Shaun Groves
I like the folks at Catalyst, the church leadership org hosting a conference this week in Atlanta. I did an event with them in California not long ago, I read their blog, I’m impressed by their generous support of Compassion International. I like Catalyst. But Catalyst is missing something. All the major church leadership type conferences are. They’re missing Andy.
Andy is my pastor. There are a lot of Andys
Andy is not cool: He’s not even slightly metrosexual. To Andy, Diesel is an engine not a pair of jeans. He has never worn a faux-hawk. He has never and would never wear a man purse. He doesn’t listen to Wilco or Pedro The Lion. He drives a truck, not a Hummer. His phone is a silver brick running Windows.
Andy is not tech-savvy: He does not Twitter, Youtube, Vimeo, podcast, blog, multicast, live stream, or vlog.
Andy is not famous: He doesn’t have a book deal. He doesn’t know Donald Miller. He doesn’t do speaking tours with gigantic whiteboards. (Which is also cool.) This year he won’t be on stage at Willow Creek, or Story, or Catalyst or…
The cool, tech-savvy, famous pastors will. And that’s good. But is it great for Andy?
The average guy in the seats at these events is a lot more like Andy than Stanley. Nothing against Stanley…or Rob, Steven, Craig or Mark. I like these guys – I really really do. But, speaking of Mark, according to him (pg. 29), Andy is more the norm than they are. Mark says that 98% of American churches are made up of less than 800 people, 95% are less than 500 people, 75% are less than 150 people, 50% are less than 75 people.
It’s not just church size Andy doesn’t have in common with these guys. The speaker guys aren’t pastoring a church in semi-rural Tennessee in 2009 during a recession, meeting in a school cafeteria, without video producers, service producers, teaching pastors, sermon writers, a six figure income, a multi-million dollar budget, multiple campuses, and maybe even a helicopter.
With so little in common, how much of what these speakers have to say can Andy really put into practice in his not-cool-not-tech-savvy-not-famous life pastoring a very different kind of church? I don’t know. But here are a few reasonable wants up for discussion:
- I don’t want the Andys of the world to leave a conference loving how God made some speaker guy so much that they stop loving and marveling at and being grateful for how God made them.
- I don’t want the Andys to love some speaker guy’s church so much that they stop loving their own. How many guys have developed ulcers and butchered community by trying to create the church they want to lead out of the church they have been given to lead?
- I want Andy to have the opportunity to learn from both the speaker guys and the other Andies in the world. I want him to learn from people who have the same struggles, methods, successes, budget, staff, and congregation he has.
- I want the speaker guys to learn from each other and Andy. I was talking with a prominent pastor/speaker about my work with Compassion once and he expressed his disinterest in it all by saying, “I’ve never been much of a missions guy.” He outsourced missions to a “missions pastor” and is missing out on the joys and challenges of thinking and living missionally/globally. I’d love that guy to spend a few minutes with Andy.
Catalyst and all the other leadership conferences hosting big-name speakers are doing good work. No doubt. But is it great for Andy?
How can he learn from and be inspired by other pastors ministering in a town and church like his, to people like his neighbors?
How and when do the guys doing all the teaching right now learn from everyone else?
These are questions I know the folks at Catalyst are asking. Have you got answers?
Jason says:
Can you clarify something please?
“One of Catalyst’s speakers replied to me once, “I’ve never been much of a missions guy.” Is there any other kind? I don’t think so.”
What was the context of that? For example, I’ve never felt called to foreign mission work at all. I’ve felt led to help with ministry efforts in my community and region but never felt led to go to Bolivia to build a church. It’s not that I’m saying it shouldn’t be done or God can’t put it on someone’s heart or that I wouldn’t even help them financially or another way…but I haven’t felt led to go and do that mission.
Most churches I’ve been in define “missions” as things outside the borders of the US or the borders of their community that are “missionary work.” So if that was the context, I think he might not be that wrong depending on what else he does.
Sorry to be confused. 🙂
Shaun Groves says:
Gotcha. Let me scurry off and rewrite that to add a little context.
Jason says:
Thanks for that. I’m with you on that now…even if you don’t feel led to be a part of one particular ministry (like Compassion) there HAS to be a “mission” out there for which God has gifted you to serve others.
benstewart says:
It’s funny that that line jumped out to you first. That’s the line that got me, too. But it’s because throughout college we would have missionaries visit and talk to us about traveling overseas to do foreign missions. One guy even said he felt like every Christian should do foreign mission work. I remember thinking about all of the work that still needs to be done locally and telling myself that I just wasn’t that into foreign missions… it wasn’t my calling. So, I can relate to where this pastor is coming from (or at least I assume he feels similarly).
