for you to gouge out your eye than for your whole body be thrown into hell.
Sarah Mae says:
Honestly, I still don’t get it.
I thought I did.
But hell…I read this:
“And I saw the dead, the (A)great and the small, standing before the throne, and (B)books were opened; and another book was opened, which is (C)the book of life; and the dead (D)were judged from the things which were written in the books, (E)according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and (F)death and Hades (G)gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them (H)according to their deeds.
14Then (I)death and Hades were thrown into (J)the lake of fire This is the (K)second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in (L)the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
And I think, is there really eternal punishment for those condemned or do they die in a lake of fire?
Is the eternal punishment for Satan and his demons only?
It’s weird to even write these things because ever since I became a Christian (over 10 years ago) I have believed in the doctrine of hell – eternal damnation for those who do not believe in Jesus.
But sometimes, I wonder what “hell” really is.
euphrony says:
All I can say is, very good questions. Basically along the same lines I’ve asked myself for years. Never be afraid of questions, as long as you leave your heart open for God’s answer.
Jason Rust says:
I think your scripture is good Shaun. I would also add
[45] Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ [46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:45-46 ESV)
I also think it is worth considering the parallel statements (for those that are Universalists..maybe not so much for whether Hell is eternal or not):
[3] Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
(John 3:3 ESV)
[5] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(John 3:5 ESV)
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
(John 3:16-18 ESV)
[Edited by moderator]
Kathy says:
Something my pastor says, very much in my paraphrase & understanding, is that God loves us more than we can know or imagine. Because of this great love, He gave us free will and at the end of our lives, He allows us exactly what it is that we have CHOSEN to do: we either get to be with Him, or live without Him (eternally removed from God, hell). It’s OUR CHOICE that God is honoring, not sending us away as punishment, He allows us our expressed desires, because He loves us. We get to live with the consequences. Our choice.
Meredith Dunn says:
Saw this tweet from David Platt a recently.
“When men talk of a little hell, it is b/c they think they have only a little sin, & believe in a little Savior.” ~ Spurgeon.
May we never dilute our depravity or dependency on Jesus because we think hell isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Sarah Mae says:
I think that is a very true quote. I can’t wrap my mind around hell, but I don’t have to. I just need to trust in my faithful God; He knows and I don’t.
Beewest2000 says:
Thanks, Shaun… Many dear friends, (and some family members) have recently adopted the belief that hell (at least as we thought of it) doesn’t really exist. I was going to go through my Bible and find all the scriptures that talk about hell…. You just saved me a bunch of work…. Thanks!
Amber says:
This is a TIMELY and oh-so important post. I am super thankful that you didn’t give “your” view point on it, but rather took it home where it belonged, Str8 to the WORD.
Love it. Love it. Love it.
I recently blogged about how it’s too easy for Christians to take an author at “their” word, (as though it’s the bible truth.)
My passion was to explain how we have GOT to do our homework and reference THE Truth alongside the author.
Thanks for this!! Do you mind if I copy and paste into my blog, making sure to credit you as the author, alongside adding a link to your blog?
Ray says:
Shaun,
I don’t think asking if WE believe in hell is the wrong question at all. At the end of the day none of us completely governs our lives by what Jesus says, but rather by what we think He says. I believe that quoting Jesus’ words as a short answer to the question of hell is too simplistic. You referenced the fact that the word Gehenna is the original word from which we translate “hell”. I think it is very important for us to understand what Jesus’ listeners would have heard when this word was referenced. Simply saying “the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it” is just not enough for me. The truth is we are ALL interpreters so it’s important that we make sure that we are faithful in doing so and not just parrotting what we have always heard. All of us as believers are living our lives not by Scripture, but rather by our interpretations of it. Therefore, I think it’s pretty important what WE believe. Thanks for the opportunity to put my 2 cents in! 🙂
Brad says:
My pastor taught on this yesterday… He touches on Gehenna as well. It was an incredible message with a lot of insight. To sum it up…
Many struggle with the question, Is hell real and if God is love, how can he send someone there for eternity? But, when we compare the magnitude of his holiness to the magnitude of our sin, the real question should be; How does such a perfect, holy, and just God allow anyone into heaven? The answer… God doesn’t send anybody to hell, we literally have to walk over his dead body to get there.
Brad says:
Here is the podcast… Titled “IS Hell Fair”
http://www.bridgesh.com/2011/03/question-8-the-problem-of-evil/