Shaun Groves
This is the first of what will almost certainly be a series of posts I’m calling Frequently Asked (Strange) Questions. The first question is usually asked something like this: “So what’s your position on Catholics? Do you think they’re Christians?”
First off, we Protestants (supposedly) don’t have a pope – one guy who tells us definitely what God’s position is on this or that. So it’s ironic when when Protestants ask me, as if I’m the pope, what my position is on this or that.
Second, here’s the answer I always give to this frequently asked (strange) question: I have as much certainty about whether a Catholic is a Christian as I do about whether a Baptist, Methodist or Lutheran is a Christian. Not much.
I think if the rapture were to happen at 10:30 Sunday morning there would be quite a few people left in the seats of every kind of church and there would be many ascending to heaven directly from their beds and fishing boats. And if I’m right this will tick off some of us Protestants but in the end we’re not God. We don’t get to choose, thankfully, who’s in and who’s out. We’re not up to the job. We lack eyes that can search the depths of the soul in order to make such an everlasting determination. We have a difficult time searching our own soul don’t we?
Third, behind this answer is a lot of hurt. I have an aunt who converted to Catholicism many years ago and as a child I witnessed the way she was treated by Protestants for it, as if she’d turned her back on God when in reality she’d simply left the Baptist church. She was still – as far as I could tell – every bit as in love with Jesus as she’d always been. She was still every bit as generous toward me as she’d always been. Unable to see her soul, to know the trajectory of her every desire, unable to read the Lamb’s book of Life from way down here, it puzzles me – no, it pisses me off – that she was treated as one of Lucifer’s angels cast down from heaven after rebelling against God. So that’s my bias. There it is. And you should weigh that when you read my answer.
Lastly, I have a question for those who ask me about Catholics – and there are a lot of you. Why do you ask? I think you ask because there are elements of Catholic theology that don’t line up with your Protestant theology. If that’s the case, then maybe we need to be reminded more often about how this whole salvation thing works. I think you and I, while we say we’re “saved by grace”, behave sometimes as if we’re saved by theology. Regardless of what church we belong to, this isn’t very Jesus-y of us.
Jesus – who was a Jew and neither Protestant nor Catholic – taught that all of scripture could be summed up or interpreted with one singular command to love God and love each other. It’s Jesus who will sort us all out in the end, dividing the sheep from the goats, not on the basis of our theology but our love: Potent faith coming out of us as love.
But that’s ambiguous isn’t it? It’s too squishy of a standard. It’s too hard to determine who’s “in” and who’s “out” using that ruler, huh? I know. Jesus is annoying like that. No checklist I can tick off. No four spiritual laws announced at the feeding of the five thousand. Jesus doesn’t offer a surefire ritual or program we can work through in order to inherit His eternal life. That sure would make judging each other a lot easier don’tcha think? I think all of us – Protestants and Catholics – can agree on that.
RevJeff says:
So…
What do you think about Michael W Smith fans?
Dawn~Canada says:
I’m glad there’s no list, I’d never get in! I think that’s most of us. And you’re right, when we finally get to the other side, I think we’ll be pretty surprised as to who’s there and who’s not. Cheers!
Laurie says:
I have been so guilty of judging based on theology alone. Thanks so much for the thoughts. This is really hitting home for me in a lot of ways.
Shawn says:
Shaun, by the way, what do you think if I told you that because you did not read the King James version of the bible you were reading something that was not the bible, or what if i told you because you did not wear a three piece suit every sunday to church, you were not obeying God? LOL…first of all I would never tell you any of that, but there are those protestants, that will tell other protestants that those are the rules! LOL. It’s funny how we get hung up on legalisms and our specific denominational doctrines (Which man wrote!).
Thank God, I can wear a tee shirt, and jeans, and play loud rock and roll praise music every day including at church, and that I can read, the NIV, NLT, MESSAGE, etc, and still have that awesome relationship with Jesus Christ! Thank you Lord, for that! Amen!
Amanda says:
There was a checklist. It was the Old Testament law. And NO ONE could measure up. So Jesus came, died for my sins, rose again, returned to heaven, leaving me hear, as you said, to love Him and love everyone else. That’s it. It’s really so simple and our denominational doctrines can so trip us up.
Sometimes I get hung up on issues. Like when my friend was kicked out of her church. And I want someone to anwer for that. Jesus softly whispers (and then sometimes knocks me in the head since I wasn’t listening the first time) and says, “Just love. I’ll take care of all the rest.”
Todd says:
I used to ask that question sincerely, as I wondered whether I needed to spend time evangelizing them with the “true” gospel. As I’ve gotten older, the standards of that “true” gospel have become far less legalistic.
Oh, and I actually met and became friends with some Catholic folks. It’s amazing what happens when you talk WITH people and not just about them.
Compassion dave says:
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1
I believe much of the burden falls upon the shoulders of those who guide and teach us; i.e. if our spiritual leaders mislead, it is not entirely our fault if our doctrines are askew. God weighs the heart after all.
Someone will likely jump-in at this point and declare that the individual believer has a responsibility to investigate Spiritual things for himself. Quite true, however while there is a need to ensure that ‘teachings’ jive with God’s Word, there still remains a ‘boo-boo margin’ the size of which is dependent upon where a person finds himself along God’s narrow path.
Here’s the reality–When we ‘cross over’ we will be astonished as we gaze upon those who join us and they will be even more surprised that we are joining them. Which leaves me with this thought: there are 7 billion people (approximately) in the world and out of all of them I can only be certain of one who is going to Heaven…me.
Grovesfan says:
AMEN and AMEN! I could care less what denomination you align yourself with (certain exceptions of course; Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and others who claim to be Christian, but clearly are not). It’s the tenant’s of the CHRISTIAN faith that makes us God’s chosen; not the theology. A personal, saving, relationship with Jesus Christ is what it takes. Nothing more, nothing less.
Veretax says:
Shaun,
As a person with a lot of family who are catholic, (My dad’s family mostly). What I tell people is I have a problem with their hierarchy, not necessarily their lay people. You can’t just draw a line with a broad brush, because God looks at the individuals heart, not the church they belong to.
I’m sorry to say there are some Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, etc. Who are relying on their own church membership to get into heaven, but if they don’t have faith in Christ then it means nothing.
Suzanne says:
I’ve asked this question to others before and the easy answer is we don’t know everyone’s hearts (I WAS raised Catholic). Someone said Catholics, Lutherans, whomever, stay at their churches because of FILL IN THE BLANK (tradition, the kind of service, where their relatives go, etc.)
I guess I look at the fruit coming out of each person and watch for true kindness. But even with these, people’s personalities and struggles get in the way!
I suppose all I can do is be the best disciple for Christ that I can be and let God judge the rest!
Becky says:
Excellent post, Shaun.
I highly recommend the book “Chasing Francis” by Ian Morgan Cron.
More than anything else in my life, that book helped this protestant-raised, Catholic-judging girl to have a new (and much healthier) view of Catholicism.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=chasing+francis&x=0&y=0
Shane Martin says:
Shaun,
I read your post on your website and while I can appreciate your hurt and because I know you, sincerity is one of your greater attributes. But, in love, I do believe there is some things lacking from your observation.
I don’t believe we can judge “who’s in” and “who’s out” based on what denomination people belong to, but it is important to look at what is taught in that denomination. What separates us (protestants) from the catholic church & rome is something very essential, and that is the issue of justification by faith in Christ alone. Rome cannot claim that and they don’t. I would encourage you to read, The Council of Trent.