Ironically, now I work with Shaun helping spread the mission of Compassion and all of their work overseas. So, while I still don’t live overseas, a large part of my life is spent helping foreign mission work happen.
So, I guess it was my perspective that changed. I thought that foreign mission work meant I had to move somewhere else. I also thought I had to choose one or the other. Now I see that I can live here–though I do want to take a few trips overseas–and I can help minister to the Church in America and at the same time help the Church throughout the rest of the world.
My 2¢
DK Snyder says:
Shaun,
I first saw you (and heard your heart) at “A Night at Rocketown” at GMA in like 2000. Since that time I have really enjoyed watching the trip God has been taking you on, and where he has been leading you and what He’s been doing in your art and life (from a distance of course). And much of what you write and say echo me in SO many ways. But this is probably the most impacting thing I’ve read. I don’t know why, I think it just is resonating with me, and the students I shepherd, and where I am as a Pastor in my life right now.
That was a really long way of saying “thank you”.
DK
Kevin Riner says:
Shaun, I really love the way you think. I wished I could put my heart into words the way you do but I always come off so brash. I’m working on that though. Keep up the great work. I love reading your stuff. And I will really be glad if you ever start recording again!
Kristie says:
Brother Groves, you are on a roll this week! This e-mail redeems everything that was lost in your lack of appreciation for the awesomeness of stackable coupons!
This is a long answer to your question–but–What does Andy do? In my humble opinion, Andy needs to meet Jimmy!
Jimmy is my pastor.
This comment was deleted because it was too long. Get to the point in less than 2,000 words, please. – The Man
Danae Lehman says:
I love this …thanks for sharing
suzie stogner says:
What about all the “Suzie’s” out there …doing ministry in the dirty places while supporting themselves by substitute teaching…love the blog, but here is a shout out to all the women in ministry that NEVER get recognition!
Your pal Rev suzie!
Shaun Groves says:
Have you seen The Nines, Suzie? http://thenines.leadnet.org/
75 church leaders speaking for nine minutes (or less) to church leaders on video. Lots of women. I was pleasantly surprised.
suzie stogner says:
love u shaun
Sarah says:
Agreed.
There seems to be a disconnect between churches within the same community. There are “pastoral network” meetings, but churches rarely collaborate with each other. Conferences can be a wonderful breath of fresh air and I attend them when I can, but a potentially even more sustainable effort in encouraging our church leaders may be to organize local events that serve to encourage, equip, and connect.
Shaun Groves says:
What conferences do you go to, and do they offer some kind of peer-to-peer connections that last beyond the length of the conference?
Sarah says:
My budget limits me to going to what is held in Dallas (and as a new law student while maintaining my full-time social work job I am even more limited). I really like the Fusion conference – it has “headliners” such as Donald Miller and Francis Chan and Anne Jackson, but the breakout session are with local church and ministry leaders. It’s a way to connect for a more lasting ministry relationship.
The kind of “conference” I’m envisioning I don’t think exists, though. I would love to see the churches in my community come together more (which we are attempting to accomplish through a nonprofit outreach we recently started) to collaborate in ministries and learn from each other. Conferences are wonderful, but like camp, still leaves you with an nice experience instead of lasting change (generally).
Dawn Carter says:
Sarah:
Great reply to an awesome post.
I found the same longing in my heart as well… to see local churches learn from each other at a conference. Not just listen to the “talking heads” up front, but to hear the wisdom & experience in the room.
This is why I love the IdeaCamp concept. This is why I’ve attended 2 and am now helping organize the 3rd one… because of the exact desire to collaborate and learn from regular folks.
Jonathan Blundell says:
Shaun,
Be sure and check out The Idea Camp (www.theideacamp.com). They’ve had two un-conferences already and are prepping for their third in November.
Absolute greatness!
Not only is it free – its a dialog with everyone there.
And if you can’t make it — you can participate and watch online — for free!
Follow @theideacamp and/or @charlestlee on Twitter for more info.
Stretch Mark Mama says:
I’m headed to Idea Camp PNW at the end of November–really looking forward to it. (See http://theideacamp.eventbrite.com/) The more I think about collaboration across many lines, the more excited I get. And it’s free. And ‘hyperlocal.’
MamasBoy says:
No answers on this end, but I really like your thoughts/questions.
MamasBoy says:
Question for anybody. Do pastors ever get away for more contemplative retreats with more down to earth speakers, or has the pastor retreat industry become just that, and industry that relies on big names to boost their attendance? It seems like this is something that regional denominations would be good at putting on, since their pools of speakers and attendees would be on average less of the superstar variety.
