Shaun Groves
[The following series is adapted from a “talk” I give to music minsters and music ministry volunteers on the topic of “worship.” If you’d like me to come talk to your church’s or school’s music type people or anyone else about this stuff, or you have questions or concerns about any of this, just e-mail me.]
In Isaiah chapter six, in the New Groves International Version of the bible, it says something like this: In the year that King Uzziah died I, Isaiah, saw God seated on His throne in heaven.
In the year that King Uzziah died is no small detail to be breezed past. It tells us precisely when Isaiah saw what he did, and when he saw what he did matters, I think. King Uzziah died eight centuries before the name Yeshuah, Jesus, was ever spoken by his mom and dad in the stable, before God put on skin and became our next door neighbor, before he touched lepers and opened blind eyes, before he was nailed to a cross and buried and gone missing from his grave. Before God lifted a finger for us and lowered his Son to earth to save us from sin and hell and ourselves, God was being worshiped – not for what He had done for us but for who He was and still is.
If tomorrow my wife leaves with the kids and says she’s never coming back. If the doctor says it’s cancer and it’s hopeless. If Chick-fil-A closes down and I never get to hold a warm chicken biscuit in my hand again. If all this happens will I still worship God? Am I worshipping God only for what He’s done, or for who He is?
Michiel says:
Way to go, Shaun!
Thanks so much for posting this! I just recently discovered your blog and I’m glad I did!
What you just posted is so real! We’re going through a very hard time in our church right now and I need to remind myself that it’s all about HIM, no matter what the circumstances are!
Thank you for sharing this!
Michiel
(the Netherlands)
MIchael Nease says:
I wanted you to keep going!
This is a topic that burns on my heart… The reason we exist in my opinion is to glorify God! The Bible seems to scream this fact! I am reading a book right now called “Let The Nations Be Glad” by John Piper, and right from the first chapter, he emphasizes how missions is not the purpose of the church, worship is! Missions is necessary because worship is not happening in most situations.
This leads to the whole reason I believe Jesus came to die for us: so that God might be glorified. You see, if we are the ones who were created by Him and for Him and we are perishing in our sin, how is that glorifying to God? He delights in us, and when we truly delight in Him in spirit and truth, it glorifies Him more than we will ever know! It’s too deep to really get into in a blog comment, but if you want to talk more about it, you can write me back.
I can’t wait to hear what else you have to say on this!
You rock Shaun!
-Michael N.
(The California)
Randy says:
Good stuff. It cut like a knife(but feels so right).
I’m interested in how this plays out further…as far as worship being the singing of songs or the way your live your life.
Zack says:
Bro, I was with you right up until the chic-fil-a part.
That’s not funny…
Really appreciated the third podcast too :0)
Zack says:
Hey I have a question for you.
I know it’s a little personal, so feel free to respond privately.
I was just wondering, because I’d like to have you come hang out in NC, what’s the smallest number of people that would make the trip feel worth while?
I’m sure there’s a good Sunday school, “If I could just reach one person…” kind of answer, and I’m sure there’s some truth to it. But if you were going to come perform and talk to a group of folks, and you could never know what kind of ripple effects you produced, how many would it take to drive home and feel like your time was very well-spent?
Shawn Bashor says:
Shawn,
For those of us that are ADD, would you mind posting the next part?
Shawn Bashor says:
I cannot believe I just called you Shawn and not Shaun. For those people who do not have this name, it is expected, but not when you have this name. Wow I feel like an *******. Sorry man.
Shaun Groves says:
There’s not a number in my head that applies to every city. There’s a different expectation everywhere I go. In general the number doesn’t matter to us/me as much as knowing the promoter did his/her job to the best of their ability. In other words, if a promoter did everything we outline in the contract to promote the show (and we’ve added some stuff recently), then the crowd is reflective of me and my popularity in that town and has nothing to do with the promoter’s lack of effort. BUT if we show up and the crowd is massive but the promoter didn’t put posters up or make calls or send e-mails to anyone outside his/her church? We’re not thrilled.
We want the word spread about the show more than we want a certain number of people in attendance.
What’s this have to do with worship again?
; )
And, no problem, Sean. Honest mistake.
Zack says:
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Shaun.
To answer your question, “What does this have to do with worship?”, there are two ways that this is very connected to worship:
1) Like every believer, your full-time job is worship. But unlike most believers, you get to do this through art and creativity, and you have a responsibility (and I know that you’re totally aware of that already) to be intentional about how you invest the talent God has given you. A plumber who loves Jesus wakes up in the morning and he doesn’t really get to plot and plan about where he’s going to fix leaky pipes for the Glory of God. He goes where he’s called when the phone rings, and he looks for opportunities to point people up to Jesus in the process.