No doubt, Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself, and christians above all should love like no one else. Sadly, that is not the case. But, we cannot base someone’s salvation based strictly on how well they and the fact they say they love Jesus. It sounds safe and good to say, “let Jesus sort it all out. Let’s just love one another.” But Scripture is also very clear we should “study to show ourselves approved.”
Doctrine and theology are not the enemy, it’s the lack of good and biblical theology. I think it is very dangerous to take the position of “don’t give me doctrine, just give me Jesus.” How does that help us if we don’t know the Jesus we are asking for. Mormons say they believe in Jesus, Bahai say that, Muslims say that, Jehovah’s witness say that and yet their definitions are very different than that of the Bible.
Now, please don’t misunderstand because I know lots of catholics who are believers and some of the most committed I have ever seen. But, as one of them once told me, “I’m a christian in spite of what the heart of the catholic church teaches not because of it.”
As protestants we declare, “Christ + nothing and He alone.” Catholic theology is very different. “Christ + this and that and then you can only hope you did enough.”
I am not saying we judge the heart of the person, and I would never, ever suggest that but there are things we can know. And one of them is, Jesus died for sinners and was raised from the dead. Salvation is found in Him alone and His work on the cross. Not, what He did and these certain prayers and works.
At some point, Christians have to take a stand for the biblical gospel and preach Christ and Him alone. It’s not popular and it’s not easy. But, I fear if we continue to just say, “it’s all about love and let Jesus sort it all out” we are continuing to not only mislead those who are being mislead, but we are also misleading ourselves.
Under His mercy.
Kees Boer says:
Salvation has nothing to do with what church or denomination one attends. The Bible is very clear on this topic. Over 150 times in the New Testament alone, the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith in Christ. Some examples of these are: John 3:16-18, John 5:24, John 6:47, Acts 16:31, Rom. 4:4,5, and Ephesians 2:8,9. So, if a person has faith in Christ and specifically, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then they are saved. It is by grace, through faith and not by works.
Having said that, some churches teach this clearly, whereas other churches will teach that salvation is by one’s own effort. There are even churches that teach that unless you’re a member of their church, you can’t be saved.
I have friends that are Catholic, that have placed their faith in Christ alone and they are saved. Having said that, if you look through church history, the very reason that the Protestants split from the Catholic church was this very issue. Martin Luther read Rom. 1:16, which states that the just shall live by faith. That is the foundation of the Reformation. Many believers gave their lives for this doctrine. To them, it wasn’t about fighting over doctrine, it was about the Truth of God’s Word and what Christ did for them on the cross. Incidentally, Martin Luther didn’t want to leave the Catholic church, but he was excommunicated from them, because he wouldn’t renounce his belief in what he saw the Scriptures teach.
When we take doctrines out the Scriptures, that doesn’t equate to a lack of love for God. It actually is part of loving God with all of our heart, soul, and mind. Part of loving God is believing what God clearly teaches in Scripture. It is having a reference for His Word. I read in Isa. 66:2 “This is the one, whom I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my Word.”
On a totally different topic. I’m looking for someone to sponsor a little boy in Bolivia with Compassion International, named Ruddy Alejo. He’s 9 years old. If anyone knows of someone, who would like to sponsor him, please let me know. (310) 933-4284
Blessings,
Kees
Zach says:
I like what Shane said up there.. But I just want to say that I’ve seen people in the Catholic church that definitely are believers, but I’ve seen some that aren’t, too. I think that’s part of where this question comes from, the other big part being the ‘Christ+nothing’ vs. ‘Christ+thisthatandthensome’ like Shane mentioned.
Lindsay says:
from “The Shack”:
“Jesus”: “Those who love me come from every system that exists. They were Buddhists or Mormons, Baptists or Muslims, Democrats, Republicans and many who do not vote or are not part of any Sunday morning or religious institutions. I have followers who were murderers and many who were self-righteous. Some are bankers and bookies, Americans and Iraqis, Jews and Palestinians. I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters, into my Beloved.”
Mack: “Does that mean that all roads will lead to you?”
“Jesus”: “Not at all. Most roads don’t lead anywhere. What it does mean is that I will travel any road to find you.”
David says:
I thought it was gonna stand for Frequently Asked (Stupid) Questions. But feel free to answer a couple of those as well, if it floats your boat.
Good call on the Catholic/Protestant thing. We may have some bones to pick about theology between our two camps (as we do between several schisms of the Protestant church and even amongst individual churches), but if I can’t see beyond that and recognize my own brothers and sisters, maybe that should concern me for the state of my own soul moreso than the state of theirs.
Grovesfan says:
The quote above from “The Shack” is interesting, but the God in the book is seriously flawed. “God” also states in there that guilt is punishment enough for sins, and therefore, God need not punish the sinner. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
I love what Shane said above too. I’m just not articulate enough to state it so well.
My very best friend (and some family members too) are Catholic. When my friend was asked by her Priest to teach the children’s catechism classes, she agreed as long as he agreed that she would be focusing on the Jesus of the Bible and NOT of the Catholic church. In other words, she’d be teaching about the necessary, personal relationship with Jesus, repentance from sin, and GRACE through FAITH. He agreed and off she went.
Cynthia says:
“We lack eyes that can search the depths of the soul……”
Love that!
Compassion dave says:
Please don’t anyone compare apples and oranges, re: ‘The Shack’ and the utter nonsense spewed from that author & book and God’s Word the Bible.
That’s a whole ‘nother bag of donuts.
Ali says:
I’m jumping in because it appears some fellow commenters need the clarification.
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes from faith in Jesus Christ alone. If it is a true faith, that will be evident in our works, but it is not our works that obtain our salvation.
I guess I’ve been lucky in that all the priests I have known in my life have preached the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus. Again, the Catholic Church does officially teach that this is of greatest importance.
Finally, while it is good to read some of the older writings of the Church doctors, let’s remember that while at first the Catholic Church did not like what Luther had to say, they later admitted that he was right in many ways & made actions to change the things that were wrong. More recently, Vatican II has made even greater strides in helping the Church to evolve, so to speak.
Ruth says:
Thanks, I really appreciate your comments. Grace seems to be one of the dirtiest words in the Western church. It’s too inexplicable and messy. It doesn’t fit our doctrines and teachings and it frightens us. Ironically it’s grace that has saved us.
We say we’re saved by grace alone, but both Catholics AND Protestants alike are always adding to it. I’m so thankful my ability to be a recipient of grace isn’t dependent on my ability to get it right.
(Is it okay if I link to your blog??).
linda says:
cool, thanks for your frankness and as always, for sharing your thoughts!
Stretch Mark Mama says:
I am PRETTY sure that the Bible uses the phrase “ask Jesus into your heart.”
(Honestly, do you ever wonder how our doctrines/practices got to where they are today?)
david says:
I love this post. I have a beautiful grandmother who I love very much that cries and prays for me daily that I will find a good Church of Christ so I can have some assurance of where I’ll spend eternity.
Another grandmother is certain that while you may not have to be baptized to get into heaven, you DO have to be baptized to get into her church. “That’s why we are called Baptists!!!” Apparently its VERY exclusive.
David says:
I am PRETTY sure that the Bible uses the phrase “ask Jesus into your heart.”
That might depend on which translation of the Bible you’re reading. (If we listen to more than one person’s opinion on this, then by definition, all English translations are heretical.)
