I’m convinced. I’ve fought it. I really have. But today I’m convinced there is no good reason for me and my family to go to church. None.
My church keeps me informed about opportunities to meet needs in my community.
I can get the same info from the newspaper, talking to neighbors and friends in the community, being pro-active.
My church has a guy who speaks about God. He’s called the pastor and I like him a lot.
I can read books about God, download podcasts of other guys talking about God, or better yet, actually have a dialogue – one of those two-way discussion things – about God with my neighbors and friends. This is assuming of course that what’s missing in my spirit and life is more information.
My church has a guy who has us sing Tomlin songs with him for twenty minutes on Sunday mornings. He’s called the worship pastor and I like him a lot.
I can sing along to my favorite CD, or pull out my guitar and sing a tune, and I can do this with a group of friends and neighbors if I want to and the great thing is I can also NOT do this if I want to – a choice the worship pastor never talks about because it would put him out of a job.
My church has folding chairs.
I have folding chairs made for indoor and outdoor use.
My church has a television screen and sometimes shows short movies that make me think and feel stuff.
I have a television and can rent movies that make me think and feel stuff.
My church has a small troup of “actors” who do dramas for us sometimes.
Church dramas suck.
My church doesn’t let me ask questions or hear what other people think about things.
My front yard does.
My church has a time, it lasts as long as the chorus of a Tomlin song, where we “get to know” each other.
When the kids go to bed Redneck Neighbor and his wife sometimes bring their lawn chairs over and we “get to know” each other. That time usually lasts a few hours. Same thing happens almost every afternoon in Brian‘s front yard.
My church teaches my kids about God, what He’s like, how they’re supposed to treat their mommy and daddy and other kids, and they make friends.
We learn stuff about God at home, numerous times a day. And my kids have more friends than they’re allowed to invite to a birthday party at the skating rink already. That’s a lot.
My church receives about twenty percent of my income. They use that money to pay rent, pay the worship pastor and pastor, buy grape juice and tiny square breads, sustain their food pantry and support missionaries and other good folks doing great things in our town and around the world.
Good folks doing great things in our town and around the world also take personal checks. My resources would go farther without the middle man.
My church let’s me sit beside Redneck Neighbor and his wife and other members of the cult-de-sac for an hour or so every Sunday, during which time we say very little to each other and mostly just sit and listen.
Then we go home and loan each other lawn mowers, ask for marriage and career advice, talk about sex and money and football (I don’t, but it happens), and we fix each others’ stuff and make fun of each other and wonder out loud why we go to church.
And I don’t know anymore.
I know the biblical reasons why communities of Christians are supposed to exist – there are four main ones I was taught in school:
To equip the saints (learn stuff about God and about following God in every area of life and thought)
To witness to the world (model God’s love and other divine attributes together in ways we can’t alone so that when those who don’t believe what we believe see our community they see at the same time what God is like)
To worship as a group (biblically this is less about singing and more about telling our stories to each other of the goodness of God, praying together, silence together, communion together, eating together, sharing together, working together)
To help those in need (fixing whatever is broken together in ways we can’t alone, pooling our skills and resources and brains to solve problems and meet needs everywhere starting within our community).
What I also know from going to a hundred churches a year and having been on church staff five times is that church (as most of us in America know it) doesn’t do any of these things as well, as swiftly and effectively as a cul-de-sac without tax exempt status can.
Pastors, in light of all this confession, explain to me why I should go to your church. And then please stick around and talk to us if we have questions about your reasons.
Carey says:
I’ve never commented here, but your blog has been encouraging to me over the last few months. And I don’t think I would have thought of writing these thoughts out in this way, but you’ve expressed so much of what I’ve been struggling with. I’m the daughter of a megachurch minister, whose church just built a $25 million building, have a ministry degree, and work in communications at another megachurch (that made the decision not to build, and supports like 800 Compassion kids…if I leave, before I do, I’m going to try to get them to get you in for a concert), but my heart is not any of those places. It’s at my house church, and sitting on my deck reading, and all those things I never get to do because I’m too busy letting “ministry” get in the way of MINISTRY. So, thanks for giving me one more reason that I’m not crazy, and that I’m not alone, and that maybe I should just take that step and walk away, like I keep wanting to do.
Cali Amy says:
If you don’t have relationships with the people in your church and all church is to you is what you just described, than you’re absolutely right about there not being a reason to go to church.
benstewart says:
Just a quick thought on “Equipping the Saints…”
That part does go both ways. Not only should you go to be equipped, but you should go so that you can be used to equip others.
Sometimes maybe the church needs you more than you need “the church.”
Shaun Groves says:
Good to bring up, Ben. My fault for not saying that. You know me well enough to know I believe it and do it, but thanks for putting it in writing here: Church is a place to give and get. A place that needs me even when I don’t need it.
And, so is a circle of friends, a neighborhood, a cul-de-sac, any community of people.
Molly Ranae says:
This is something I have thought and prayed about and, like the Halloween issue, the Holy Spirit has not told me to leave “the church,” so I won’t.
My question is this:
If everyone who truly understands the heart of what the church is supposed to be, leaves the “four-walled church,” which clearly houses the vast majority of believers in America, who will God use to share His heart? Not to put Him in a box and say He could not work even if they left, but “How will they hear without a preacher” so to speak.
katie larson says:
Hi Shaun…
here is a thought: we go to church because the church is the bride and body of Christ—when the bible talks about the bride of Christ it is talking about the church, not about one individual believer at a time…now I know that the cultural manifestation of “the church” has many many many many many problems – but I have never been able to just not go to church, even while maintaining my fellowship with christian friends, and feel connected to the local and global body of Christ. I also find it harder to do this in house church systems, even though I think those are biblical and could possibly work very well.
I dont’ know. I think that the church is important—even when I wish all the problems with the church were solved.
OK: I don’t really post here, so you are probably like “who is this girl” but I thought I’d chime in
Dale Best says:
Might I suggest an insightful book that covers this very topic…?
“The Way of Jesus” by Jonathan and Jennifer Campbell
Our small group leaders at our church are reading “The Way of Jesus” and now feel torn somewhat between our church…just like the “church in bold” you described above…(because it was founded by their parents 25 years ago) or beginning a home church with our current small group.
Shawn Bashor says:
Shaun-You thinking about having non-church? I am just currious, you know the depth of non-church and understand it better than most(which is evident here) is what I have understood through the conversations we have had.
Shaun-Did you ever think about cutting and pasting all the comments from Brants blog about this to save people time?
Carey-That takes guts, big kudos. I pray that God blesses you with an amazing family of believers to go on that journey with, they are out there I promise, a lot of us.
