Shaun Groves
Christians like church but not Jesus. So says Brant in what is possibly the most vulnerable post of his I’ve ever read. But I disagree.
Brant and I both have two audiences. One audience knows us primarily because of what we do in the Christian music biz. (Brant hosts the most subversively entertaining morning show on Christian radio for WAY-FM and I’m a Christian soft rock star of sorts.) Our second audience knows the stuff we write on-line and other places. Or they live next door or married us. We’re not treated the same by both audiences.
The first audience sometimes gets upset when Brant plays an eighties rock song on his accordion, or when I show up in jeans to their church service. We’re sometimes not Christian enough for that first bunch of Christians. Or Brant’s just a truly awful accordion player and my hot bod in jeans causes these weaker brothers of ours to stumble – we can’t know for sure.
The second audience thinks it’s funny that I just said I have a hot bod. You get the idea.
Now, it’s this first audience that has Brant thinking there are lot of Christians who like church but don’t like Jesus. When Brant says Jesus-y stuff on the radio it’s this first audience that says he’s wrong. They don’t realize it – I don’t think – but they actually don’t agree with Jesus. (This is stunning to experience firsthand, by the way, and is one of the more, um, enlightening things about conversing with and serving that first audience on a regular basis. Bless their heart.)
But, like I said, I disagree with Brant on this one. Sort of.
It’s not that these folks in audience one dislike Jesus. They dislike Brant’s Jesus. They love their Jesus. And “they” don’t all have the same Jesus either. Which means that two folks sitting side-by-side in my concert or in neighboring cubicles listening to Brant this morning also might not like one another’s Jesuses either. There’s not one Jesus.
I’ll take it one step further. The same thing is true of audience two. They don’t all have the same Jesus either. But they like enough about Brant’s Jesus and my Jesus to like us.
And here’s the kicker. I don’t like Brant’s Jesus and he doesn’t like mine. Not totally. For example…
My Jesus says what’s most important is loving God and loving people. My Jesus says to love even the bad guys, to actively do good to them and not harm. My Jesus says this won’t be easy for me to understand and pull off. (Matthew 5:43-48, Matthew 5:38-42, Luke 6:27-36, Matthew 10:21-22, Matthew 10:34-39, Matthew 26:47-54, Luke 22:47-51)
Brant’s Jesus says what’s most important is loving God and loving people. Brant does this better than I do I suspect. But Brant’s Jesus also says that sometimes, to love people, you have to hurt bad guys. Brant doesn’t like everything about my Jesus and I don’t like everything about his.
But I like Brant. I like Brant in spite of his Jesus. And he seems to like me in spit of mine too. Because, I don’t know how, but I think that’s something our Jesus just makes us do.
Rebecca says:
interesting…….
Compassion dave says:
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16
I can’t help but think Jesus refers to me as, “My David,” and how in light of that I really can’t lay claim to anything or anyone, let alone the ‘One’ thing in the entire universe that was not created. But then again I’m probably just being picky–you can pick on me for referring our Creator as a ‘thing’.
Suzanne says:
I’ve had similar thoughts, especially when we played to a crowd of “non Christians” last week. There was a group there who performed El Shaddai and we were like, yay! Christians! But as I surveyed their faces as WE performed our CHRISTIAN songs, there was no look of encouragement, not even a smile…read my post, “She said, then she said” for a synopsis on that night.
I find your post interesting as well. Can’t wait to see you @ Cup ‘O Joy (Green Bay, Wisconsin) next week!
Molly says:
Well, “agreeing” with Jesus is darn hard work!
Beautiful post, thanks Shaun.
Shaun Groves says:
Compassion Dave, I’m not using “My” to imply ownership, Dave. But you aren’t being picky, just missing the point perhaps. Or not addressing it. Not sure.
Molly, which Jesus?
Compassion dave says:
Nah, I got the point, it is just my tendency to digress…
Shaun Groves says:
Tendency noted and accounted for, Dave. Thanks for reading.