But yeah, we do emphasize a lot of stuff like “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” that isn’t actually in the Bible, which is not to say it’s a bad idea, but sometimes we make that the central saving thing when really it’s just a tool, a way of helping us to understand things better. And then we attack others for seeming to make their “tools” the central saving thing in their doctrine. It gets ugly.
I think it’s good and right to discuss our doctrinal differences and to try to come to some sort of a consensus. It’s also healthy to realize that so many humans with so many different flawed ways of seeing God are never going to come to a complete agreement on this… and that their agreement, even in the unlikely event that it does happen, does not define theological reality. Better for that to be a friendly debate among sisters and brothers than a reason to draw up battle lines and assume everyone not in your own little foxhole is going to Hell.
Susan Charest says:
Wow, Shaun, I couldn’t agree with you more.
I do not have the bible knowledge like most of you who left comments, but what I do have is God in my heart.
And I try to live every day in a CONSCIOUS state to ask myself what would Jesus do? These are simple acts of kindness, you know the kind—helping the elderly by carrying their groceries, or taking food to a neighbor who is out of work. This is probably selfish on my part, because it makes me FEEL SO GOOD. And why does this make me feel good? Because this is the gift, my friend, that God has given all of us. It bonds us. But we have to listen to it, and not pass up opportunities of help.
It’s hard at times to listen to it, we live in a society that places emphasis on “stuff” which I label “noise” which doesn’t allow us to hear God singing from the stage of our heart.
So, I’m not judging some of you for judging..but let’s not make what seperates some religions “noise” and miss out on the awesome songs that are playing inside each of us.
Susan Charest says:
– – Kees Boer, I couldn’t reach you by phone so please contact me about Ruddy – I think we can help.
Email works best:
Kees Boer says:
Hi, Stretch Mark Mama,
The phrase “Ask Jesus into your heart.” is not really used in Scripture. There are two parts where this could be implied, but it isn’t very strong.
The most famous part on this is Rev. 3:20. People take that as Jesus being outside of the door of one’s heart, trying to get in. It would be difficult to force that meaning on that passage, because it’s not talking about Jesus being outside of an unbeliever’s heart. It’s talking about Jesus being outside of a church, specifically the Laodician church.
The other section is in Ephesians, where it says to the church of Epheses, “So that Christ may dwell in your heart through faith” (Eph. 3, somewhere around verse 15 or so).
This is why I don’t use that phrase when sharing the Gospel. The phrase that is used about 150 times in the New Testament is the word “believe.” I cited several examples earlier. The word “believe” comes from the Greek word PISTEUO, which means to trust in, to depend upon or to rely upon.
That’s why I like to use that very word, because it’s the word that the Bible uses.
Kees
Anonymous gal says:
I used to be more accepting of Catholicism, but lately my views have changed. The Catholics I have come in contact with or have observed from afar have been very argumentative, were ultimately trusting in themselves to get to heaven, and/or were not actually focusing on Jesus, instead focusing on the saints, praying to saints and being like the saints, rather than praying to Jesus and trying to be like Jesus.
The extra books in the Bible, the works-based theology of many Catholics, the ideas of purgatory and things like that that aren’t supported by Scripture make me think that if you’re going to accept Catholicism as part of Christianity, you might as well accept Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cults like those.
That’s my opinion.
David says:
I’d be careful not to characterize all Catholics by a few that you have come into contact with. For that matter, I’ve met Protestants who make salvation more about following particular leaders’ ideals, or about behavior, rather than about belief in Jesus Christ. Even behaving like Jesus won’t save you. If you just see Jesus as a good role model, you’re missing the point. (Though He is a good role model. So are some of the saints. So are some well-known Protestant leaders, speakers, artists, etc.)
diane says:
This Catholic says: AMEN! Preach it, brother!
A dear Baptist friend of mine steered me toward this blog. I may not agree with all aspects of your theology, but I thank God with all my heart for your charity and irenicism.
By the way, for all my evangelical brethren: Catholics believe in Sola Gratia. We really do! It’s even in the Catechism.
And in Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, our greatest theologians. Everything comes from His Grace. Everything!
God bless y’all!
Diane
Dave Haupert says:
Shaun, that was a MASTERPIECE! I loved this post, as it stated so many great points so eloquently. I’m asked the same question so often, but have never been able to answer it this well. Please keep this blog post where it is so I can bookmark this page indefinitely!!
Carly says:
I am Roman Catholic and in simple terms, this is what we profess to believe…
“We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered died and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.”
(Note the small “c” on catholic – meaning “universal” in our Creed.)
You can learn more about the truths of that faith, rather than an individual Catholic’s (mine or anyone else’s) interpretation of them, here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc_cont.html
Barbara Curtis says:
Shaun –
You and I talked about this last year – and I want to say today from the bottom of my heart, thank you for writing this. I was an Evangelical who thought no one could possibly find Jesus in the Catholic Church – and was very free with my advice – until 18 months ago when I felt led to return to the church I was baptized in as a baby but never practiced. All the myths I’d heard about Catholics not reading the Bible were shattered. All the doubts I had were answered. I felt led to stay.
The persecution I went through from (some) evangelicals took me by surprise as many knew my heart and my life and my level of obedience. There were many ugly moments – including with my pastor. Even today I received an email from a woman who told me that I had “followed the tares.”
My pro-life work and reporting (for Focus on the Family) has taken me into many places where evangelicals and Catholics work together against our true enemy. It breaks my heart that instead of joining arms and creating a solid godly front in the face of a degenerate world, that small minds persist in these ridiculous games of judgment. Timothy 2:19 tells us that the Lord knows who are His. That should be enough to enable us to get on with the work He has for us – to use use our energies for His glory and to not allow ourselves to be distracted by the enemy.
I will say that it is mostly on the provincial level that the prejudice exists. In the organizations that we respect and admire, Catholics do work side by side with evangelicals, though we are regarded as enigmas.
God seems to be calling a fair number of evangelicals into the Catholic Church – and has been for some years. While the door swings both ways, usually disaffected Catholics leave because they are somehow able to find a relationship with Jesus outside the Catholic Church that they were unable to find in it. The Evangelicals I’ve met who’ve become Catholic have felt called there despite their previous prejudice and in the midst of a full relationship with Jesus.
With the political situation we find ourselves in today, I believe we may be seeing the battle lines drawn with the Catholic Church. That is, after all, where gays go to protest the biblical position. That is the denomination that our new president has repeatedly dissed (no priest at the Inauguration) and which has already this year faced an assault on its autonomy (Connecticut). This may be why we have been called there.
I don’t know. I do know that on my Christian journey since March 21, 1987, God has taken every rigid and legalistic boundary I have set, every judgment I have made of others, and challenged it and humbled me.
I thank God that He has done so. I am a better person for it.
Thanks Shaun for this post – it has been like healing balm. I will link from my blog.
Susan Charest says:
Dear Barbara – I love this comment that you posted – “….that instead of joining arms and creating a solid godly front in the face of a degenerate world, that small minds persist in these ridiculous games of judgment. Timothy 2:19 tells us that the Lord knows who are His. That should be enough to enable us to get on with
the work..:
I don’t believe that my God is exclusive, but inclusive to all. We should all be called into action to server others. How many missed opportunities do you think that we see every day? I strongly believe in living the example..which is not easy, trust me some days it’s a struggle to be a good wife, mother, friend, taxi driver, peacemaker, negotiator, etc… but I feel closest with my authentic self when serving, and I know that my children are learning about God through my day to day examples.