Molly-Question
“If everyone who truly understands the heart of what the church is supposed to be, leaves the “four-walled church,” which clearly houses the vast majority of believers in America, who will God use to share His heart?”
Answer-look in the mirror, we are more affective christian being in the world and being “lights in darkness” than we are being in a four walled building that very few non-believers ever walk into.
Redneck Neighbor says:
I can’t give up on our church….who else would let me on their softball team.
Tamara Cosby says:
I’m reading this great book right now, “The Irresistible Revolution” by Shane Claiborne. I LOVE my church. But it is not the church building that makes my church. Our church building is a place for us to meet. I agree I am fed a LOT from different things in my life…the fellowship outside of church is awesome. While reading this book, I am finding I am doing NOTHING to encourage church outside of those four walls. So instead of leaving our building, I am encouraged to GET INTO OUR BUILDING. Find the hearts of these people who are talking. DIG. And now, from one simple dig, I am finding ways to reach people who haven’t even stepped foot in our doors…and while I am doing that, I am finding food from them as well as others I encounter. Just my 2 cents.
Lis says:
As much as I agree (largely because of my own struggles with “the church”), there is the issue of accountability. What happens if there is tension/quarrelling in the home group and the group breaks up? Who holds people accountable for the way things are handled? In Exodus, Jethro sets it up for Moses- Moses handles the disputes that are too big for the captains of thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. Without accountability, most will eventually go their own way. Then we end up secluding ourselves from other believers . So if that happens, how does iron sharpen iron?
AND, maybe the church needs us more than ever to challenge and hold accountable their methods for the way things are going. . . how they are (and are not) affecting the community- immediate, regionally and internationally . . .
Kevin Rush says:
Shaun,
Couldn’t agree with you more.
I’m currently praying about planting a house church. Focused on being the church and not just doing ‘church’ things.
What’s your thoughts about house churches?
Jen says:
I completely agree with you. After going to one too many churches where I was made to feel like an outcast & not a single person said ‘hi’ to me or made me feel welcome, I stopped going. Just because I don’t attend church doesn’t mean I don’t believe, have discussions, pray, worship, and all of the other things you do in church. I do them all, and on my own time, with all of my heart. Thanks for the great post.
Kat says:
Have you ever been to my church? (That’s a serious question, by the way…)
I read the posts that you and Brant write about church and I have a hard time relating.
It’s not a perfect church, but it does those four things pretty well.
To equip the saints – right now we’re going through a series on the 10 commandments. At every level of the church we’re learning the same thing and they’ve put together a family devotion kit so that throughout the week we as parents can discuss what we’re learning with our kids.
To witness to the world – our church has about 2,000 members. We also have about 230 long term missionaries that we’ve sent out to scores of countries around the world. These are not random missionaries we’ve chosen to align ourselves with – they’re members of our church, people I’ve gone to college with and raised my kids with who feel called to share Jesus with people around the world. My kids regularly talk via Skype with their friends who have moved to different countries to help people in need and share the love of Jesus. And every week at church we pray for someone who is leaving to minister elswhere – either short term or long term.
To worship as a group – my husband and I lead a small group. We meet every week and worship together, pray together, study together and laugh together. On Saturday a few of us met to pray specifically for a girl who is going through a difficult time. We’ve fasted together for a baby in our group who is facing serious health issues. We challenge one another and keep one another accountable. These are my closest friends.
To help those in need – our church is located in one of the poorest parts of our town, our pastors live there, our church is committed to serving the people in that community.
Three days after the tsunami in Asia, our church sent a team to Sri Lanka to help. Since then, we’ve raised over a million dollars to entirely rebuild a town that was destroyed. We have a permanent team over there overseeing the project.
One man from the village had this to say about the team there:
“… you played with our children, cared for the sick, and are everyday with us. This makes me want to take a picture of your God and hang him on my wall and worship Him.”
My church isn’t perfect, but it can and has done more than I could ever do on my own. It’s not an organization or a building, it’s pretty much a giant cul-de-sac of friends who have a passion for Jesus and His purposes in the earth.
Chestertonian Rambler says:
How about this:
To be a part of a denomination, with denominational leadership and accountability within a worldwide body of believers?
Or to have Church membership, so you can follow the Pauline model of church creation?
(I go to a very anarchic church, but church standards. Every other Sunday, the pastor makes the point that Sunday meetings aren’t Church, our small-group weekly studies are. But I’m still glad my pastor is responsible to the PCA, that he’s raising up a group of sober-minded Elders and deacons who he will later be responsible to. And that’s why I don’t just sit around and make a church with my friends.)
(Well, and because the only reason I have Christian friends in Toronto is because I met them through the local church.)
Ben Dubow says:
Interesting stuff.
One reason to stay in a local church is because I think we are called as Christ-followers to be on covenanted community together–commitment to each other and the mission of God. Just hanging out together is not the same as covenanting together.
BTW, it sounds like your cul de sac may actually be a church (if what you describe is accurate). You don’t need a building or budget to be the church.
Third, Jesus loves the church and so should we.
Fourth, the church will prevail because Jesus is building His church!
Fifth, the church is the body of Christ—not really optional for a Christ-follower.
Sixth, if you opt out of the church, church will continue to suck. Every time someone opts out, the church—the bride of Christ—is weakened.
Seventh, the church is a family. A churchless Christian is an orphan.
Just my quick thoughts.
Seems like the real issue is how to make the church better?
milepost13 says:
Honestly Shaun…since you don’t fall into our target group, I’d say you probably shouldn’t go to our church.
Jenn says:
Tamara – it’s an amazing book isn’t it? I’m actually in the process of leaving the church I was born and raised in for a variety of reasons: over commercialization – glitz, glamor and gloss aren’t the way I live my life, and their concern with “moral majority” issues etc…I’m aware not the ideal image of a Christian, so I’ve found a new church – far less structured, more communal that is seeking the path of His Church (biblically sound) and I’m trying it out – so far it accepts that despite my feminist tendencies, tattoos, veganism and passion for social justice God loves me and there is a place for me in the Church.
Note: small c = building, C=bride – one, corrupted, lost and deaf to His voice for the most part, the other undefined by place, time or worship style – true to His ministry.
In addition I think in many ways we hide in the church – we assume someone else will do the work for us, give and do the work – we just have to show up and sing – when doing it on a small group level or home church there is a more direct level of a accountability.
julieH says:
Why go to church…. well, because the bible tells me to. Obedience.
The fallen-ness of the church should bother us. It should drive us crazy, it should drive us to our knees. The church is not perfect, far from it. The church should be corporately repenting of its sins, admitting its mistakes, and getting out of the mighty fortress of the church building, just as we all should be doing individually.
