Shaun Groves
The more I learn about the bible the more I realize isn’t actually in it and so the less I have to get upset about.
Someone I respect a great deal told me how much she wished her pastor gave an invitation every Sunday. She’s older and wiser than I am. She’s someone who’s given me answers when I’ve needed them. We know each other well, I’m very comfortable with her, so when I’m with her I just speak without thinking. I told her I didn’t have a beef with invitations really but that they’re not in the bible so they’re not essential I guess. Praying a prayer to become a Christian isn’t in the bible either. There’s not a formula for salvation either other than “repent and believe” or “sell your possessions and give to the poor” or “you must be born again.” Also absent are the four spiritual laws, grouped together in four easy steps. No “first admit this, then believe that, now say this, now you’re going to heaven.” Jesus doesn’t even talk much about going to heaven, though it certainly exists. So, Jesus never gave an invitation, not like the one I grew up seeing every Sunday, not like the one my friend wants to see more of. Not ever.
And when the conversation was over I felt two things. I felt like, in all the excitement over what I’ve learned gradually over the last decade, I’d said too much all at once. And I also felt like I’d peed on the cross, like I’d done something very heretical and wrong.
Becky and my dad have been reading The Shack and it’s got us talking a lot about how we and those we know have reacted to some of the more unorthodox ideas in it – about how we’re to react in general to ideas that differ in big and small ways from our preconceived notions about God (or politics or parenting or health). Some people won’t start the book. They’ve heard it’s heretical, that God is a woman, a black woman who cooks greens and, well, that’s just nonsense. Others have started it but quit when the ideas got “weird” or they started to doubt their own and got scared. And some people, like my dad, finish it and fearlessly ponder.
Seth Godin, a marketing leader and accidental theologian, writes in his newest book Tribes that fundamentalism is the opposite of curiosity. He says “A fundamentalist is a person who considers whether a fact is acceptable to his religion before he explores it.” He says a curious person “explores first and then considers whether or not he wants to accept the ramifications.”
The more curious I become the more unorthodox I discover my previously orthodox beliefs to be, the more unbiblical my so-called biblical traditions are. And the more I learn about why they persist anyway, despite not being truly biblical or orthodox. Last night, Gabriella (age 8) started asking me some tough questions about heaven and hell and what it means to be a Christian. I was so tempted to do to her what was was done to me. It would have been easy to ask her if she wanted to go to hell or heaven and then lead her in a prayer when she said – as any sane person would – that she prefers the perfection of heaven to burning for eternity. It’s harder to put eight-year-old words to ideas I’ve only begun to understand as an adult.
These are the uncomfortable ramifications of thinking heretically, of being curious.
Grovesfan says:
I’m not sure I understand why questioning the teachings of man in church (little c, not The C)is heresy; or maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say.
I think there’s a huge difference in exploring and studying the Bible to find the answers God has revealed therein and searching it with suspicion or wrong motives.
There’s an insurmountable danger in blindly accepting whatever comes from anyone in a pulpit just because he’s there and has some sort of title. That’s what cults are made of.
It is hard to explain eternal things and things of faith to kids; not has hard as it is to cynical adults however.
I believe that the gospel lays out some pretty clear instructions for salvation that tend to be made more difficult by man’s constant desire to put God in some sort of box.
As for “The Shack,” I read it and found it interesting, but certainly lacking in doctrinal accuracy. The biggest one for me was the fact that “God” says that there is no need for God to punish sin because the resulting guilt is punishment enough. That is DEFINITELY contrary to scripture in every way imaginable. There are other concerns too, but that was the biggest one for me. It’s subtly buried too, so casual reading, or reading by someone not well versed in scripture, could easily miss it or worse, think it’s true.
Beth
Anne Jackson says:
I accidentally met the author of The Shack when I was in Atlanta (I really thought he was Jesus for the longest time until he told me his name). I had never read the book. But I finally did. And after getting to spend a few minutes with him (before and after knowing who he is)…I can honestly say I think that book is more truth than fiction.