Marc Frigo says:
Well I’m neither Catholic or Protestant. I was raised Catholic, left the church at 18, came back as a Protestant at 29, and now I’ve been Messianic for the past 10 years.
So how do you feel about Messianics? Just kidding, really – you don’t have to answer that, because it honestly does not matter! What matters is how God sees us, and if we are following His will in our lives, which I believe I am doing, however imperfectly!
Stretch Mark Mama says:
Ha ha! I was totally being snarky when I mentioned the “ask Jesus into my heart.” I never use that phrase either (esp when teaching kids, who are endlessly literal). To me it’s just an example of something we hold to that seems so silly when you really sit down and think about it.
Susan Charest says:
OK… my husband is now nudging me to get off the computer.. but this really has me all fired up.
Thank you Shaun for introducing me to your blog, and this very controversial topic which will give me insomnia tonight –
I’m not going to speak defensively from the ego..OK here it goes.. but I am Catholic. I moved to the TN area a few years ago – and I did find it odd that the first question people asked me was “What church we belonged to?” I can now see that with a selected amount of people (trying to be “PC”) it really does manner..some of the labeling of Catholics I’ve learned tonight. I guess may be I think too simple.. “One Love, One Heart, Let’s get together and feel alright..” I hope that made you smile
On that note…good night, bloggers.
susan says:
Great topic (again). As someone raised in a Baptist (might I add – very legalistic) church whose Dad left Catholicism when he married my Mom – very well written and to the point. So glad that the years and searching the Scriptures and being open to God’s leading allows me to enjoy an occcasional service with my Catholic friends. Even taking part in Communion – as a non-Catholic one receives a blessing instead of the Eucharist. And my Catholic friends love God with their hearts, mind and souls.
Veretax says:
Isn’t it interesting how even the few catholics who have posted in the comments have slightly differing beliefs? Do we need more proof not to paint with such a broad brush?
Bethany says:
Here is my humble opinion:
When there’s a major difference in theology, such as there is between Catholics and Baptists, it is a big deal. Because Catholics believe in purgatory, pray to Mary, etc. These things are not Biblical. The reason I am a “baptist” is because I believe the baptists beliefs are aligned with the Bible more than any other denomination. If the Bible told me to pray to Mary instead of Jesus, I’d do it. But it doesn’t. Mary was only an instrument God used to bring His son into the world… just as you are an instrument to share the gospel with others through your music and ministry.
Spencer Barfuss says:
I completely agree with everything that Kees Baer has said on this issue. Growing up in the Catholic church, it was always just something we did, and never thought about anything else because the Bible was never taught. It wasn’t until college that I first heard the gospel, and I believed and was saved. Praise God.
Bethany says:
(PS: I forgot to say, I completely agree with Shane Martin’s comment on the subject)
Jim says:
I have quite a few Questions of the “Catholic” faith..
Why do they worship Mary ?
Why the Rosary ?
Why do they make stuff up that is NOT biblical ?
Zack says:
Great question, Shaun.
I made a huge mistake as a freshman in college. I wrote a monthly article for an online school newspaper, usually devoted to ethics or religion, and I made the (foolish) blanket statement in an article that Catholics, by definition, are not Christians. I was even careful to clarify that, as a former catholic myself, I simply meant that there are enough differences between the theology of Catholicism and protestant Christianity that they probably should not be considered to be the same religion.
You would not believe how much hate mail I received for that one.
A lesson learned the hard way that this is a very personal topic, and not as simple as I was trying to make it :0)
Barbara Curtis says:
Dear Bethany,
Thank you for your humble opinion, but as someone who has spent some years in the Baptist, Assembly of God, Episcopal, and various non-denomination and Bible churches I have seen many, many differing views backed with Bible “proof texts.’
With continuing splintering/fracturing of the Protestant line, many have come very far from what Martin Luther envisioned – and might be very surprised to know that he has a statue of Mary at his burial site.
What I object to is those – and I was included in this – who accept the prejudice they have been taught in their Baptist and Bible churches without ever asking a Catholic why we believe what we believe or seeking out that information as presented by Catholic rather than Baptists. There are websites like catholic.com.
I also object to those who would let these distinctions stand in the way of working together on praying together or confronting social issues.
As a former non-Catholic, I am all-too-familiar with the ugly judgmentalism which results in horrible situations like a Bible study group informing a long-time member that her recently deceased Catholic father was condemned to hell – thus making it clear to her that she had never been accepted as one of the group, but only an object to be “saved” in the “proper” way –
Yes, Stretch Mark Mama, I knew your “asking Jesus in your heart” was tongue in cheek.
I am pleading with those of you like Bethany to stop your rigid and prejudiced thinking, which is ugly and unChristlike – and to understand that we have too much at stake right now for this to continue.
Trey Chandler says:
If God is your Father, then I am your brother…
Adam S says:
Bethany, purgatory is not an officially recognized belief. There are many in the Catholic church who are concerned about an inappropriate devotion to Mary. Many if not most, protestants are speaking of what they do not know (both for and against really).
Spencer Barfuss says:
You should be receiving hate mail as a result of standing up for the truth. Now, when I say truth, I’m referring to the Bible. Now, the blanket statement that Catholics are not Christians is definitely not true. However, there are some very heretical teachings that are worth pointing out to Catholics so that they can please Jesus. Read Matthew 15, where Jesus talks about Pharisees who have raised up some teachings of men, and therefore invalidate the word of God by teaching other men these man-made teachings. Jesus condemned that, and so should we for anyone doing that, whether Catholic or Protestant. From what I can see though, Catholics are much more likely to commit this because the Catholic doctrine is based on man-made traditions with some Bible mixed in there. As a result, there are many practices that do not bring glory to God in the Catholic church.
But just to reiterate, the blanket statement that no Catholic can be a Christian is not true. However, Christians attending Catholic churches should be obey their man-made teachings that contradict and invalidate the word of God. Also, Christians attending a Catholic church should find a Catholic church (which will probably be extremely difficult) that teaches from the Bible.
Another side note, Catholic doctrine teaches that if you are not a member of the Catholic church, you are going to hell. As a former Catholic, that is in their doctrine.
Bethany says:
Basically true salvation comes down to this: 2 Corinthians 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
When someone comes to God on his terms, their lives are changed by the power of the gospel for the glory of God. That’s how I’m able to see if someone is truly saved – by their fruit.
Because of the differences between Catholicism (which I admit, I’m not an expert on by any means)and the Baptist (or similar) beliefs, I only think it would make sense to be affiliated, involved with, identified with, and apart of the “denomination” which your beliefs line up with. If someone truly believes in Christ as their savior, has accepted him, and their life has been changed, and are concerned with some of the beliefs of the Catholic church, why do they not find a church that they believe is more Biblical/more in line with what they believe?
Spencer Barfuss says:
I’d like to recommend a book that lovingly points out the differences between Catholic doctrine and what God’s word says. It’s called “Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics” by Ron Rhodes. It really helped me see just how far off the Catholic doctrine is from what God teaches in His word. Get this book, and you’ll be better equipped to point out the differences, and speak the truth in love.
The ISBN number for this book is: 0-7369-0208-2
Susan Charest says:
Why do we look for differences in religion as oppose to what we all, God loving individuals, share?
I’m Catholic and a painter. I do not paint by numbers, but by God – I allow him to take my hand and paint small and large strokes. This is a blind way of painting – but so is faith, isn’t it?