Meet in a house, meet in a big building, meet in your cul-de-sac. Grab model a, b, c, d, x, or whatever the new cool, great thing going is. Every church is going to fall short, simply because it’s made up of imperfect fleshy human beings.
Christ lived on earth and worshipped among us. We see Him in the temple as a child learning from the imperfect human leaders. From some of the confrontations he had with the Pharisees in the NT, I can’t think that church was a picnic for Him. Why would we get to be exempt?
just my thoughts. blessings,
Julie
Molly Ranae says:
Shawn: I understand what you are saying, but we do not have to be ministering solely to non-believers to be effective. It is vitally important for us to both be lights in the darkness of the unbelieving world, and builders of the brethren. And I know you do not have to be in a church building to do that, but I also know that God has asked me to do both. And to say that very few non-believers ever walk into a church building is untrue. I meet unbelievers at church every week. The church my mother fellowships at gives the gospel message at every service they hold, and at least one person gives their life to Jesus each time.
Kat: That is awesome…the church I fellowship at is much the same way, and I know of many others as such. Not perfect, by any means, but significantly impactful for the Kingdom.
I do not want people to think that I am against home fellowships, but I do not think we should be so quick to stereotype every congregation in America (myself included).
Scott says:
I don’t believe that the modern church is what God wants for the bride of Christ. She is pregnant with the love child of the world. She is a business, too often. She is attempting to win souls to Christ through church dramas (which do suck), self-centered music (see When The Music Fades), and Santa Claus God. She is preaching sermon series to inform, rather than life-saving truths to transform. She is NOT what the early church was and is NOT what the persecuted church is. She hasn’t even been around for very long! This modern church is just that…a relatively new phenom.
The church should not be just a building, as most people agree. It should be a body of believers. That being said, why knock a home church? Home church is JUST AS MUCH OR MORE of a church as Church Incorporated. What do we do if the home church gets too big????? Somebody gets a bigger house or you start another in a different house! IT ain’t rocket science.
That being said, we are part of a local denominational church. We are on a mission there and will remain as long as the Lord wills us to be there. ‘Tis not by our choice, but His will.
We know a few families that have a home church. They have NO pastor. They have elders. They solicit money from no one. They owe to no one. They feed people who come. They are doing God’s work. They have meetings almost every day. They invite people from the community….and many many come! They had a hay ride this past weekend. We went. There were probably 100 people there. There were an amazing cross-section of people. Most of whom would not darken the door of the “official” church down the street. Why is that? ‘Cause lost people see most members of “Church, Inc.” and say “Thanks, but ya’ll are as screwed up as I am.”
The husbands/fathers of this church have taken personal responsibility for the spiritual upbringing of their families…..like God instructs us!
Church, Inc. wants to be “relevant” and to help you develop a spiritual action plan! It is highly denominational….which one can not argue is of God.
A “churchless Christian” (as one posted above) is better off as an orphan following God’s will than to be a part of a “country club” church working to give people just enough religion to innoculate them against Christ.
I think that anyone who posts on this thread arguing FOR Church Incorporated should, in the interest of honesty, divulge whether or not they or any family member is on staff at Church, Inc.
Scott says:
Yep…my brain just imploded. This thread just sealed the deal for me…
You are right Shaun…there is no good reason. All of the arguments otherwise on this page are rife with biblical inaccuracies. To all arguing otherwise: Please please please question what you’ve been told or led to believe and study the scriptures for yourself. Don’t take my word, but don’t totally discount it. Your life may depend upon it.
“julieH said:
Why go to church…. well, because the bible tells me to. Obedience.”
Huh? Your definition of church is obviously not the same as God’s.
“Christ lived on earth and worshipped among us. We see Him in the temple as a child learning from the imperfect human leaders.”
Ya think? They were astounded at HIS knowledge. Yes, they were conversing. He learned nothing from them. He taught them. Remember, He wrote the book!
“And to say that very few non-believers ever walk into a church building is untrue”
Huh? Statistically, most churches grow membership at the expense of other churches…not from the unchurched. That being said, you spoke more truth than you intended. The church IS full of non-believers. They are the tares in a field of wheat. There are far too many people sitting in churches on Sunday morning singin’ about Heaven who will not go there.
Anyway….I just hit my 2 post limit for the day.
Shaun, can my kids come to First Church of the Cul de Sac V.B.S.? Does the nursery have those cool pagers?
Shawn Bashor says:
Um, I wish I was as articulate as Scott. Wow, I don’t think I could have said it any better.
Molly- Let’s be real, the amount of true unbelievers(people who have never heard the gospel message) walking into a church is slim to none. The vast majority of what you would call “unbelievers” are people coming from the church down the street. Watch your congregation grow as the mildly more legalistic church down the street shrinks.
We paralyze the Holy Spirit when we tell 500 people sorry there are only 4 people in the entire congregation who have spiritual gifts, they happen to be the three pastors and one worship leader who is payed, so they are the proffesional leave it to them. Oh we will teach that God gives as He will, but you are not aloud to use them here in this service because it is not on the schedule.
www.timetochange.us says:
man, i’m feeling you on this. me & the guys have been experiencing this type of church fellowship for the last 5 years that we’ve been here. i’ve tried numerous times to find a church where i can get involved in & do life with…and i have until recently found none.
the best community, growth, confessions, prayer, & scripture meditation has happened in my frieds back yard, sitting in cheap patio furniture, under an umbrella with lights, while drinking a nice glass of wine, and cigar in hand. trying to figure this thing we call life out, seeking God on how to make this world a better place, and thinking of ways to put our dreams into action. that’s where church happens for me.
Kellia says:
I hope I’m allowed to post on this randomly. I was just checking your website because I found Invitation to Eavesdrop and remembered how good it was and wanted to see if you had new albums, and then this caught my eye.
It’s a tragedy that we have screwed up church enough to make Christians not want to go. But I think that the church is incredibly important because we’re not made to be self-sufficient, we’re made to need others. My church isn’t perfect, none are, but it points to God and reminds me of what I should be aiming for; I can get endlessly rationalizing of my own behavior when I pursue God alone. I think we need the body of Christ to keep us accountable for truly pursuing Him and serving Him and shake us out of our own self-centered perspectives. Of course no church does all of this exactly right, but giving up on the church because of that is a little like deciding not to eat because all the prepackaged good in the grocery store is filled with bad things like high fructose corn syrup. It’s not that you should stop eating, you just need to make an effort to search for better food.
If you really feel passionate about this, then I’m wondering if the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something about it.
In John 4, Jesus talks to the woman at the well and, responding to her question as to whether the Jews or the Samaritans are correct about where to worship, He says: “The time is coming, ma’am, when we will no longer be concerned about whether to worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. For it’s not where we worship that counts, but how we worship–is our worship spiritual and real? Do we have the Holy Spirit’s help?”