But I just might be heretical.
I’ll find out one day.
Ron Woods says:
A) I loved “The Shack.” I “met” God in a similar (though invisible) way and fell in love with Him. It freed me. It changed my life, my faith, my understanding of the Word. It didn’t change the Word at all. But it changed my preconceptions that, as you pointed out quite aptly, often needed changing. Like for instance … I finally realized that God isn’t mad at me and just saving me because, hey, if He doesn’t no one else will.
B) I’m one of “those pastors” that give invitations most Sundays and pray prayers with people that want to know Jesus. And while I don’t think there is anything wrong with those things (especially the latter) I also don’t have the slightest idea about how to change some of the other ideas … like the former. At least without paying a price, or incurring a price for the church I serve, that just isn’t worth incurring.
dean says:
the sort of curious thinking you’re talking about has led me to at least 2 realizations of things i’ve hung on to (or at least the way i’ve understood those things). one is about Christmas (which you also addressed a while back, and while i didn’t agree with all of it, i was on the same page as you for a lot of it)… and the other one i’d just as soon not mention lest this post be hijacked by the ensuing firestorm (and no, it isn’t anything like doubting the virgin birth, or Jesus’ diety or ANYTHING like that)… but it’s significant enough that i’ve been severely chastised by a number of close friends and associates.
i can’t wait to have some more myths busted…
( i just wanted to check out your smilies there…
Marcus Lynn says:
While I consider myself “orthodox” (who admits being a heretic?), I’m 1 of those pastors who doesn’t present an invitation EVERY WEEK. I do many times but not every week. We’re not a mega church so I know everyone except new guests. I’ve been a part of many a person’s decision to follow Christ, but never once has someone walked in off the street before meeting anyone in our church and committed to Christ where I’ve been. It’s always been done in context of relationships with me or other church members.
Molly says:
I guess those of us who have read Tribes admit to being a heretic…in that book, it isn’t such a bad thing
Turning 40 has turned a lot of my personal “beliefs” right on their ear.
When I read The Shack, I knew that it wasn’t “doctrinally accurate” but that didn’t matter to someone (more than just me) who for so long aligned “the Church” with “God” and they were hurt or rejected by one…they assumed it was the other too.
For those people, there is a lot of healing in a big ole black women named God. (and a carpenter and a hippie)
Jen says:
This post describes exactly what I’m going through. I’m learning how to ask questions about my faith and the way I live it out. It’s a constant evaluation of “why am I doing what I’m doing” and “why is my church doing what it’s doing” while at the same time making sure that I don’t swing to the opposite end of the spectrum and become skeptical or judgemental of those who continue to practice their “orthodox” faith.
As a Christian school teacher, I deal with high schoolers who constantly are asking questions about their faith. As one who grew up hearing and speaking “Christianese”, I’ve learned how important it is not to give the “Christian” answer and move on (even though that would be easier). Instead, I try really hard to answer their questions while at the same time encouraging them to search for themselves. I want it to become their faith. Not my faith (or the school, or their church’s or their parents)faith that they’re living out. It’s a tricky thing.
Tina says:
Your comments about your daughter bring up my struggle with my 5 year old son. Yet I keep being reminded we’re to have faith like a child. Do I over think it, make it too hard? I have no answers, I’m struggling with how to do this!
Texas in Africa says:
The realization that the journey mattered at least as much as (and probably more) than an instant of a decision I made at age 11 completely rocked my world at 20.
I’m fascinated by the idea that Jesus’ command to the rich young ruler to sell everything and give his cash to the poor something that only the young ruler was called to do. As you probably know, Rich Mullins was fond of pointing out to those people that Jesus also only told one guy he needed to be born again.
I wonder why we focused in on the one and not the other, why we made it so formulaic to commit to “salvation,” but decided it’s a “special calling” to commit to living simply in order to follow Christ fully?