You are all my brothers and sisters.
Prov31Dream says:
Funny how such an issue can gather so many who can agree to disagree.
I must say that convictions are what drives us. We just have to ask where are convictions are taking us?
I have a wide range of friends, many of whom are pastors. The most important thing to remember is that ANY “building” that gathers “believers” can be steered by the men (or in some cases women) who lead that flock.
What I am trying to say is that, I have attended Catholic services that were led by a converted Baptist Pastor (and family) which very much resembled a protestant church.
Likewise, I have attended ‘tradition soaked’ protestant “evangelical” churches which had so lost the essence of Grace that I was filled with compassionate tears.
Be inspired to KNOW the GOD of SALVATION, BEFORE you speak about Him.
Find Him for yourself, look in the Living Word…in fact, look at only the life of Jesus if you want. He testified by his every action WHO the FATHER is and how much He loves us.
(No, I am not Catholic. No I am not “from” somewhere of creed.)
No, I PERSONALLY do not believe ALL of any one doctrine.
I am however, in constant communion with a relationship which leads me to the path that worship & fellowship with other Believers is important. The iron should sharpen iron, and I should be challenged by other Christians like Shaun Groves. I desire to be the hands and feet of Jesus, Be the church….but we all must find someplace where we can come together and agree to be transparent, worship God in truth, challenge each other and like it or not SOMEONE WILL LEAD YOU, it is the way of Jesus. (He designed the idea of discipleship, pastors, apostles and teachers.)
What we need to focus on is understanding that some desire to worship in different ways. Does that make them right…ask Jesus if He cares? You may find the real answer He gives you is not what you expect….
He does say, if you love me…He also says Love One Another above all else… but we should also hold each other accountable to the truth that should guide us.
Shaun Groves says:
Spencer, what denomination, if any, do you most closely associate your beliefs with?
Matt says:
Interesting to me that so many postings about this topic, and what’s right/wrong, refer to what’s “written and taught” instead of what God speaks to us directly. I love scripture and church, and I’m sure there’s something positive somewhere about denominational intent, but all of those things can be interpreted (and misinterpreted) in a million ways. Doesn’t anyone seek answers directly from God…one on one? I always find it interesting that when one seeks answers, or wants to hear God speak, the first thing they do is open the Bible, or ask their Pastor, or something of that nature. Here’s a pretty good idea…hit God up FIRST, directly. In His direct voice there is no misinterpretation and no doubt where the answer lies to questions such as this. The problem is too many Christians do not hear His direct voice because they’ve been taught to just refer to what scripture or their pastor says. Say what you want, but EVERY answer you seek will tie back to Jesus’ summary “LOVE God…LOVE others”, plain and simple. The answer to this Catholic/Protestant thing is no different. Great blog Shaun.
Susan Charest says:
Great posting, Matt – it’s really that simple.
Prov31Dream says:
Matt, that is what I was getting at as well.
Ask Him…He will answer you. Know Him and you will know what he cares about…
diane says:
I’m interested, just out of curiosity: How many folks here have read up on the beliefs and praxis of the earliest Christians (early Church history, I mean)? I’m talking about the Didache (parts of which probably date to 40 AD or thereabouts); the letters of Saint Ignatius of Antioch (who knew the Apostles personally and died as a martyr in 107 AD); Pope Saint Clement’s letter to the Corinthians (c. 96 AD); the Against Heresies of Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 180 AD), etc. etc.?
I think you might find that the very early ante-Nicene Church bore very little resemblance to modern evangelicalism.
All of these primary historical documents are available online, BTW.
Thanks…
Diane
diane says:
Spencer: If you would like some “loving” refutations of the book you mention, I would suggest Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, Born Fundamentalism, Born Again Catholic by David Currie, By What Authority? by Mark Shea, and The Biblical Basis for Catholicism (not sure if that’s exaxct title) by Dave Aermstrong. Among many many others. Thanks!!
Diane
(For the record, we do not worship Mary. Or statues, either.
)
Matt says:
By the way I personally love all of you…Catholics, Protestants, and yes even those who practice Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc…not because I’m a Christian and I’m supposed to…but instead because I CHOOSE to. We’re ALL brothers and sisters, and if you think God loves one less than the other based on religious beliefs you may want to consult His advice DIRECTLY (and not theologically)
Blessings all!
Spencer Barfuss says:
I’m not a part of any denomination, but by God’s grace, a member of His body.
I want make a point here that everyone needs to hear. God desires people who worship Him in spirit and in truth. Having a passion for God is great, but not if that passion leads you away from who God is and how He desires to be worshipped. At the same time, a great knowledge of God’s word can lead you away from the passion that God desires us to have in worshipping Him. So, when someone says that we shouldn’t talk about doctrine or anything like that, they don’t understand God’s concern with this. Take a look at Galatians 1, where Paul is addressing those who are teaching a gospel contrary to what he preached, and look at Paul’s reaction to this. Look again in Galatians 3, where he calls them foolish, and then also in Chapter 2 I believe, when he confronts Peter face to face on an issue. So, speaking the truth is a very loving thing to do, even if everyone disagrees with you. And that’s what we’re called to do with the gospel as well, when Jesus commands us to go out and make disciples of all nations. We know that when we speak the truth to people, a sinful, rebellious heart towards God will not want to hear what God has to say to them in His word.
@Matt – God has spoken to us in His word. Yes, we are to listen to Him one-on-one, but always in accordance with His word.
Susan Charest says:
hey, Matt, keep on keeping on. That is “pure” love my friend.
btw, this is one mom that has never blogged so much. Thanks Shaun! Now back outside to enjoy this beautiful God-given day! I have swings to be swung….
so time to jump off this blog..
Peace to you all.
Dan says:
In my lifetime I have been a Messianic Jew, Pentecostal, non-denominational evangelical, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Zen Christian, Quaker, and finally, praise Jesus, Catholic.
Having struggled so long and search so hard for the truth that I’ve found best expressed in Catholicism, it saddens me whenever I encounter a badly catechized cradle Catholic, especially when they’ve left that light of truth out of ignorance.
The Bible is read at every Catholic Mass, in a cycle that does an amazing job of illuminating the relationship between the OT and NT. Catholics do not worship Mary. The Catholic Church does not teach that you are going to hell if you do not profess yourself to be Catholic. The Catholic Church did not add books to the Bible (– rather, Luther removed some). Don’t believe the hype.
diane says:
Amen, Dan!
What he said!
diane says:
To add to Dan’s excellent post: Dave Currie points out in Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic that some 26% of the average Sunday Mass consists of Scripture. There’s generally an OT reading, a psalm, a NT (epistle) reading, and then the Gospel of the day. And that’s not even counting all the Scripture woven throughout the liturgy itself.
I have sat through non-Catholic services where only a teeny snippet or two of Scripture was presented and then expounded upon. Not to make invidious comparisons or anything.
Spencer Barfuss says:
Actually, the Catholic church does teach that those who are not members of it go to hell. Here are some quotes from past popes, who are all fallible by the way.
“The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation” – Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” – Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” – 11th Session of the Council of Florence, under Pope Eugene IV
Here are some quotes specifically from the Vatican Council:
Protestants are often highly offended by the phrase “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” But the statement is no less true. Yet it must be properly understood, because the Church believes there are extenuating ways by which a person can be united to the Church informally. The relevant Catechism paragraphs are as follows:
846 “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
847 “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
14. “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
There’s just a couple of verses that mention this. I included those because I want to drive home that point, that the Catholic church does indeed teach that a Christian that does not become a member of the Catholic church goes to hell.