So I guess whether or not you go to an “official” church is not important, but rather whether you are gathering with believers regularly, intentionally seeking God.
Now let’s hope I didn’t put my foot in my mouth…
Anon says:
Well, I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I don’t really want to read 26 comments right now, so, here’s what I would say:
You, being a man of God with a great community of believers around you probably don’t need the church for the reasons given. However, you are also a roll model to others. While you not going to church may help you serve other’s outside the 4-walled building, there may be some believers who aren’t as strong as you spiritually who think that if someone like you can not go to church, it must be ok for them as well. It’s sort of the whole deal with eating food sacrificed to idols in the old days. You know it’s ok, and I know it’s ok, but someone else may stumble because of it. I like good ol’ Paul. I can’t wait to meet him. It’d be sweet if I could talk to him now–he’d probably smack me up a bit, but it’d be worth it. I guess for now I’ll just have to let his words smack me up.
I don’t know if that was helpful, but I tried ^_^
Erin says:
Accountability… My sister is involved in a campus ministry with some issues with hiring policies that she believes are doing a disservice to the members. The board of directors should be the one to resolve this problem but they have proven to be basically a rubber stamp/ ceremonial committee. But because the ministry is affiliated with a denomination she has people locally and nationally that have a stack in the ministry and can help her bring the problem to light and fix it.
When I was in college I had a great community, much like the one you described. And because of that I did not join a church. My friends and I church surfed a lot and we did studies together and prayed together. But I graduated and moved away to a place where i didn’t know anyone. The apartment I moved to was next door to one of the biggest party school in the US and my next door neighbor got arrested by a SWAT team. I was lonely and forgetting my daily prayer and moving a way from God till I joined my church. And it certainly is not perfect but it is the best that I have… I don’t have a cul-de-sac. And we have so many visitors, people who are looking for community. I met a girl at church last week who was walking her dog in the neighbor feeling bad and saw the church and came to service that very day.
Seth Ward says:
Before I started attending a Mass regularly, I felt the same way. The reason for going to church before? community, or being with other Christians. But now, I feel something different. Even in the community. We are there for a purpose, for something than cannot be achieved in “hanging out” or singing spiffed-up hymns. We are there to worship the body and blood that is broken. We are there to observe the Mass, confess together, pray together, and sing together. Most importantly, we are there to eat and drink the Body of Christ. This is a different reason to show up. “Church” has altogether become something different to me. Its not just about me, it is about me taking something mystical and kneeling before one of the greatest mysteries of my faith, the Eucharist.
This is the tradition passed down from Christ to the Apostles, from the Apostles to us that I have missed and longed for without knowing it. I’ve thought about taking the same course you are talking about, but now I know that I would miss this. Profoundly miss it. It is now a Grace that I long for and need more that any meal can provide. The good message and fellowship are all outpourings of this goodness and the unity that it sows.
RevJeff says:
Ask Brant
Seth Ward says:
Sorry… lastly,
Therefore, the Mass is what I attend on Sunday, to eat, drink, and worship Christ, and Church is something that I am rather than go to.
Toby says:
First off, this made me laugh:
My church has a small troup of “actors” who do dramas for us sometimes.
Church dramas suck.
As to why I stay in church, some of the same reasons above, community, accountability, etc but rather than simply give the pat answer or a seminary paper from my ecclesiology class let me say that I stay to be the voice the tells people to get off of their butts. I get to preach at churches all over the area I live in, and sometimes I get to preach at the same church a number of times. When I preach in these places, I preach from the prophets and the gospels and I relate Paul’s commentary on the Christian life in Christ back to who the gospels say Jesus was and who they say he said he was. In short, I get to preach what many pastor’s want to preach that God’s redemption is for everyone and our job is to be conduits for that redemption and reconciliation, not arbiters of it. I stay because people that need to hear that message are usually in a church building in the pews. Now I find community and accountability there also, but most of the people i find that community with are friends apart from the church.
Kyle Kite says:
I work at a church as a music guy/web guy/college guy, and I’m regularly struggling with the different words and ideas meant by: “church”.
Recently I’ve had somewhat of a “revelation” (not in the UFO/seeing Jesus in my toast kind of way) about how I think of “church”, and I’d love to run it by you.
I was walking through my “church building” while:
1.) some folk’s were setting up for a banquet in the “fellowship hall” for a local save-a-life group (not directly affiliated with the church);
2.) a massive, three foot-tall crowd of kids from one of our daycare/afterschool classes was running past, and;
3.) I was headed to teach a guitar lesson
and I was thinking, “This place is a zoo.” and “This isn’t a church!”.
And then it hit me……it’s not.
And it shouldn’t be. And for that matter it can’t be.
It’s a building.
Buildings CAN’T be “The Church”. Whether or not we “make” them that is sort of irrelevant.
I’ve heard in country churches, mega-churches, and cool, “emerging” urban churches that: “The Church is the people not the building!” I think most everyone’s pretty clear on that.
What it seems we’re confused about is: “What’s the building then?”
This is where my newfound perspective comes in.
I’ve begun to think of three distinct groups:
1.) The Church: the time-spanning, world-spanning, glorious Bride of Christ. From all times, from all places.
2.) My Church: the people from group 1 who I have some form of direct relational contact with (read: my peeps). Which is NOT all the people who do stuff at the “church” I work for. There aren’t enough hours in the day to know that many folks.
3.) 501(c)3 non-profit organizations: organizations (of many shapes and sizes) funded and run by folks from groups 1 and 2 which exist as tools through which to serve folks (both in and out of groups 1 and 2) in whatever ways they can.
That thinking has helped me a lot and I was wondering what any of you thought about it.
It’s kind of neat this way (and a lot more hopeful), because “all of a sudden” there are a bunch of these “non-profit organizations” in all of our towns that you and I, “The Church”, can utilize to help serve folks. Some of them work better than others.
These big, old “dinosaurs” (read: your avg. churches) are too big of a resource for those interested in “loving the least” to leave behind.
I don’t know how all of that plays into “going to church” exactly. For the record “going to church” sounds pretty lame.
I was raised “going to church”. I work at a “church”. But, I realized a long time ago that I am The Church, and that’s what I’m doing…being The Church.
As far as I can see there’s The Bride, there’s my peeps, and there’s this 501(c)3 non-profit that some of my peeps (and some other peeps) fund and operate that meets peoples needs.
Any thoughts?