Amy @ My Friend Amy says:
I need to read The Shack. I have been putting it off because the writing is apparently not great, not because of the controversy.
What I find frustrating is how people worry about how there might be things in the Shack that are blasphemy and might lead people astray instead of focusing on why people are so drawn to it. Books should be conversations. Same with the Da Vinci Code. And Harry Potter. Fiction seems to terrify some Christians.
jenn says:
I just finished reading The Shack and I didn’t pick over every sentence to see what was right or wrong with it. I just read it like any book and enjoyed it. My opinion was that it can’t be too bad, because the end result was that it made me crave a closer relationship with Jesus.
Toby Taff says:
Shaun, I made the transition from Fundamentalist to heretic over the past 6 years or so. I too have been challenged, especially by the social ramifications of the gospel that the modern church has ignored, except when it meant they could count more people on the roles, and I too now struggle with how to explain faith to my children apart from the formulas I grew up with. I tend to focus on the relationship between God and humanity with my kids, and when I preach, and I hope they grow up curious rather than as fundamentalists.
Stretch Mark Mama says:
I read Brian McLaren’s books back when they first came out, and they pretty much destroyed most of the 1, 2, 3 concepts I had about Christianity.
I still don’t have my head wrapped around the whole “prayer of salvation” thing (all that you had listed above), which makes it Really Hard when talking with my kids. We’re muddling through, but it’s nothing like it would have been back in my more black-and-white days.
leslie says:
First, what is your opinion on the age a child should accept Christ as their savior? I wonder about a child being mature enough to make that sort of decision when I can’t even get mine to remember to wash behind their ears.
Secondly, I read The Shack and was incredibly moved. Fiction or reality, it left me with an insatiable hunger for more. It brought me back to my relationship with God after turning my back on Him about 5 years prior. Although I know God is just, I also see Him as comforting and caring. I viewed the author’s portrayal of God as a grandmotherly type. What’s more comforting that granny cooking a big meal for you? If you’re looking for doctrine, don’t go to the fiction section. If you’re looking for that warm, fuzzy feeling, this is the book for you!
Molly says:
(steping back into the conversation)
With what Leslie said:
“Fiction or reality, it left me with an insatiable hunger for more. It brought me back to my relationship with God after turning my back on Him about 5 years prior. “
AND this is what I tell people when they start being all uppity. IF it brings one person closer to God. ONE. Then what is wrong with it.
I have yet to hear one person question their belief in God from reading the shack, but more HOW they express it.
How can that be bad?
(see heretic)
Donna says:
I have a problem with the whole “prayer to accept Jesus” thing. Your faith is not a “one-time” shot, you’ve prayed, now you’re going to heaven. It’s supposed to be a life-long walk with the Lord, a relationship lived and learned in every moment of your daily life. I’m very familiar with the 4 steps, etc., but that’s not how we’re teaching our three children. They have always known that they are children of God, and they do believe that Jesus died on the cross to be their Savior, and that we are to live to glorify the God who made us and put us on earth. It doesn’t need to be a “date, time and place when you first accepted Christ”…it should be your total being and define who you are and your purpose in life.
Shannon says:
Last month my youngest son “accepted Jesus into his heart.” At least, that’s what I would’ve called it years ago, but I think of it much differently now. My son’s prayer was (I hope and believe) more an awakening to a truth that was established before the foundations of the earth; namely that my boy belongs to Him.
E-Jayjo says:
I really liked this post. I’ve been going through some of the same thought processes myself. I grew up always thinking you had to have an invitation, and if there wasn’t one then it was not a good church, etc., etc. Later on, I went on church “witnessing” trips where we’d knock on doors and ask people if they wanted to go to heaven or hell when they died. Like you said, who is really going to say they want to go to hell, but just having them repeat some words does not change anything. It has to be a heart and soul change, not just saying words. I was always worried I might say the words wrong and someone might not get saved because I goofed it up. I look back on that time now with a lot of angst, because I remember how bound I felt and now know that it is a miracle if any of those “conversions” were authentic…
I really liked the comparison of fundamentalists and the curious that you quoted. That is great!