RevJeff says:
WOW, there hasn’t been this large a comment string on this blog since Shaun confessed to having an “unwelcomed visitor” in his intestinal tract…
BUT still –
What am I going to do with all of my MWS cassettes?
Compassion dave says:
Phew…
Barbara Curtis says:
Diane –
That is exactly what I mean about the misconceptions and myths bandied about by non-Catholics. when God nudged me – completely by surprise – to attend Mass, I was flabbergasted by how different it was from what I had been led to believe in evangelical circles – usually with scorn.
To hear the pure word of God presented as such an important part of Mass – as opposed to listening to an independent non-denominational pastor sharing his interpretation of 2 verses for 30-45 minutes – well, I was amazed!!!
There were many things I balked at as I sat at Mass at first, but God was teaching me to seek Him and His interpretation of what I saw rather than that of man.
I agree that we look to God first for direction. When I became a believer in 1987, I went from radical leftist/counterculture/angry feminist/ Christian-hater to conservative prolife Christian in an instant. I could not have explained to anyone how that happened, nor could I have defended my theology.
When we adopted in succession three children with Down syndrome – after having one of our own (and 8 “normal” kids) I could not have defended what we did by any rational means. But God led us and we obeyed.
When I reverted, I had no intention of dragging my family with me. I fully intended to go to Mass in the morning and accompany my family to the Bible Church we attended – and which we loved (I was not looking to leave when God called me). However, the ugliness of our pastor and the firestorm at my blog caused my husband to begin reading the early church fathers to find the truth for himself. He signed up for RCIA classes and became a Catholic last year at the Easter Vigil.
There are stories galore of converts like us. I personally have no investment in bringing anyone else to the Catholic Church. I completely respect God’s authority in each of our lives.
But by nature in my writing I am a bridge builder and in this case, as someone who has worked for many, many years to inform believers and equip and encourage them to reclaim our culture, I feel compelled to do my small part in reconciling believers to each other so that we may do the work that needs to be done.
Dan says:
To expand upon one of my earlier points, while at the same time bringing it back to Shaun’s original point, the Catholic Church does not say that you’re going to Hell if you don’t profess to be Catholic.
What it does say is that there is no salvation outside of the Church. And an important point that it makes alongside that is that while we know where the Church is, we do not know where the Church is not. That is to say, by “the Church” we are referring to the universal Body of Christ, not the specific manifestation lead by the Pope.
Therefore, it would be more accurate to say that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is available to all Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike, and even to non-Christians who experience a baptism of desire but who, through no fault of their own, do not encounter Christianity!
Matt says:
Spencer, God’s written word was inspired by His spoken word. Our lives should imitate that.
Dan says:
In Spencer’s previous post, 846-848 are from the Catechism while 14 is from Lumen Gentium.
The Catholic Church does not teach that Popes are infallible in every little thing. Only statements concerning dogma spoken ex cathedra are infallible, in every other way a Pope is just as fallible as the rest of us.
Spencer Barfuss says:
If you are referring to the universal Catholic church, then yes, that is true. But the way that someone comes into the church is by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Jesus. But the Catholic church does not teach this. I can list other doctrine quotes that say this specifically.
Again, I point this out because pointing out any false doctrine is the most loving thing we can do when confronted with it. There is a clear difference between what God says and what many Catholic doctrines teach.
Dan says:
Spencer: Keep in mind that when the Council of Florence says “schismatics” that mean heretics, not Protestants.
Dan says:
Spencer: Please do, that I might further show you the error of your understanding in like charity.
Spencer Barfuss says:
is anyone on Skype? I’d love to chat about these things away from this blog. If you are, go ahead and add me: spencerbarf.
Thanks, and talk to you later.
Dan says:
Point. I was just coming back to say we needn’t derail this comment thread with lengthy debunkings of anti-Catholic misconceptions.
We could take it here for starters, perhaps?:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=315887
Dan says:
The point to take away from my contribution is that the Catholic Church considers us all one big family, black sheep and all, and I agree with Shaun that we should all act more like it.
russ rentler, M.D. says:
I was born Catholic but left the Church as a 14 year old and became a devout evangelical Christian for 31 years.
5 years ago I found out what Catholics really believe and was drawn by the Holy Spirit to return to the Church of my youth.
Most of what I and other protestants were told about the Catholic Church are mis-conceptions stoked by blind prejudice. I was taught wrongly about Catholicism by my Protestant bible study leaders and the “catholicism” I was taught to hate and be suspicious of was not even close to what true Catholicism is.
Many of our opinions of Catholicism are based on watching the lives of those who don’t practice it. This can be done with any religion. Protestant preachers for instance, named “jim” seem to have frequent moral issues, jim jones, jim bakker, jimmy swaggart etc. Does that make all Protestants with the name Jimmmy morally corrupt? Of course not. None of us can judge a religion based on watching the lives on those who don’t practice it.
Any way, getting to my point, we Catholics believe the creed. We believe in Christ for our salvation through grace. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. But we also believe that our salvation has to work itself out in acts of love as Paul clearly tells us, and Jesus makes it very clear that He will separate the sheep and the goats in the end based on what we did and didn’t do. Matt 25.
If someone can show me where the Bible says we are saved by faith alone, I will convert tomorrow to protestantism…(again)! However, the only place that scripture puts the words faith and alone together is in James chapter 2 when it is made clear that we are not saved by faith alone.
Luther wished to remove James from the bible, and he said “I would like to throw Jimmy in the stove, for it is an epistle of straw.” Now that’s no way to regard the Word of God!
I have a brief summary of why I believe the Catholic Church is true. Please feel free to check out this video
God bless all here and please keep an open mind and heart to what God may be telling you about the Catholic Church.
Dan says:
Well, it depends on your translation. Luther inserted the word “alone” in his translation of Romans 3:28, and he was not the first to do so.
russ rentler, M.D. says:
Good point Dan!
What gives Luther or others the authority to add to the words of Scripture? Revelation teaches us that we are not to add nor subtract from the Word of God.
Removing books from the Bible and adding words to make it agree with your own theology certainly falls under the interdict of Revelation.
Spencer Barfuss says:
@russ rentler,M.D. – I really haven’t been taught much at all by Protestants about the Catholic church because I grew up in the Catholic church and went to Catholic schools my whole life up until college. But what I can see from the Roman Catholic church doctrine are many things that are not in accordance with what God says in His Word.
In reference to what the Catholic church teaches about salvation, they do teach a works-based salvation in the sense that they believe that the work of Christ alone does not save. The Roman Catholic church teaches that you must be a member of their church (not the universal body as mentioned above), you must be baptized, never commit a mortal sin, participate in 7 sacraments in life, pray the rosary, perform in lots of meritorious works, and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory, and then you might be saved. Paul essentially says in Galatians 2:22 that if doing any of those things could save us or give us merit or be justified before God, then Christ died for nothing! So, this is a very important issue, and unfortunately, the Roman Catholic church does teach this.
In reference to James 2, he’s not saying that our works save us. This would contradict Romans 3:28, all of Romans 4,5,6, and all of the Old Testament. But it is saying that a person’s faith is displayed in doing. This is evidence that there is faith, just as Romans 4 expounds upon in explaining how Abraham was justified by faith before he had done anything good, even before he was circumcised. But it’s not the works that save us, that is very clear from Scripture. Some people have genuine faith; others have an empty profession of faith that is not real. Does that make sense?