Toby says:
Kyle,
You make good points. My wife and I have utilized the services of multiple non-profits for several years now. We are part of a young and growing faith community with little resources and my wife and I have 3 kids. So at one point we attended services with our community, and the kids also went to AWANA at another church, and GA’s and Mission friends at another church. Because we were involved in small ways with several communities of faith we have developed a larger experience of the body of Christ in Abilene.
juieH says:
Um, Scott, where did I define church??? I didn’t… so I’m not sure how you are saying I have a messed up definition of it… my point was, use any model you want, within biblical guidelines, but none of them are going to be perfect.
Jesus was raised as a Jew, he would have spent his whole life in the Jewish church. If not learning then listening, but worshipping among us humans, under human leaders. Who are by definition imperfect.
That third statement you quoted wasn’t from my post…
julieH
Dave Haupert says:
The main reason I go to church is that I don’t trust the neighbors to keep the Santa secret from my kids At church the kids leaders are trained not to ‘go there’!
My wife and I facilitate a small group at our house each week and from there I can see where your thoughts are coming from. During this group, we find true biblical community, breaking break together, praying for one another, asking questions that provoke lots of deep discussions and thought, listen to great music and even watching videos like the 8 dollar hotdog to provoke thought and action. We are supporting financially a ‘member’ who has fallen on hard times by following what they felt was a calling on their lives, we are building a house with Habitat for Humanity, and we’re raising money to build wells in Africa. We even have a couple who are not believers as an integral part of the group, and they ask us some tough questions as they explore for the first time the claims of Christ and see for themselves what a biblical community is about. We are making a difference in a small and big scale and I do see this as a true biblical sense of the church.
While I find and agree with all of this, I still find myself being challenged mentally and spiritually by a message that is challenging and uncomfortable enough to make me improve myself and relationship with God. I find myself laying awake at night thinking about the huge heart to serve of a person I see lovingly and happily serving each week doing the tasks the no one else would want to do. I hear about the other small groups and some ideas they’ve had to serve their community and eachother. I find myself meeting new people who are just learning
about becoming a Christ follower and I’m there to encourage them and mentor them as needed. And we find our kids asking us each day of the week if we’re going to church today because they love being there so much.
My church is nowhere near perfect, but neither am I and I still find myself growing each time I go. And it definitely serves a great purpose in my community and to me!
Albert says:
I’m curious. Would this be reason enough? Jesus (the disciples and Paul too) apparently never stopped going to Synagogues in whatever area he was in, and the Temple for the feasts.
I agree that none of them were too pleased with the way “church” was done, nor what the leaders had turned it into. But Jesus, in particular, still went. As did Peter and John in Acts 3. There was obviously a time when they no longer went, but that may have been because they were no longer allowed.
Maybe I’m way off base, but it seems that the earliest gatherings of the followers of The Way was in addition to both synagogue and Temple worship.
Shaun Groves says:
I was very careful in my post not to say “I don’t like church.” Yet that is the interpretation some of you are crafting.
Kat, I’ve been to churches like yours. I’m at a church like yours. There are great churches out there. Many more than get blogged about! But that’s not the point. I’ve never said “going to church” is bad. Or that the churches we “go to” are bad. The question is, must we “go to” church to be the Church?
Ben D., Jesus loves the Church and went to synagogue. There’s a difference between that statement and the one you made.
Ben D., the Church is the Body of Christ and the Church will prevail against Hell’s power on earth. The Church is being built by God on earth and may or may not included all those who “go to” church. Again, this is different in important ways from what you’ve said. Do you have any questions about how exactly? I’m not sure I’m communicating this distinction very well.
Chestertonian Rambler, it’s not Paul’s model of membership. If it’s anybody’s it’s the Jewish model tweaked by Peter once the Christians were kicked out of the synagogues. To be a member in the early church required two years of catechization (learning what the Church believes), ended with a pledge of allegiance to Jesus the Lord over Caesar and any member who did not live this allegiance to God and one another was dechurched. Service and sacrifice and honesty to one another was not elective. The bar was high and purposefully ducking under it could get you kicked out or even killed by God (See Annanias and Saphira. Ouch.) You ever “joined” a church like that? That’s the model.
Jenn, your “note” is worth repeating in case anyone missed it: small c = building, C=bride – one, corrupted, lost and deaf to His voice for the most part, the other undefined by place, time or worship style – true to His ministry.
Albert, Jesus and the disciples did go to the synagogues. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, his disciples continued to do so. They were Jews, after all. But soon the Jews did not want them around. SO they started churches. What did those churches look like? What did they do? Once we know that then it makes sense to ask if these churches were more similar to our churches today or to something else? And to ask if what we do must be similar to what they did.
EVERYONE, It’s hard to know from reading the printed word but I’m sensing a little hostility between a few folks here. Just a friendly reminder to all of us that when we’re discussing church/Church we’re discussing God’s family and as members of that family we have to put unity above being right. So, to avoid hurting family let’s all remember to be extra clear and kind in our words so that no one can even suspect us of being angry or hurtfully sarcastic.
katie larson says:
Ok. I’ve been thinking about this again: It hit me that the personal spiritual growth of individuals is not the primary function of the church hour on Sunday Mornings. it seems to me like the primary function of that hour (or hour and a half, whatever) is
1) lots (or small amounts) of people worshiping God in the same place at the same time – this is a good thing
2) hearing someone preach who has spent alot of time preparing a sermon: also a good thing, when I’m with my friends and we are just talking ove spiritual things, none of us are studied up aside from what is on the top of our heads. It really could be our own pooling of ignorance. I like the weekly check of going to a place where someone has put alot of time and study into it and cares alot about being theologically correct. I don’t think this necessarily has to be a seminary trained pastor, and I don’t know if this is a biblical reason for the church hour, but I deeply appreciate it in my life.
3) a way for communion and baptism — Shaun, do your friends and you in your front yard on your lawn chairs have a way to do this? THey are important functions of “the church”
It IS confusing that there are two meanings of church: church, the bride of christ (the people0 and church the building I go to on sunday’s….but ultimatly, i find that the building that I go to on Sundays helps me stay better connected to the global body of Christ than I would be if I didn’t go……I hear about missionaries, I hear about other local churches doing good things, I have opportunities to serve which help me to serve (i realize that I could serve with out the church, but I wouldn’t have the connection to the rest of the body of Christ)…
ultimatly, God has given certain tasks to the church which is why I don’t stop going to A church……
1) communion/baptism (I’m not catholic, I suppose you could do this with your friends, i guess)
2) training, sending and supporting missionaris is the task of the church…the parachurch missionaries that do this are not to take the place of the church, just assist the church
3) it is the church’s responsibility to reach their community and take care of the poor (which obviously means the people in the church) so it is a very good thing to have an official church to go to that does this
and again, it is my firm belief that the “bride of christ” is not any one individual believer, but the church (the global body of believers) so individual believers need to love the church because Christ loves the church.