Cheryl says:
Not sure who said it, maybe Tony Campolo? Too liberal for my christian friends and too christian for my liberal friends . . . if not for the love of Jesus, we’d all never get along!
Jonathan says:
Shaun,
I read his post and I didn’t see any mention of hurting others. Did I miss it, or is this some reference to a different blog post?
Shaun Groves says:
I don’t know what you’re talking about, Jonathan. Did you take my post as an accusation against Brant? Do you think I’m accusing home of hurting people? Anybody else think I was doing that? Confused, here.
Brant and I are truly friends. He’s not hurt anybody – maybe ever – so, no, he’s not hurt anybody.
Again, I’m a bit confused by your comment, Jonathan.
Shaun Groves says:
Ok, Jonathan, I went in and deleted a lot from that one big paragraph about my Jesus and is views on violence. Maybe that’s what threw you off. Maybe it looked like I was arguing with Bran there. Not my intention. Hope the streamlining helps.
Tina says:
Will the real Jesus please stand up?
We can learn much more about the real Jesus as we learn about the Hebrew roots of our faith. I have been amazed at the misconceptions I had about Jesus by not knowing the Hebraic mindset in which the Bible was written, and by not understanding contexts for situations in the Word of God. Centuries ago, we as the Gentile church, pulled away from our foundations, and we lost so much understanding, as we took on the Roman mindset and continue in that until this day.
If we only see the sides of Jesus that we want to see or that make us feel comfortable or that agree with all the “traditions” of men we have been taught all of our lives, then we will definitely miss who He really is. We must be hungry for Truth, and He is the Truth, the Way and the Life.
Blessings, and I hope this sheds a little different light for us!
Tina
Shaun Groves says:
TIna, do you think we can ever see ONLY Jesus? Free of ALL influence? Is that really possible?
Mark Hollingsworth says:
I do see Jesus hurting bad guys. But it’s with his words and they deserved it! Matthew 3:7
Tina says:
I think that it is so much more possible than we realize, simply because Jesus “was” and He “is” the same. Who He was while on earth is Who He is now, except He now has a glorified body and will return as a Lion instead of our Passover Lamb. Our Savior was a Jewish Rabbi. He was an observant Jew. He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets perfectly and became the Bridge, the Door for our way to our Father in Heaven, to eternal life.
As Gentile believers, we have missed so much understanding and knowledge that is crucial about our Lord, because of what happened in the early centuries after the 1st century church. It is too much to describe historically in this comment, but I can certainly suggest books on the subject that I believe are crucial and full of revelation and importance for the end-times Church.
It is utterly amazing how we can see Jesus in literally every book of the Bible. When we realize how important it is to understand this olive tree, into which we have been grafted, then we understand so much more about our beloved Messiah.
Would you like some book suggestions?
Your People Shall Be My People by Don Finto
Jewish Roots by Dan Juster
several books on Jesus, etc, by Brad Young
Father Abraham by Marvin Wilson, PhD
Those are a few!
You see, because we don’t know our heritage as Gentile believers, we make up our own thoughts about Jesus, what seems right to us. Yet, in order to truly know someone, you need to know how they think, right? You need to know what they love, what they believe, what they adhere to, their culture, their worldview.
It’s the same for knowing Jesus more fully. Does that mean a person cannot receive salvation without all this knowledge? Of course not! Yet, as they grow in Him and seek Him with all their hearts, I believe our Father will show them more and more.
Blessings! And I love your music by the way! Awesome to chat with you!
Tina
dub says:
Very thought provoking, both yours and Brant’s.
Being imperfectly human as we are, are we really capable of fully reflecting the fullness of Jesus as he really is?
Could it be possible that we individually reflect of Jesus what we are able, and each differently as such?