Kenyon says:
I love Catalyst. Been many times. It’s like church camp for adults. But I also love our local missions mobilizers network that meets once a month. I love our denominational “get-togethers” where we just talk shop and hang out and catch up. It’s happening. Maybe not often enough. Maybe not always with the right intentions.
Texas in Africa says:
I’ve never really understood why we need noisy, fancy conferences to know what God is calling us to do.
Jill says:
yeah, i like this!!
Gabe Taviano says:
Great post Shaun. To me, all that’s missing from Catalyst is the red carpet. If they can get that in for 2010, perhaps Hollywood will think the church has finally caught up?
All jokes aside, I also like many of the people there. But not relating to most of the country has to stop sometime. A conference my friend Charles Hill started last year, http://www.thesticks.tv, took reaching rural American ministry leaders very seriously.
And with all of the technology going, I’m putting lots of effort into (FREE) frequent local monthly gatherings. More relationship building / discipleship – less high peak / church camp experiences. More info at http://www.DigitalDisciples.net.
Sorry for the links – but I agree that God’s ready to do some serious work through those of us that have stained carpet.
karen says:
Glad you mentioned The Sticks, Gabe. I couldn’t quite get the name of it right, but I knew it was out there.
Ron Edmondson says:
Gabe, I love the phrase “stained carpet”. That’s my world.
Great post Shaun
Marla Taviano says:
I don’t have any answers right off the bat, Shaun. But I really, really appreciated this post.
I’m not a pastor, but I’m an author/speaker, and it’s so easy to get caught up in, “I’ve got to be BIG and FLASHY and POPULAR and be seen with the right people!” I lose my focus–reaching people for Christ, meeting their needs, helping the poor and lost and hurting.
Gabe up there is my husband, and I can testify that this is a huge passion of his. He has a heart for the underdog, the overlooked, the underprivileged. He wants to HELP THEM, not just “build his ministry.”
I love, love, love what you do with Compassion, and I’m praying God has that kind of missions work for me and my family in the near future. In the meantime, I’m trying to be faithful in what He’s called me to do.
Thanks so much for this post.
Jimmy Spencer says:
I am so down with this thought.
I run a NPO called Love Without Agenda- and we work hard to connect social innovators- and I’ll be dead honest here…
As a christian leader- I really find few other leaders interested in collaborating for the common good…
just being honest…we’re all so busy empire building and sometimes I’m at fualt to- now slowing down and collaborating
I so want to influence and catalyze others– spreading an important message- but I could do without the all the stuff that goes with it.
I have a book coming out on consumerism and and how it garbles the message of Jesus
1) thats what we see going on here I think- its Christianity with a heavy dose of consumer mindset
2) I am giving away my book in digital form-and had publishers wanting to publish it- but wouldnt let us give it away digitally…just refused. So we’re going the independent publishing route.
I dont have all the answers- and I know people aren’t bad hearted- we’re only doing what we grew up thinking is right..but we’re just missing the mark.
We dont really catalyze people who pattern their life after jesus- and I thought that was the whole point of our lives.
just some thoughts 🙂
Andy says:
Shaun,
What a great, great post. So clearly sums up the absolutely right questions to be asking.
Thanks for taking the time to put this out there.
Gosh . . . Just a lot to think about.
Jennifer Atkins says:
I do like this post and love the recognition of all of the Andys.
But…my husband (who doesn’t wear diesel…just the one pair of jeans he owns, who drives a minivan and is definitely not even close to metrosexual) is at Catalyst and he loves it. For him it is more about an amazing time of worship, encouragement and refreshment that he needs! He comes home full of vision, ideas and excitement for our little ministry here. This has never led to discontentment with the ministry he leads or feeling like we should try and “copy” these big time guys with our little budget.
I have heard little bits and pieces from this conference. I heard they had a Compassion child, whose parents died, meet their sponser….who has supported them the whole time. And it was powerful….and I’m not sure how those moments are not inspiring for all Andys out there.
I think Catalyst is what you make of it. Like most things in life it could lead to discontentment if you allow it. Or it could be a time to be encouraged and refreshed. Just because someone presents in a trendy fashion does not mean that he does not have truth to speak into your life. God’s Word is God’s Word. It is applicable for Andys from all walks of life.
That being said….I’m sure Catalyst is not for every “Andy” out there. But I think it’s unfair to say it’s not great for all Andys out there. I am married to one and know that God has used this conference to refocus His heart and lift his spirit. And I am so grateful!
Shaun Groves says:
So good to hear the good your husband is getting from Catalyst. Like I said, I like Catalyst and the folks heading it up. A LOT of good comes out of it and conferences like it. But, I wonder if your husband would agree, it’s missing something: In addition to learning from the big named preachers, the Andys could use some support, understanding, pushing, teaching from peers.