So, I will keep going to MY church(the building on sunday), with all it’s flaws, because it helps me love THE church.
Brant says:
I still say “going to church” makes no sense. There’s no Biblical basis for “going to church” whatsoever.
You are the church. The church is the movement that Jesus started.
When Jesus was crucified, the temple veil split in two. This is not insignificant. The body of Christ is now His people, our bodies are now His temple.
Yes, apostles went to synagogues, where they were allowed to speak the message of Jesus. These weren’t Christian church meetings, so far as I can tell. They were preaching the Good News in public spaces, which takes some serious guts.
Trey says:
Wow, I remember having a similar discussion with you and many other commentors back in April about this very subject on your blog. You were still riding the fence at the time, not sure whether to completely give up on “church” or not. But like you, myself and so many people I’ve known recently, asking the hard questions is never easy and opposition is met at every turn. It’s difficult to question almost 2,000 years of “tradition” without people questioning your motives, your love for God and your love for the Church.
But I commend you on being bold enough to say what’s been on your heart and mind for some time now, and for not settling for this religious institution in which, it seems to me that, the ways of Jesus have become secondary to maintaining Corporate Christianity.
I think you are completely right: the life, community and love that Jesus wants us to experience and share with the world is better cultivated in relational living, house to house, where believers learn to truly live as family, sharing life together daily and not just a pew on Sunday mornings.
It sounds insane, rebellious and, today, somewhat devisive that Jesus would desire for us to live under his headship and not that of a man, a governing body of elders, or even under the laws of religious obligation, but in simplicity with one another in a worshipping community of believers loving the broken and the lost. Four walls were never meant to contain it or even propogate that kind of “religion”.
Brian Seay says:
The biblical model for ‘going to church’ is found in Acts2 where the new baby church met in their homes AND went to the temple courts daily. I am not advocating that this gathering cannot be done outside the ‘formal buildings’ we have established BUT I will advocate that church is an intentional gathering of believers, not just a spontaneous or fluid one that happens in front yards, backyards, etc. That is definitely living out our faith which is us being the church but it is not the totality of the church. The CHURCH never will be the building but there is a multitude of examples in the NT where the church intentionally gathers, whether in homes or in the temple courts or in the streets to preach the gospel. I think when we start living in our communities AS the church we decide we no longer need the intentionality and structure that is laid out for us in the NT. Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Why can’t I do all the things that I do in the cult-de-sac AND connect to an intentional body of believers? One may be more flawed than the other but they can both exist.
Yes, the veil was torn in two and yes, we are now fully under the headship of Christ and yes, He is our High Priest. But now what do we do with I Corinthians and especially I Timothy 5:17-20 where the structure of the church is given to us and we are told to DOUBLY honor the elders that lead the church? Maybe even pay them? Is this not for us? Have we matured beyond the point of needing this?
angie says:
Well, let me honestly say that I didn’t read everyone of the posts above, because let’s face it some of those were pretty long and seemed to be slighty tense.
I have a question, and sorry if it’s been answered already, but did any one address the missionary aspect?
You know, sending others out and praying for and finacially supporting them?
How would a home church do that? The finacial part I mean? And I am asking from an honest heart with no sacasim whatsoever.
Shaun? Your thoughts?
Albert says:
I hope my comment wasn’t interpreted by anyone as sarcastic, angry or in any other snarky way. I apologize if it was taken that way. It was a real question on my part.
Shaun, you make a distinction between jewish practice and the earliest christian worship. Granted, there is a difference, though I’m not sure how much I can divorce myself from Jesus’ actions because of their jewish-ness. Can you help me with your thoughts here?
Let me ask your reaction to this. As a follower of Jesus I want to know how he acted and reacted towards the religious institution of his day. An institution that was first of all of the true God, but had misunderstood the gospel and been corrupted in much the same way as the Church in the West has today. I think I need to really ponder how he dealt with it. How much do you think this should be taken into consideration?
AWHall says:
Because God is a Triune God, he has always been in community. Augustine said that because the Triune God is a God of community, the only way he is known is through the community of those who have experienced the new birth. To limit your gatherings to family or friends is to hand-pick the people that you want to know God from. That doesn’t sound like a rich experience to me – it sounds like a way of depriving oneself from God’s rich revelation of his Word through his people. That’s why our church exists.
Redneck Neighbor says:
There appears to many very intelligent people that post here with a lot of great ideas/beliefs. They obviously have a lot of passion for these ideas/beliefs. For me it’s KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)…I enjoy church for the most part so I go. Could I be a christian w/ out church? Probably so but I believe it would be quite a bit harder to stay on the right path for myself.
Zach says:
I love my church, and more than likely without it I would not be on your blog today.
I believe we are clearly instructed to gather together as believers. Someone mentioned this in a previous post, about the passage in Acts.
I believe that there are churches that satisfy what is described in that passage. I believe the church I come from does that. You may believe that not your church, but rather a smaller community fits that description. If the church you attend is rather large, it makes sense to me. In a very large church, what I could see happening is that the people will form smaller groups and in their own way form their own community of believers, but still within the church.
But, if you really think that more good would come from not going to church.. I don’t really know how to respond to that because I don’t know about your church (other than what you’ve given here).
If you haven’t read through your church’s constitution, you should try it out and see if you agree with it.
Zach says:
I definitely second you, Mr. Redneck. It would be much harder to stay on the path.
Cali Amy says:
Wow, this has been an interesting read. There’s a lot to chew on here.
Shawn Bashor says:
Well redneck neighbor, keeping on the path is accountability, you don’t need a building to do it, I promise.
Why is it every persons church is different than what is described by people who no longer go to church? I think it is rather odd how I have yet to find this perfect church. Go ahead Zach read a constitution written by a man, to fit the needs of a man with the same agenda. Then read your Bible and tell what Jesus had to teach regarding the Kingdom.
George says:
Hey Shaun and everyone else,
This subject has been a big issue of contemplation, experimentation, and study for much of the last few years of my life and maybe some of my conclusions will help in this discussion.
First a little history:
I have attended a ton of different services, been part of (meaning I was genuinely invested in the lives of the people) more than just a few churches who practice the typical passive, low participation type services (some had great community inspite of this and some were groups shamefully independent. Usually a bit of both.), have been part of a few house churches, and have gone through time when I officially did nothing except hang out with my Christian friends at times.
For the record, most of the changes in what group I was a part of were due to me moving not me being disgruntled and leaving. There were exceptions though.
The point of me saying this is to show that if I do have a bias it is probably not from prejudice or ignorance, but rather from experience.
From reading the posts here I will assume that we for the most part looking to the Scriptures as authoritative in our decision making.