But your shoes are a little different. You’re going to point people up to Jesus—that’s a given—but you have this interesting position where you have to prayerfully make choices about where and how, and even the way you approach that decision is part of your worship… plus you probably where pants that fit…
I’m asking about it because in some ways, I’m beginning to have to make those kinds of decisions, and I respect your opinion.
2 – (much shorter) I live in a very religious town that isn’t very worshipful. I think it would be really cool to have you come and put some ‘season’ on our sacrifice of worship by putting things into a little bit of perspective. But our town is small… the churches are small and clicky (spell check says that isn’t a word), and I’m just wondering whether that’s something worth pursuing.
Keep at ‘em brother,
Zack
Shawn Bashor says:
Thanks for making me smile this morning Shon I needed it.
Tim says:
Thanks Shawne for the thought. It’s almost like you’re passionate about worship or something.
As worship leader/director of music at my church i’m faced with this ‘battle’ every week in creating something that I would determine to be ‘worship’ as opposed to some songs that we sing or perform.
I recall someone saying that worship is not a song and if you show up because of a singer or a song then all you did was worship a singer or a song.
The issue here is that worship is not something we, as worship leaders, can MAKE happen. It comes from those people that are “in worship” – and we are charged with “leading” them to a place of worship. Therefore, WE have to be worshiping God in order for others to catch that spirit. If we’re just singing songs without any meaning, then chances are so are they – therefore “worship” is not happening.
So many churches struggle with worship (including mine), I believe, because our focus has shifted away from true worship (Glorifying God) and more into the mechanics of it – we have to have a praise band, we have to have the best sound equipment, we have to do this kind of music or that….it’s shifted to the mechanics of worship so far that worship is being ignored in many cases.
To cut a long story short…I visited a church a couple of weeks ago that is highly regarded where i live. Big church. Lots of people. The band “played” 6-7 songs at the beginning of “worship” without any feeling, no prayer, no nothing. I was lost. It was a “concert”. Lots of people seem to like it. Not sure why.
Keep up the worship, brother.
Tim
Shawn Bashor says:
I am just currious, but do you think you can answer a question like this.
In America we use the term worship (usually combining praise with it although it is different) as singing. A “worship leader/pastor” often talks about accidentally playing the wrong note and messing up “the flow of the spirit.” How do we get away from using churched terms like this? Why do “worship leaders/pastor” feel they have the authority to control the “movement of the Holy Spirit?”
Just a couple questions I was hoping you could help out with.
Tim says:
We can’t “control” anything the Holy Spirit does, nor do we think we have any authority over it. But we try, relentlessly in some cases, to create a place in which the Holy Spirit can do what it needs to do…and if WE as worship leaders are truly worshiping then chances are that God will use us as “instruments” (no pun intended) for His spirit to move through us. If we are simply singing songs then there’s nowhere for the spirit to go, at least not through us anyway. But since we are the ones “leading” worship and asking others to ‘follow’ us, then where are “they” going if “we” are going nowhere fast because we’re just singing a bunch of songs.
So, in answer to your question, we have no authority or control over it…but we CAN decide to be vessels for it to move through, or not.
A weird analogy maybe…but a similarity might be a guy standing on a stage reading a book that relates to a scripture in the bible but reading it word for word in accordance with the way someone else wrote it vs someone who is allowing the spirit to move through him to deliver God’s word in a genuine, transparant way and using his own words to make the same point.
Is there a difference?
Shawn Bashor says:
Okay Tim, So what do you think Jesus would say worship is if given these two choices. Playing music in a multi-million dollar facility, all of us with our eyes closed, meditating on the Holy Spirit, tuning everyone else around us out.
Or
Serving someone less fortunante like buying a homeless guy a meal, lets use sponsoring a child through Compassion International, or any other organization with the same motive.
Just currious what you think Jesus would say in this case.
Cali Amy says:
You know, worship has to be more than just feeding the poor. It has to be feeding the poor, or befriending the lonely, or building a home for the homeless out of love for Jesus and love for them. Similarly, by designing corporate worship in such a way that those in the congregation are focusing on the truth of who God is and how they can live a life differently with Him in it than they would without…that in my mind is service and also worship.
Shawn Bashor says:
Let’s be honest Amy how many people (this includes myself and every experience I have had) say,
“wow praise and worship was awesome at church today. It showed me exactly how I should go out and be more like Christ.”