Be it that we know in part, we live by what we know. I would like to think that at some point all of the parts could come together to be a full reflection of the person of Jesus, truly the Body that Paul wrote about.
Maybe to some degree, it is all part of the grand design.
Molly says:
Shaun, “agreeing” (I probably should have said LIVING LIKE)….
The red letter Jesus of course
Shaun Groves says:
Tina, thanks for elaborating. Good thoughts.
I’ve read all of those books and then some. (Jesus the Jewish Theologian I found the most perspective shifting). But, things is, your list proves my point. Those books disagree with each other to some degree. They all paint a slightly different picture of who Jesus was/is and sometimes those pictures conflict. I think one human picture of Jesus will always conflict with another’s.
I don’t think it’s possible this side of the grave to be certain my Jesus is the accurate one. That scares me, to be honest with you, but it’s what I really think right now. Anybody with me on that?
Ron Woods says:
I dunno what I want to say about all of that. But what I do want to say is that your posts lately are really cleaning my clock. Did you go on a sabbath retreat or something? I mean, I’m the freaken pastor. I’m the old guy. But I’m kind of tired and God just has been letting me get beat up for a few years now and … well, thanks. That’s all. Just thanks for thinking and writing.
Now would you put out some new music for cryin out loud. Geez. All my old Margaret Becker is starting to look really good …
Brant says:
This is a very positive way of looking at it, in a sense. But I’m not totally on board. Here’s why:
You and I? We hear what Jesus says, and struggle with it. We recognize that Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith. This is simply not so for many American Christians.
You say the use of force is always—regardless of context, regardless of any factors, always—wrong. Always. I say in extreme circumstances, it is a result of our fallen world that it can be the loving thing to do.
So we disagree. Could be that I’ll change my mind (I do occasionally) or you’ll change yours. But we’re both dealing with the ramifications of Jesus’s teaching to love, and trying to grapple with it.
This is simply not true for many very religious Christians with whom I deal. They do not quote Jesus to me. Ever. When I quote him, they rebut him.
Fact is, yes, people have different impressions of Jesus, but these impressions do not have equal standing. Some simply do not like him, because he blasts what they stand for. They do *not* like that his burden is easy and his teachings are light. They want their religion complex. They do not like that all the commands can be summed up so easily with love.
I don’t mean to sound too negative. I was one of these people. Mr. Doctrine. And it’s a fact that when I was Mr. Doctrine, I spent very little time wrestling with the Author of our faith, and much more time memorizing stuff Paul said to win doctrine arguments. This is where many remain. May God help us all grow up.
Jen says:
I’m sure you’ve read or at least heard of Rob Bell’s “Velvet Elvis”. In his book he kind of addresses this. He talks about our Christianity being just that- OUR Christianity. All Christian books, writings, teachings, preachings, perspectives are based on each individuals own experience in Christianity. No one has the be-all end-all of Christianity or ‘who Jesus is’. Because depending on the source, it’s going to be different. My Jesus IS going to be different than yours, I suppose because I’m coming from a different perspective, a different history. I can take everything He says in the Bible and think I’m believing and living it out in exact context but it’s still going to be different than how you would live it out.
I get what you’re saying. I’m not sure how I feel about all of this yet. I’m still trying to “work out my own faith”. But thanks for sharing. Thanks for the perspective on YOUR Jesus.
Amy @ My Friend Amy says:
Interesting. I do agree that whenever we read a book (like the Bible) we bring our own life experiences and filters to the table. But there has to be some common ground….I mean otherwise what’s the point? Anyone could interpret things as they like and as long as they say well that’s my Jesus, it’s all okay–we’re all the same?
Shaun Groves says:
There is common ground, Amy. That’s why I described both my Jesus and Brant’s as teaching that what’s most important is loving God and loving people. That’s how Jesus summarized all of the Law and the prophets: love God and people. That’s great common ground for Brant and I to have.
That’s the core of Christianity.