The thing is, we have to figure out which verse are prescriptive (telling us what we must do) and which verses are descriptive (telling us what people did, but not necessarily expecting us to follow their example). Of course many people are going to disagree with how we do or do not apply descriptive verses to our lives, but it is obvious that many verses are not explicit commands. The commands are what we are definitely bound to. So what are the commands regarding our gathering together?
We should share our goods and giftings with each other. This includes giving to the poor among us, missionaries, and those who sacrifice a straight job to serve the body.
We should practice Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
We should learn together in a way that is conducive to being clearly understood and open to immediate critisim.
We should adore God together.
I think that broadly covers it for things we are to do specificly when we gather as a group. Please correct me if I am wrong.
What is NOT clearly commanded is frequency, the exact mediums used, the priority level of each part, and the institutional connection to each other and the rest of the body of Christ.
Shaun is clearly not saying that he wants to stop doing any of these things with a group of believers, but instead is questioning what type of gathering does these things best.
We should all be asking this question on a regular basis and trying to move whatever group we are part of towards being more effective in these areas when we meet.
Where I am at right now, I have no problem with any group that is really just trying to do these things the best way they know how. The problem is that most people are teaching that their best attempts are God’s mandates for everyone. That is just nonsense. We do not have enough information in the Scriptures to come to any such conclusion. Yes, there are things that some groups do that it is clear they must not do and some things that groups don’t do that they should do, but honestly I think we all need a big dose of humility and willingness to criticize our own methods.
Shaun, I am really happy for you that you are willing to give up the more typical method of gathering and I think that giving something else a try will probably be really good for you, your family, and those you share your life with who meet inside and outside the typical church service.
Right now my wife and I are part of a Church that runs its Sunday services in the typical passive, minimal participation way and are trying to be an influence towards changes in some of their weak and unhealthy methods. I think our times of stepping outside from these method of gathering has made us more able to be a good influence.
I really do think that some ways are genuinely better than others, but ultimately any group of Christians that are willing to humbly do their best and are open to change is the perfectly imperfect group worth investing yourself in.
Sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps.
George says:
Hey Shaun and everyone else,
This subject has been a big issue of contemplation, experimentation, and study for much of the last few years of my life and maybe some of my conclusions will help in this discussion.
First a little history:
I have attended a ton of different services, been part of (meaning I was genuinely invested in the lives of the people) more than just a few churches who practice the typical passive, low participation type services (some had great community apart from this and some were shamefully independent. Usually a bit of both.), have been part of a few house churches, and have gone through time when I officially did nothing except hang out with my Christian friends at times. For the record, most of the changes in what group I was a part of were due to me moving not me being disgruntled and leaving. There were exceptions though.
The point of me saying this is to show that if I do have a bias it is probably not from prejudice or ignorance, but rather from experience.
From reading the posts here I will assume that we for the most part looking to the scriptures as authoritative in our decision making. The thing is, we have to figure out which verse are prescriptive (telling us what we must do) and which verses are descriptive (telling us what people did, but not necessarily expecting us to follow their example). Of course many people are going to disagree with how we do or do not apply descriptive verses to our lives, but it is obvious that many verses are not explicit commands. The commands are what we are definitely bound to. So what are the commands regarding our gathering together?
We should share our goods and giftings with each other. This includes giving to the poor among us, missionaries, and those who sacrifice a straight job to serve the body.
We should practice Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
We should learn together in a way that is conducive to being clearly understood and open to immediate critisim.
We should adore God together.
I think that broadly covers it for things we are to do specificly when we gather as a group. Please correct me if I am wrong.
What is NOT clearly commanded is frequency, the exact mediums used, the priority level of each part, and the institutional connection to each other and the rest of the body of Christ.
Shaun is clearly not saying that he wants to stop doing any of these things with a group of believers, but instead is questioning what type of gathering does these things best.
We should all be asking this question on a regular basis and trying to move whatever group we are part of towards being more effective in these areas when we meet.
Where I am at right now, I have no problem with any group that is really just trying to do these things the best way they know how. The problem is that most people are teaching that their best attempts are God’s mandates for everyone. That is just nonsense. We do not have enough information in the Scriptures to come to any such conclusion. Yes, there are things that some groups do that it is clear they must not do and some things that group don’t do that they should do, but honestly I think we all need a big dose of humility and willingness to criticize our own methods.
Shaun, I am really happy for you that you are willing to give up the more “normal” method of gathering and I think that giving something else a try will probably be really good for you, your family, and those you share your life with who meet inside and outside the traditional church groups methods.
Right now my wife and I are part of a Church that runs its Sunday services in the typical passive, minimal participation way and are trying to be an influence towards changes in some of their weak and unhealthy methods. I think our times of stepping outside from these method of gathering has made us more able to do so.
I really do think that some ways are genuinely better than others, but ultimately any group of Christians that are willing to humbly do their best and are open to change is the perfectly imperfect group investing investing yourself in.
Sorry this is so log, but I hope it helps.
Zach says:
Shawn,
You’ve said: “Go ahead Zach read a constitution written by a man, to fit the needs of a man with the same agenda. Then read your Bible and tell what Jesus had to teach regarding the Kingdom.”
First off, I hope you didn’t think I was implying that any church I’ve ever seen is perfect.
Also, I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say about the constitution part. All churches will have constitutions and the by-laws and all that about how they’re supposed to run. Of course they are written by us, but they should definitely be taken from Scripture! In fact, that’s really my whole point. I think it’s a good idea to look at your church’s constitution so that you will know if it matches up with what Jesus taught.
Does this make a bit more sense? Maybe I wasn’t clear with what I said before.
Kat says:
Church, church, CHURCH, Church Inc….
Wow. This is beginning to sound like that old routine by Abbott and Costello, “Who’s on First?”
I’m a bit dizzy from all these comments.
Here’s what I think it comes down to:
Church is a group of believers following God – with a plan.
A plan to meet and worship, pray and minister to others.
Whether that’s in a building or a yard, it doesn’t matter.
I play soccer. If I run into people at the park and play a pick up game, I’m on a team. We’ll have fun, improve our skills and make friends, but that team will never win a tournament because it’s not organized.
If I form a team with friends and we plan to play in a league, I’m on a team. A team that could possibly win a tournament because we have a plan to practice, join a league and set (and make) goals.
So, whether it’s a group of neighborhood friends, or a big organized “Church” – it doesn’t really matter – as long as we’re intentionally following Jesus and intentionally acting on his commands.
Redneck Neighbor says:
Shawn you are correct I do not need a building to help me stay on the path. My church meets in a school and does not even have a “building” per se. It’s the people that I enjoy and the sermon, usually. The building has nothing to do with the church and the church is just one other thing that supports me in my accountability. It is down a few wrungs after personal accountability, family, and friends for example but every little bit helps in my opinion.