I’d still love to continue this conversation with anyone who wants to on Skype: spencerbarf. That’s my username.
Amanda says:
I wish more people would focus on the life and teachings of Jesus and not just what He accomplished in His death….maybe then we’d all be a bit better human beings, not just jerks going to heaven. (This is a little tongue in cheek- but not entirely).
I would trade both my theology degrees from highly accredited conservative baptist institutions (which mean next to nothing when it comes to this love affair I have with Jesus) for a more renovated heart that is so entirely radical people wouldn’t dare call me a Christian because my Jesus-life looks so foreign from what we know as Christianity.
Spencer Barfuss says:
Amanda, I echo those thoughts. Nothing compares to our love affair with Jesus. But there was such a fight in the early church to protect true doctrine from false doctrine. God wants us to worship Him in spirit and truth. False doctrine leads to living in a way that does not glorify God and puts an unnecessary yoke on us. True doctrine sets us free to live a life that rightly glorifies God. Just a knowledge of true doctrine does not please God, and that’s clear from Scripture. He wants our lives to reflect that true doctrine. Look at Paul’s response in Galatians 1 to those who preach a different gospel than the one that he preached, or his response to Jews who wanted to add just one thing to the gospel (circumcision).
These doctrines must be fought for because in the last days, there will be people who don’t want to agree with sound doctrine, but want their ears to be tickled.
Dan says:
I don’t have skype.
You’re still wrong about Catholic teachings on salvation, Spencer. Here is an essay about the matter, and the Church’s excommunication of a very popular writer and priest for claiming that only Catholics are saved:
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=674&CFID=328197&CFTOKEN=68194782
Spencer Barfuss says:
The fate of non-Catholics, as expressed after Vatican II:
– The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), deals with the relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to non-Catholics in Topics 839 to 845.
Some points are:
– 839: Followers of other religions are referred to as “Those who have not yet received the gospel…” The implication is that they will eventually become united with the Roman Catholic Church.
– 839 to 841: The Roman Catholic Church has a special relationship to Jews and Muslims because of the common reverence for the patriarch Abraham.
– 843: Other religions contain “goodness and truth” which are “a preparation for the Gospel.”
– 845: God wishes to “reunite all his children,” of all religions who are “scattered and led astray by sin…together into” the Catholic Church.
– “ ‘Dominus Iesus’ on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church” was published on 2000-AUG-6 by Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was released on SEP-5. The document had been ratified and confirmed by the Pope John Paul II on JUN-16 “with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority.” 10 The document appears to have been triggered by the growth in acceptance of “relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism.” 12 It states that:
– “The full revelation of divine truth is given” in the “mystery of Jesus Christ.” No additional revelation is expected in the future.
– Elements of Christianity were placed in other religions by the Holy Spirit.
– Jesus is the only savior of mankind.
– All who are saved achieve this status through the Roman Catholic Church.
– Salvation is possible to those who are not Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox.
– The prayers and rituals of other religions may help or hinder their believers. Some practices may prepare their membership to absorb the Gospel. However, those rituals which “depend on superstitions or other errors… constitute an obstacle to salvation.”
Again, I mention these to point out the teachings from the Roman Catholic church. As long as the traditions of men are held up as the authority on truth for the Catholic church, there will always be problems compared to what God says in Scripture.
Dan says:
Having posted that, how can you claim that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is impossible for those who are not Catholic? It directly contradicts that.
The Catholic Church contains a store of truth, dogma. It acknowledges that other faiths also contain some truth.
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. All others were founded by men.
diane says:
Dan: Thank you for fighting the good fight!! Some folks really don’t want to be confused with the facts.
But it is charitable and necessary to keep on pointing out those facts, anyway.
Spencer: Quick question: What do you think Paul means when he says, “Hold fast to the traditions handed down to you, whether in written form or orally”? Do you think that, perhaps, the Bible might be making a distinction between authentic Sacred Tradition (paradosis) and the “traditions of men”? (There are several places in the NT, BTW, where Tradition—paradosis—is spoken of favorably. Jesus does not condemn GOD-given Tradition. He condemns only the “traditions of men.” There’s a difference—and that difference is Biblical.)
Barbara Curtis: WOW!!! What an AWESOME testimony. God bless you, my sister!
russ rentler, M.D. says:
In order to clarify a few things our brother Spence said, I have posted the following explanations of each of his points:
“The Roman Catholic church teaches that you must be a member of their church (not the universal body as mentioned above)”
This is false information. Here is what the Catholic Church says about our Protestant brothers and sisters:
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”
So to say that you must be member of a Catholic to be saved is not true!
“participate in 7 sacraments in life”
Again this is not true. Catholics believe that Jesus instituted the 7 sacraments of the Church and they are the normative way in which God pours his grace out on us, starting of course with Baptism. Jesus said “preach the gospel to all the world baptizing them in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit .” Peter told the crowd in Acts when they asked “what must I do to be saved? The answer: repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. This promise is for you and your children!”
So yes, we Catholics believe Christ works through the sacraments he initiated, however God is not bound by His sacraments and can work outside of them. Ie, the thief on the cross, etc.
For 1500 years Christians believed that baptism was necessary for salvation. Unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he can’t see the kingdom of God.(jn3)1 Peter says “the waters of baptism doth save you.” So we Catholics are on firm footing when we insist on baptism as being necessary for salvation. (of course faith is an essential part of this) Even Calvin and Luther agreed that baptism was not symbolic but conferred grace.
“Never commit a mortal sin”
Again this is untrue. Many Catholics commit mortal sins and still get to heaven. A mortal sin kills the life of grace in our souls. (Do you know many adulterers and pornographers are living victorious lives in Christ? No, they are in danger of spiritual death, because they have chosen to walk away from God ) John says in 1 John, there is a sin that leads to death (morte) and we Catholics believe that if we die with un-confessed mortal sin on our souls , we forfeit our salvation. However, through the wonderful sacrament of reconciliation(confession) that Jesus gave His Church upon rising from the dead (He breathed on them and gave them the holy Spirit saying whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven ”) we have a remedy for mortal sin. (John 20:22)
So when a Catholic commits mortal sin, the remedy is sacramental confession to a priest. “Confess your sins one to another so you may be healed,” as James tells us.
So yes, the sacraments help Catholics in their journey to heaven, and they are the normative, scriptural way for Christians to “work out” their salvation as Paul says.
I tried to live as a devout Christian for 31 years, and believe you me, since I have received the grace of God through the Eucharist and confession, he has given me much victory over sin in my life I didn’t have before. You can’t argue with what has happened in my life through the sacraments. They have brought me much closer to Christ than I have ever been before.
”Pray the rosary”
Again Spence, this is not true. Praying the rosary you contemplate the life and works of Christ through the eyes of his Mom and you ask her to pray for you, but praying the rosary is not a requirement to go to heaven. Sheesh Spence! Where did you learn this stuff?
”Perform in lots of meritorious works”
Jesus makes it clear as well as Paul, you can’t live like the devil and still get to heaven!
Matt 25 says that at final judgment, it is our works that will separate the goats from the sheep. That’s right from Jesus. So the performance of “works”, which are deeds done in love, certainly is important. We don’t do them to get to heaven, but we can’t get to heaven without them! If you love Jesus, you will want to do them any way. Wouldn’t you? John says: (Revelation 14:12-13) “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
So clearly we need the faith of Jesus and the commandments. To separate faith from works is a false paradigm that Jesus never taught. Paul spoke of works of the law that Pharisees did to make themselves justified. That is not good works as Jesus in Matt 25 and John in Revelations speaks about. Paul says in 2Corinthians 5 we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and receive good or evil according to what he has done in his body. So works are important and “meritorious” in that sense.