And I suspect that the farther a topic is form that core (diet, parenting, spending, politics) the less agreement Christians will have. As we move from that core we discover that we have very different ideas about what Jesus said and what He meant.
Yes, anyone can interpret Jesus any way they like. They won’t be right but they can do it. And we all do. You do it. There’s no way everything you think Jesus meant is actually what he meant. I don’t think that’s possible. And that’s humbling for me – but not scary at all.
This isn’t an attack by me on absolute truth. I believe absolutes exist. I just don’t think, as we move from the core message of Jesus (to love God and love people) that we can be sure we’ve nailed those absolutes down without any interference by our sinful nature, culture-at-large, pragmatism, etc.
Bill Whitt says:
Well said. I think the main fallacy in Brant’s post is that he (or maybe his listeners) tend to position one passage of Scripture in opposition to another. He talks about people quoting Paul but then Jesus correcting them. But Scripture, properly understood, never contradicts itself. So there must be a way to bring these teachings into harmony with one another. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.
If all Christians knew the basics of hermeneutics (and actually read their Bibles), maybe we wouldn’t have all these different versions of Jesus you mention in your post. Perhaps this is the chief failing of the Church today.
jimmyd3 says:
The scene in “Talladega Nights” when Ricky Bobby was saying grace and they got into a fight over which Jesus they liked comes to mind.
But not to make less of this thread, I believe we have every right to humble about our understanding of Jesus and I feel that is what he addresses in Mt 12:31. Not that we shouldn’t seek to understand, though.
Jonathan says:
Hi Shawn,
No, I didn’t think you were accusing him. In your second to last paragraph you have the sentence “But Brant’s Jesus also says that sometimes, to love people, you have to hurt bad guys.” I was asking for clarification more than anything else because I didn’t see that from his post.
Jonathan
JenniferC. says:
hmmm… I agree that we do have our own picture of Jesus’ characteristics and the way we think he would and does act in our daily lives and the lives of people we come in contact with. But I also think that God/Jesus reveals himself in different ways to each of us, so that we as individuals can be of use in living out Jesus in the Body. I don’t think this is bad. God is just that big.
Bill Whitt says:
For each person, certain characteristics of Jesus may be more prominent than to other characteristics in their mental picture of him. But the question remains: Is that picture faithful, and is it complete?
For example, let’s say that I’m impatient (10% of the time), jealous (20% of the time), logical (30% of the time) and ridiculously generous (40% of the time). For someone to describe me only as impatient is to miss 90% of my personality. For someone to harp on the fact that I’m jealous is to miss the greatness of my generosity.
The same can be said of those who describe Jesus only as merciful, while downplaying his holiness (or vice versa). They’re missing the big picture.
So, while it’s OK that we all have our own pictures of Jesus, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t constantly be striving to get the most accurate and complete picture possible. Otherwise, as I tried to show in the analogy above, you can still be technically right and still misrepresent the bigger picture of who Jesus revealed Himself to be.
Where the analogy breaks down in that I believe Jesus is perfect in all his attributes. He’s 100% holy, 100% loving, 100% righteous, etc. So, then we have to ask ourselves if our idea of Jesus is centered on just one of these attributes (our favorite one), or all of them in balance???
Stephen @ Rebelling Against Indifference says:
Shaun, there’s an N.T. Wright quote – my favorite theological statement at the moment – that goes along with this.
“The one thing I want to add to that is humility. And humility includes intellectual humility. And it’s difficult, because within our rationalistic western world, people assume that if you say that, you’re a relativist. I’m certainly not a relativist. Jesus is the Lord, and I worship Him, and He is the center of my life. And that’s non-negotiable, actually. I know I could no more step outside that than I could step outside my own skin. But precisely because it is Jesus who is the Lord, it behooves me to say, as I used to say to my students when I was teaching in the university, “Listen, a third of what I’m telling you is badly flawed in some way. But I don’t know which one third it is.” So you need to live with those questions and puzzles.”
keith says:
Your Jesus has a lot of Scripture passages under his name. I’m siding with him.