Michael says:
What did you say to your daughter?
Shawn says:
Shaun,
I am cyrrently reading the Shack (almost done with it) and one thing i have to point out is, if everyone would get off their butt and stop pushing this as a TRUTH book and focus on what it really is (A FICTION BOOK) then life would go on and people would be happy. I am so angry with people that keep putting statements out there that “THE TRUTH OF GOD IS NOT IN THIS BOOK” when they are clearly reading books of fiction like this one and the Davinci Code. People need to get it in their heads, when it comes to reading stuff. Do you believe every thing you read? The newspapare makes me crack up daily, because of the garbage that is printed in it. Same thing with some of the NEWS on TV. Why don’t we all focus on the TRUTH (The Bible) and come back to reality. Boy…i sound angry in this post..trust me, I’m not an angry person. Just ask tracy (Your Friendly Denist Lady)…she’ll tell you!
Bonnie says:
First of all, the number of quotation marks in the preceding comments is quite funny to me. =)
Second of all, being a fundamentalist isn’t so bad. I disagree with Godin and I think, also with you Shaun. I havn’t read the book, so I want to be careful not to characterize either of you in a way that is not truthful. The Scriptures warn us to guard our hearts and minds, to always be ready with an answer for the hope, and to defend the faith against true heresy (the type that isn’t so easy to see but slowly undermines the truth of the Gospel) If being a fundamentalist means filtering everything that I see, hear, and read through a worldview based on the truth of Scriptures, than I’m going to stick with it. If curiosity means placing Truth on the shelf until I finish reading The Shack, or Harry Potter (which I absolutely love!) than I don’t think that is a responsible way to learn or teach our children. My father taught us at a very young age to be discerning, and we watched movies and read books that sparked family discussions about what the authors or screenwriters believed and how it lined up with Scripture. I grew up on Star Wars and knew at 5 and 6 years old the fundamental tenets of the New Age movement. I wasn’t taught about The Force first, I was taught Truth first and used Truth to discern the world around me.
As far as the issue of salvation, my father (who happens to be a professor at a Southern Baptist seminary in Texas and as fundamental as they get =)) prayed with me as a 6 year old for Christ to forgive me of my sins and to come live in my heart. It was a moment of my realization that I was a sinner and that I wasn’t enough. He taught me later on in life that salvation was a process, and helped me through many moments of doubt and fear. He didn’t think it was appropriate to tell a young child that salvation was a process, but instead called the “asking Jesus into your heart” moment a “nail it down moment” that is more for our sakes than for anything else. It’s a moment to remember how we need Christ and our realization of our sinful hearts. I hope that helps you a little Shaun as you struggle to help your daughter understand salvation.
Grovesfan says:
“The Scriptures warn us to guard our hearts and minds, to always be ready with an answer for the hope, and to defend the faith against true heresy (the type that isn’t so easy to see but slowly undermines the truth of the Gospel) If being a fundamentalist means filtering everything that I see, hear, and read through a worldview based on the truth of Scriptures, than I’m going to stick with it.”
I completely agree.
I read fiction on a fairly regular basis and take it for what it is; fiction. I don’t hold it to the same standards as non-fiction.
My “beef” if you will with “The Shack” (I really enjoyed reading it too!) isn’t that I’m worried Christians who read it will question their doctrinal beliefs, etc. My concern is that some new or young believers who may not have a sound Biblical foundation, etc. may not understand some of the subtleties of doctrine (ie: “God doesn’t punish sin; the guilt is punishment enough), or that non-believers who read that may think that this is a fact about God and sin, rather than the fiction it’s designed to be.
Satan is so very crafty in his ways and discernment is a vital and constantly necessary skill that Christians must always use in EVERYTHING.