“and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory, and then you might be saved”
Catholics believe that without holiness, one can’t be in the presence of God. When we die, we are still imperfect and have the effects of sin (though forgiven) still with us. Purgatory is a cleansing of that stench of sin so we can appear before our Savior pure. CS Lewis believed in and wrote about purgatory. “Our souls demand it” he said.
Purgatory is not a 2nd chance for salvation. When you die, you are either going to heaven or hell. Most of us who hope to go to heaven will likely need some purging of our imperfections before we embrace our dear Savior. The early Church believed in purgatory and asked for prayers to be said for the departed, just as the Jews had, one generation before them. The book of Maccabees (that Luther removed) had verses that supported the concept of praying for those in purgatory .
Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1).
“then you might be saved”
Catholics don’t make the presumption they are saved but have hope as did Paul that we will run the race and win the crown of life. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
Again, in his letter to the believers living in Rome and “called to be saints” he writes: “Do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity towards those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness: otherwise you too will be cut off.” Rom. 11:20
So Catholics are like Paul and attempt to live a life of faith so that after preaching to others, we ourselves are not disqualified from heaven. If Paul makes that statement himself, far be it from me to march around declaring “I know I am saved.”
Sorry to run long on this com box, but I hope others can see that the comments made by Spence are just patently incorrect. I trust that his statements were not intended to be maliciously false, but he clearly had an inadequate Catholic education, which is not uncommon.
Before criticizing what Catholics believe, please look into it from Catholic sources, such as the Catechism.
God bless
Amanda says:
Do you think, maybe, we’ve gotten a bit off topic? I don’t think Shaun (though I could be wrong) was trying to make some magnanimous absolution of all things Catholic (or any denomination or tradition for that matter).
I think his original post stands for itself, but what is happening now is that many are arguing that Catholics aren’t saved based of documents and doctrine issued and espoused from the Roman Catholic church…but truth be told people can be within a denomination or tradition and not hold to some or several of its key tenants…happens all the time. The average pew sitter would be appalled at many of the things they are claiming to believe just by being a part of that particular local body.
Also, the issue of salvation (even within protestantism) is up for discussion and the salvation Shaun is talking about might be different (at least more kaleidoscopic) than what you, who are so vociferously discussing doctrine, are talking about.
Just a suggestion (about the being off-topic).
russ rentler, M.D. says:
The issue of salvation is very important and thus as a Catholic, I feel it’s only fair to present the view of it from the Catholic Church’s point of view.
People can’t start to discuss Catholicism fairly without first understanding what it is that Catholics truly believe. I am so passionate about this because I was like Spence and left the Church never knowing what it was Catholics taught. Now having found it later in life, I feel I have found the “pearl of great price”, a treasure that’s always been at my feet, but I couldn’t see it because of my pride.
God can change lives in the Catholic Church and if our brothers and sisters were willing to see it, we would not have
all of these misconceptions abounding.
Spencer Barfuss says:
@russ your post is really long, and I’d love to address all of them, but I’d really like to voice chat about these things since I won’t have time to address them. Add me on Skype: spencerbarf.
In regards to getting off topic, I guess we have a little bit. I’m not saying that there are not Catholics who are Christian, but the teachings of the Catholic church contradict what God says in His word. I’d love to discuss them with anyone who is willing.
compassion dave says:
trbvvv
Dan says:
Russ :: Bless you.
Spense :: I don’t see what you could possibly have to say after that. I think you’re misunderstandings have been pretty well cleared up.
Seth Ward says:
I find it best, when addressing any different religion or faith, to read and study from the actual faith’s documents, rather than someone’s straw man version.
But even then, when walk into something like Catholicism and you are LOOKING for proof that justifies your theories, rather than hoping for things that would not, you might only being seeing what you want to see.
For instance, on might see a Christian in prayer, asking Mary or any Saint or deceased Christian to pray for them and think that that Christian is somehow praying TO the saint, therefore practicing idolatry. Then one might be tempted to run out to the nearest Lifeway and buy 8 books on Mary worship, rather than read what the Catholics are ACTUALLY doing.
Thank you Russ for presenting the truth there in a kind tone. It wasn’t too long. There were a lot of whoppers to address and thanks for taking the time to address them.
jimmyd3 says:
Thank you Kees –
“The word “believe” comes from the Greek word PISTEUO, which means to trust in, to depend upon or to rely upon.”
It reminded me that it’s great to flex our intellectual muscles and find the perfect reasoning to justify our “beliefs” and it’s great to “feel so in love with Jesus” with our emotions but Jesus really said believe in me (TRUST ME!) which involves all parts of us. Many Catholics and many non-Catholics do this and have life.
Kees Boer says:
We got to take things in context.
First of all, Paul boasted in the cross of Christ. I would never want to take any emphasis away from the cross of Christ and put it on the way I live.
Second of all, The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This is where the emphasis again lays not on me, but on Christ.
Third, about James 2. A good crossreference is Rom. 4:4,5. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, because It is written by God. So, how does it say in Rom. 4, that Abraham was justified solely by faith and then James 2 by works. The key is in the context. Rom. 4 discussing justification before God. Just read the preceding passages and what follows. James 2 talks about justification before men. That’s why it uses phrases like: “Show me your works….” The first 13 verses of James 2 are also clearly dealing with that.
Kees
Geneva says:
When we left the Catholic church, we were “mistreated” by a number of Catholic acquaintances. “Mistreated” really isn’t the word for it… I believe they were truly concerned for our souls. We received more than one letter begging us to come back to Jesus. Demonizing other denominations seems to be something numerous denominations do.
For the record, I believe true believers attend all manner of denominational churches. Catholic included.
russ rentler, M.D. says:
Regarding James and Paul. Catholics agree that the scriptures should be interpreted in light of scripture and we don’t pit Jesus against Paul or James against Paul. We believe in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for our salvation but we also continue to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” It is both/and not either/or.
Again the words “faith alone” are not found in Scripture except when referring to “we are not saved by faith alone.” To say that James is referring only to a “justification before men” is a novel interpretation of that scripture and doesn’t gel with the rest of scripture.
Let’s all agree that we are saved by grace alone through faith(not alone)and not by the works of the law(circumcision etc). When Paul talked about the works of the law, keep in mind the context of his audience. He was referring to the Judaizers and those who insisted on circumcision for the Gentiles to become Christians. He was not talking about good works, acts of charity.
“ Catholics insist that James 2:14–26 shows that works are more than mere evidence of faith. Works actually justify. James is speaking about works growing out of faith. If works of faith are not a part of our justification, then it is hard to understand why James would say, as he does, that “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (Jas. 2:21). You may remember how Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith. Paul means that Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law, while James means that Abraham was justified by doing a work that grew out of his faith in God.”
(from Kenneth Howell on the Catholic Answers website)
Veretax says:
Russ,
I disagree, I believe what both Paul and James are saying is that those of the True faith will bear fruit. It is not a question of if they bear it, or if they must bear it to be saved. If they are saved, They will bear fruit.
Why? because those of the True faith are a new creature in Christ and no longer walk after the Flesh of this earth, but walk by Spirit.