THAT’S the point of this post: Don’t stop Catalyst! (Heck no!) but add to it, or figure out OTHER places/ways for us to connect with peers in our almost-exact situations.
Sarah says:
Great thoughts, Shaun. We need your perspective represented.
Chuck says:
what about the worship leader who could teach what it’s like to unload that mobile setup everyweek, that has to scrape and pull together enough money just to make sure that sound and video work, if they have any? it’s amazing that there are godly, worship soaked men and women who are anointed and gifted who will never be given the opportunity to share their gifts because they are in a small church somewhere or they don’t have an album that’s number 4 on itunes. that’s not bitter talk, i love the “lead worshippers” who are bringing amazing music, but i also know many of my friends who are amazing that will never be asked for their expertise. thanks Shaun. great post.
Catherine says:
Have you heard of John Koessler? He has some interesting articles on the small Church ministry.
http://www.johnkoessler.com
Thanks for the thoughtful insight. My son went to Catalyst 2009 ATL and was impressed but disappointed to say the least with the Tattooing on stage. Many believers have a problem with tattooing, why would one do something like that and cause fellow believers to stumble?
Shaun Groves says:
“Stumble” doesn’t mean “offend.”
I wasn’t there so I can’t say why they did that. But I wouldn’t have a problem with it and wouldn’t have thought someone at Catalyst would. Southern Baptist Convention? Yes. Catalyst? I’m surprised.
Thanks for the link! I’ll check it out for sure.
Catherine says:
Praise God for the Baptist! Looks like I need to become one…tee, hee, hee!!!
Maureen Kelley Small says:
Thank you, thank you, thank you for asking the questions I’ve struggled with every time I’ve gone to a conference!
Zack says:
Great post, Shaun.
As a former youth pastor of a small, rural church body with less than 100 folks and a very small budget, I really resonate with the sentiment here.
I don’t have any answers worth wrestling out in some blog comments, but I thought you might get a chuckle out of my campus pastor’s description of Catalyst (and this is from a blog post encouraging people to support Lanny Donoho, our pastor’s friend and the host of Catalyst, just for context):
“Catalyst is… a big-deal gathering of thousands of leaders who get together annually to groom their goatees and compare fashion tips about shirts with embroidered dragons on them.”
Emily says:
Our group just got back from Catalyst, and we talked about the lack of opportunities for reflection or sharing. It’s a LOT of stuff crammed into a few days. If you’re looking for local networking or time to get-away and contemplate, Catalyst isn’t really the place.
As for the tattooing, the fashion tips, and the other jabs- well, we counted faux-hawks all weekend. There were definitely guys who gelled them up for Catalyst that had never sported one before! But there was also a collection of the most diverse, authentic people you would ever see gathered for a Christian conference- ages, genders, styles, ethnicities, political leanings, everything…
While there were a lot of “big” names, there was also a lot of talk about not comparing ministries or just trying to be bigger or better or even “the same as” some one else. About being authentic to what God is calling us to do. I think those messages are great for anyone- especially an Andy.
I also wondered when these “big time pastor guys” were able to be fed. Francis Chan spoke very tenderly about spending time with Louie Giglio for just that purpose- ministering to each other. So I hope they had opportunities to be fed as well.
While I didn’t care about the tattooing, I found myself uncomfortable at how much money had to have been spent on media (esp some of the promo videos) instead of going to the causes like Compassion or Hope international that were being plugged. I think anyone who attended (and certainly those who just hear about it) can find something they didn’t like.
But overall, I really felt it was a good jump start for our church leadership, and for my husband & I in our personal mission fields as well.
Sorry, I feel like i just started commenting on your blog & I’m already writing WAY long responses. You just get us thinking!!
Kirk Schneemann says:
Great post, Shaun.
Our multi-site church has identified our “shadow mission” (see John Ortberg’s book “Overcoming Your Shadow Mission”) as being a “cool church for cool people.” We are a trendy bunch seeking to “help people take next steps with God. We have realized, however, that “pure motives” is an oxymoron and we must never let the shadow mission overtake the mission.
On a related note, while I love Catalyst, the spiritual highlight of my year is the annual Pastors Prayer Summit that I take along with dozens of area pastors. No agenda, speaker or leader. We spend 3-4 days praying together. Period. Incredible! http://www.prayersummits.net
Results of the Prayer Summits have included cooperation between the churches, joint worship services (dozens of churches come together on Palm Sunday each year), community service (we have given away hundreds of filled backpacks to under-resourced kids), and a beautiful spirit of unity (see John 17).
Blessings to you all!
John Sullivan says:
This is a VERY helpful book for small pastors. Tons of wisdom:
http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Ordinary-Pastor-Reflections-Carson/dp/1433501996