As for McLaren, that’s a whole other subject with the Emergent Church, etc. Some very good reads, but again, seriously flawed in Biblical accuracy in many places.
E-Jayjo says:
I just had another thought about the fact that so many people are scared the Shack will lead people astray who are not grounded in scripture, etc. Who is bigger…God or the devil? If we trust God to guide us, then why do we have to be scared of going astray? Shouldn’t we believe that if we or others are seeking truth and the Truthgiver, that he will reveal that truth to us? We try to put too many restrictions on people and not enough trust…trust in them and trust in God, who is bigger than all of us, including the boogey-man.
Dawn~Canada says:
PANDORA’S BOX!! And I’m piggy-backing off of it on my blog. So from one curious digger to another, I salute you. (Metaphorically). Keep digging.
Happy Geek says:
I too am curious as to what you told your daughter.
I remember very clearly in high school a friend who was very into wicca telling me that she asked Jesus into her heart every summer at camp and it didn’t make much of a difference.
It was at that moment that I began to question things just a little.
I have read the Shack. While I agree that it is fiction, it also is insanely popular and is shaping people’s veiw of God. Which is fine if it helps them understand His infinite love, but I feel that it misses the boat on encompassing His whole character as well as confusing the issue on the Diety of Jesus.
But I agree with you, it’s a bit dangerous to discount something one has not even read.
Shelley says:
I recently bought “The Shack”, which was recommended to me. I haven’t started it yet.
Anyway, just wanted to say I think this might be my first time here and I enjoyed your post. I’ll bookmark you and come back again!
Terrace Crawford says:
Shaun, I’m learning the same stuff! Well said bro.
–Terrace Crawford
http://www.terracecrawford.com
http://www.twitter.com/terracecrawford
leslie says:
Shaun,
You’ve been blessed with “Blog Love”. Check out your award on my blog.
Biblefanmaryann says:
I’ve been trying to be a little more curious lately. A certain wise friend of mine said it would make me good student of the Bible. I’m still scared of being exposed to heretical things though. I guess it’s good to have both curiosity and fear, to keep things balanced.
I understand the difficult situation of being told one thing by people who are older and wiser than you in most things, yet wanting to find out for yourself if something is really a moral issue or just a personal judgment that someone made up.
How do you keep your curiosity and honor your elders at the same time, when your elders are forcing their personal convictions on you?
Jonathan says:
I haven’t read “The Shack”, but it is on my list of books to read because a very solid Christian man that I respect a lot recommended it to me.
After reading some of the comments, I decided to comment and then saw the comment from E-Jayjo which basically has my thoughts in it. God is powerful, and He will make sure that if people are seeking Him, they will find Him. We can be sure of that.
There are a lot of things that Christians can find questionable to take part in. Take yoga for example (http://stufffchristianslike.blogspot.com/2008/11/440-not-knowing-what-to-do-with-yoga.html). I think people need to take responsibility for their own lives but not push their convictions on others. I for one am completely comfortable doing yoga and being a Christian. I am sure I would be fine reading “The Shack” as well. If people feel that they should avoid a book, or an exercise, or whatever because it would lead them away from God, then they should talk to the Lord about it and be secure in the fact that they are seeking the Lord’s face. The other people who read the book or do the exercise and talk to the Lord about it should also be secure if they are seeking the Lord’s face.
Bonnie says:
Grovesfan,
You pretty much said what I wanted to say, but ran out of room for. =)
“God doesn’t punish sin; the guilt is punishment enough”
The line that has been quoted from The Shack has so many implications about the atonement of Christ,the justice of God, and our need for a Savior. If people are not discerning and let statements like that form their view of Christ, than it becomes a very big deal.
Anyways, I digress. Great post Shaun.
Brian Horton says:
Ejayo:
We trust in God by trusting in his word which he gave us. There is no ambiguous personal guiding force that will lead you, me, or anyone else to truth. Do we have the Holy Spirit? Absolutely. However, the Holy Spirit can only work with what you know to be truth from God’s word. God is not going to reveal new truth to any one of us. You stray dangerously close to Gnosticism.