Or do you usually hear,
“wow praise and worship was awesome today, so and so sounded great…hey lets meet at (put name of restruant you eat at most Sunday afternoons)?
By the way the only people who will argue this point are people who are either actively being paid to be in the position I am questioning, or are part of “the praise and worship team,” headed up by someone paid to know “how the Spirit will move this Sunday” and does not include people who cannot play an instrument or hold a tune because God knows when Praising Him you better damn well be on key.
Cali Amy says:
ha, well, I am not on a praise team and you are right that oftentimes people are trying to figure out what restaurant they should go fellowship at after the service!
However, we are told in Colossians to let the Word of God dwell in us richly as we sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, so there must still be a place for it. I agree that we’ve over emphasized the singing aspect and that often we end up singing things that are quite meaningless in application to our lives. That’s why I think the songs we sing should have a relevant aspect to whatever passage is to be discussed or to the needs of the church.
Haven’t you ever heard a song or been singing in corporate worship when a line of a song hit home? and you realized that it was exactly what you needed to be reminded of. The very thing you needed to hear and sometimes cling to. So whoever is playing the instrument and chosen the song has actually served you! Therefore, what they have done is worship to God.
The title worship leader does bother me a bit, though, I think music minister or something is a more apt description.
I think the reason there is a place for music in church is that God knows how sometimes spoken words on their own fly straight over our heads while music has a way of slipping under our defenses and burrowing into our hearts. I don’t play an instrument and I am no Celine Dion, but I am deeply thankful for music.
Brandy says:
Why, this post totally slapped me in the face. Lots to process.
Shawn Bashor says:
You know Amy, if I attended church, I may very well agree that there is a place in the budget for a “minister of music.” Of course this is part of the 85% of tithe money for “operational expenses,” we use them for.
Although as far as I knew “The Word of God,” according to the Bible atleast, is Jesus,; so it would makes sense that we would focus on the one whom we were worshiping.
I am just saying an action is much louder than a word and we in the church seem to be full of words, I mean look at this page. I know I lack in action, what to do? I don’t know but I know I have the resources to do more than I am doing and I am not going to let a few songs with well placed words make me think I have done my deed for the week.
Cali Amy says:
Right, and that’s not what I was saying. (that your deed for the week was done with songs…I was merely saying that there IS a place for it) And a “minister of music” doesn’t have to be paid. (they never were in any of the churches I went to growing up) I agree with you that words are easy to speak and actions are the hard part. But those actions have got to be motivated by love and not obligation.
It’s easy to segment things. Music is worship or feeding the poor is the best kind. I just think it’s a lot more holistic than that.
Alexis Coleman says:
Hey there Shaun.
I was at Missouri Baptist U. that Saturday in September when you gave your presentation on worship and the biblical definition of it. I will tell you, as many others have, that I was tremendously blessed by it. Somewhere in me I knew this information, but hearing out loud and the way it was given, I know that this is finally one of those “sermons” that will stay with me. I’m glad I pressed my way out to hear such a word. God bless you in your ministry. Will be keeping you in my prayers.
Vicki Miller says:
Amen Shaun! Love the giver of the gifts not the gifts. My wedding band is a reminder to me of the one to which I am joined. It is not the band that I treasure, it the person who gave it to me. If the band were to be destroyed, that that would not change the relationship or committment it symbolizes. In the same way all creation is a reminder to us of the greater love behind it. It speaks to us of God’s nature, beauty, and love. As Paul says in Romans 8:38-39, nothing can separate us from that love. Give me the giver of the gifts anyday. That’s worship, understanding who He is.
Vicki Miller says:
Correction to my last entry…Worship stems from an understanding of who God is. And then praising Him for who He is. His Word is an amazing reminder to us of who He is, therefore the best resource from which we can gain a healthy perspective of His character. Knowledge of Him is key when worshipping Him. A person that thinks God is just out to get them because they lost their car, job, or warm Chick–fil-A sandwich, is limited in worship because the focus is on them. The same goes for the person praising God mainly because he is having a great week. A grateful person can find their mind wandering on the great, big pay check they received from God, rather than the greatness of God. Some of the sweetest worship verses I see in the Bible are written by people like David, Job, and Paul, I am encouraged to read how they praised God through their struggles. I’ve found that to be true in my life, God is so much bigger and amazing, when He’s all I’m holding on to. It’s when all the little distractions around me tend to fade and He is clearly the one in focus.