Shaun Groves says:
Brant’s Jesus could too but I don’t know them by heart like I know my Jesus’ ; )
Cheryl says:
I think it’s a mistake to call yours or Brant’s (or anyone else’s for that matter) beliefs about Jesus as JESUS, to be so dogmatic about it. Does anyone have a corner on the truth? We all have a picture in our minds (true or not) of who we think Jesus is. But, do you really think that the Bible describes more than one Jesus?
We are made in His image, He isn’t made in ours. We don’t change his nature by who we think He is, He changes the way we think about Him by who He is and by revealing that through day in and day out relationship with us. I know Him better today than I did last month, same is true for my friends. I mean, do we ever really know other people completely? I learn new things about my husband all the time.
I’m in the second group of people you described (I did laugh out loud at the hot bod comment). But, I used to be in the first, stuck in tradition for tradition sake, raising my eye brows at anything that didn’t fit my paradigm, too scared to pull out the bricks of my theology for fear that it would all come tumbling down. But, God intervened . . . and as the bricks, one by one, were pulled from the wall, I could not deny that the Jesus being revealed to me was nothing like I ever imagined Him to be.
Yeah, the wall did come tumbling down, but who wants to hide behind a wall anyways? Jesus is this awesome, radical rebel that defies my imaginings, my traditions, my definition of Him . . .He is altogether and thoroughly amazing, lovely and other-world. And, church . . . well, sometimes it leaves a little to be desired, somehow trying to fit God and people into a pigeon hole so that we’re all easier to manage.
Don’t know if any of this is relevant, hope it is and that I haven’t completely missed the point. Sure enjoy the dialog, Shawn.
Lindsay @ Not2Us says:
“That’s how Jesus summarized all of the Law and the prophets: love God and people. That’s great common ground for Brant and I to have.
That’s the core of Christianity.
And I suspect that the farther a topic is form that core (diet, parenting, spending, politics) the less agreement Christians will have. As we move from that core we discover that we have very different ideas about what Jesus said and what He meant. “
Ack! Yes, yes, yes! Have you been reading my notes for the upcoming women’s retreat I’m preparing for???
Bill Whitt says:
I used to be in group one too. Now, I laughed at the “hot bod” comment and proudly call myself part of group two. Part of the reason for the change is from reading the Bible through for myself several times and finding out there’s a lot more to Jesus than a lot of churches teach.
I think Christians will always be changing their views about Jesus as they learn more about him. The important thing is to never stop learning and never stop expanding in our knowledge of him.
Loren says:
Love God and Others, The whole law hangs on this.
I agree a great common ground. But even that can and will be interpreted a million ways, and I read Eph 4 where it talks about unity and wonder if we will ever get there, or is the “there” heaven or heaven on earth? I’ve been close to “there” a time or two but it is fleeting.
Amanda says:
My Jesus…
I started thinking about it this way: I know my husband…I know him very well. His mom knows him too…very well. But we know him differently. I’m not just talking about “biblically,” but also because I know him within the context of my life and my experiences. Does that mean that He is different or not the man his mom knows? Nope, just that he is the man I need and the son she is blessed with.
So, the relationship analogy doesn’t translate directly with Jesus, but I think that He often allows Himself to be the Jesus we need (I too am not being relativistic, but rather asserting “Christ all and in all.”)
I have swung from conservative calvinist as an undergraduate who prided herself on having taken Greek in high school and through college to someone who realizes how far from single-mindedness I can be….and now my “heroes” are those who are living in the kingdom and showing us how and why we should too (Shane Claiborne, Dallas Willard, Elisabeth Elliot). Boy, are they all different, but I bet there “Jesus” could certainly sit down for a cup of coffee together (although it would be fair trade coffee sold to support a starving tribe in Ecuador, or something like that).