E-Jayjo says:
Brian Horton:
Wow…I didn’t know my comment ever mentioned Star Wars!! The bible does say that all who seek Him will find Him (referring to God…not Buddha, Yogi Berra or Allah). And yes, I’m talking about being led by the Holy Spirit, not an “ambigious personal guiding force.” Label me what you will, but I’m confident in my relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I would rather “err” on the side of trusting the voice of God than to truly err by doubting His ability to lead me.
Going back to Shaun’s post, I choose to be one of the curious rather than a fundamentalist.
Ray says:
Brian Horton,
Please don’t take what I’m about to say personally; I am simply responding to what I continue to see within the Body of Christ, and that is in my opinion, a misuse of Scripture as a substitute for the role of the Holy Spirit. To say that “We trust in God by trusting in his word which he gave us” to me is simply an example of embracing a concept that we have heard passed down without truly understanding it’s implications. If we are going to say that Scripture is the “final authority,” wouldn’t it be good to examine what Scripture itself says? Instead, I have heard this idea repeated time and again, and yet the funny thing to me is that I never see this idea of Scripture as the only way God speaks even mentioned in the New Testament (the Scripture itself!). As a matter of fact, Hebrews 1:1-2 seems to say that God’s final word to us is Jesus Himself, not necessarily the Scriptures. It actually says that it was “in times past” that God spoke to us through the prophets (or you could say through the Scriptures, for these were the writings of the prophets), but that now He has spoken (and, through the Spirit, continues to speak) through His Son. What does the Son say about the role of the Holy Spirit?
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” & “He will tell you things to come.”
What else did the Son say? In John 5:39-40, He said that knowing the Scriptures did not equate to knowing Him. Even though the Pharisees had memorized Genesis to Malachi, Jesus said that they were still missing the point. He said that the point of Scripture is to point people to Him. Here’s where the rub is for me: Instead of allowing the Scriptures to point them to a living relationship with Jesus, many Christians instead develop a relationship with the Bible. The problem with this is that it turns the Bible into something that it was not intended to be…a substitute for the living voice of God. Scripture reveals God as the “I am” of today, not the “I was” of yester-year.
I am personally uncomfortable with saying that E-Jayjo is straying “dangerously close to Gnosticism.” To me this is nothing more than a “slippery slope” argument. The problem with these kinds of statements is that they equate the top of the slope with the bottom. Instead of actually having to wrestle with what people say, we can simply label them as “unsafe” and move on. The slippery slope is an argument based on fear, not reason.
Brian, I hope that I have not offended you. This is not my intention. Instead, I hope that we can all grow as a result of having these kinds of conversations. Thanks, Shaun, for hosting this dialog!
RevJeff says:
I got “The Shack” and havent read it. Because I’m undisciplined and lazy and have a hundred excuses. I am taking it on my retreat this weekend though, so odds are I’ll start it.
Shawn says:
RevJeff, I’m sure you will not be able to put it down. It’s a great read (for fiction). Let us know your insight when you finish.
Veretax says:
Shaun,
Excellent Blog! I wholly agree. When i was in college I was part of a bible fellowship. We went to a “fundamental” baptist church, and many proudly proclaimed their affiliation as such, but I always have maintained that I am a biblicist. I believe what is in the bible, and I grow in that faith and understanding as I read it more and grow closer to him.
People outside of that circle used to characterize me as being a “fundamentalist”, and I’d chuckle and say, there is a lot more to it than just the “basics”. My dad in particular would get on my case about it, and I told him plainly. A solid foundation is important, but the bible is far to beautiful to only have a foundation. There are some great stone’s laid upon those basics.
I agree with you mostly. How often do we meet people who say they believe X, when that’s what their pastor, church, denom, or friend believes, but do not understand why they should believe it? I always wonder about that.