Dew says:
Does anyone know of any churches like the one Kat describes in Houston?? Possibly looking…!
Shaun Groves says:
If you’ve followed a link directly to this post, you should read the follow-up here.
revolution says:
i grow tired of hearing people throw around the phrase “the Bride of Christ.” i grow especially tired when that phrase is thrown directly at me. did i not become a member of the body of Christ when i placed my faith in Jesus and committed my life to following Him?
it just goes to show what a lowly view most people have of Jesus and His “Bride”. That whole “worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth” must have been a bunch of hooey. Someone should have told the Samaritan woman.
Scott says:
julieH
My observation was that you defined the church as a place, not a people, in the way that you talked about it…. (i.e. “go to” church)
My second comment was that “We see Him in the temple as a child learning from the imperfect human leaders.” Is simply not accurate. As I pointed out, He is and was God…they taught Him nothing. Perhaps you mis-wrote…
The third comment was not in response to your comment, but another. I just got “loose” with the cut & paste. My apologies.
I think that we (the churched) have to be very careful, because we live in a time of false teachers; a time where many people have a form of Godliness or religion, but do not have the real deal.
We want to make God and our relationship with him into something that fits our schedule or personality best, instead of the scriptures suggests.
I guess one should judge the body of believers based upon the fruits of the spirit…. regardless of which form of organization (or lack thereof) those believers elect to follow. As for me, I see the modern church in general (broad sweeping generalization) as inept (at best) or evil (at worst).
Denominationalism has superceded the Holy Spirit in interpreting the scriptures and that scares me. Subsequently, seminaries are churning out low voltage drones who are more interested in career preservation than the gospel…..
Anyway….I really hate e-mail or blog communications, because you can’t gauge the expression on my face or tone in my voice when I say these things. I hope you will believe me when I say that I don’t write to condemn you or your beliefs, but in hopes that you will question any authority (mine and yours) that contradicts the scriptures.
Erin says:
On more reflection my opinion is that church is be best way to be CHURCH for most people. Being CHURCH outside of church is hard work. So I don’t fault people who do CHURCH outside of church. But because i think it is an important institution I will go and support it. Kindda like this… I am no longer a college student but I’m interested in ministering to them so I attended the ice cream social that we threw for them. Not the only way for me to get to college students but the easiest.
MamasBoy says:
Doctrinal Accountability and Passing on the Faith.
You can choose:
A) To live out the Christian life with your brothers and sisters in your backyard informally
or
B) Live it out within the structure of a larger congregation.
This has implications for how the faith is passed on to our children.
My biggest worry in starting out on my own with the help of just my neighbors would be in passing on my faith to my kids. I’m not Baptist, but given the choice of passing on my faith with just the help of my neighbors outside of the context of a larger body of believers or passing it on with the help of the local Baptist congregation, I’d form my kids as Baptists. I would have more confidence that in two to three generations a good number of them would still believe in Jesus and love God and neighbor than if I struck out on my own. This is especially important to me, since my job may take me to another city. Formalized networks of people who share a common belief in Jesus have been helping parents pass on their faith since NT times.
Also, (in my experience) people most often leave the church or a given congregation not because of intellectual difficulty, but because of problems with other people. You can talk to your kids about not taking offense and forgiving people, but it is tough to live that out. I recently had a very good Christian take offense at me as a result of a misunderstanding and as a result not want to speak with me anymore in certain contexts. Misunderstandings and cruel words happen, even between two people trying hard to love the Lord. We may have the Holy Spirit, but living like Jesus is still a struggle. Even if your kids are willing to reconcile, how likely is it that their neighbors will be willing? I would worry more about my kids abandoning their faith if they have a strong distaste for church buildings because it is much more likely that they will run out of options for communal worship if they limit themselves to their neighborhood.
Now perhaps you could pass on the faith more effectively outside of the context of a local congregation. I don’t know your own situation, but I think I’d be better off myself with the help of the local Baptists.
Doctrinal Disadvantages: my kids might get more caught up in Baptist tradition than Jesus teaching.
Doctrinal Advantages: My kids are less likely to get caught up in their own hairbrained ideas that go against the wisdom of a couple millenia of Christian belief. Pride is more likely to rear its ugly head when not under the doctrinal authority/influence of a larger body of believers.
Pick your poison. Perhaps in a few years when you are 80 years old you will be very pleased with your choice. Perhaps not. Either way you choose, only time will tell. Our initial reactions to a decision are often not our final reactions.
MB
churchless christian says:
Very sharp points and very true points. It’s hard to deny the reality of what you say. We two have come to that conclusion.
Shaun Groves says:
Churchless, you need to read the next post and the one after that if you haven’t already.
michael says:
why I go to church.
1. jesus said he would build the church. it seems that the new testament is favorable towards believers meeting together in some capacity.
2. accountability.
3. i love corporate worship and teaching. i think it inspires and challenges a lot of people.
i know i could get some of the things mentioned (accountability, fellowship, prayer, etc) from other places, including community groups or my neighborhood, but it seems like when a church is really the church, all those things are molded into one living, breathing organism that is something spiritually unexplainable.
i would also agree that much of what is passed off as “church” is not really church, but a church service…a modern interpretation according to a group of people’s predispositions. nothing inherently wrong with that. but maybe “the church” should do some of the things that it’s not doing and stop doing some of the things that don’t really matter
Jeff Thompson says:
I think it’s much easier to stand on a soapbox than to actually DO something positive.
I think that it’s no new revelation that the church is screwed up – just like you and me.
I think Jesus calls the chruch his “bride” and bashing it instead of working to help beautify it is like telling someone “Hey – I love you but I can’t stand your wife.”
I think the Bible tells “Do not forsake the gathering of the saints, as some are in the habit of doing.”
My church isn’t perfect and it’s packed full of imperfect people. But guess what – I’m there every week, offering the little I have to help make her more beautiful for Christ.
What are you doing, bro?
Good dialogue.
Shaun Groves says:
First of all, and no hostility intended here, don’t “bro” me. We have a previously not articulated no bro rule. ; ) You wouldn’t happen to be a youth minister would you? Man, they love to bro. Actually, it’s evolved into the brah, so if you are a youth minister you’re probably not fresh out of college or you’d have learned that.
Anyway, sarcastic taunting aside…
If it’s ME you’re asking, here’s what I’m DOING:
1. I’m traveling to approximately 100 churches every year, speaking with approximately 75% of pastors at the churches I visit and talking with approximately 10,000 Christians in person at those churches in a year.
2. I’m speaking and singing while at these churches about “the Good News” of Mark 1, which is the kingdom come. God has arrived on earth and left behind the Church and the church to preach this Good News to the poor, to give sight to the blind and freedom to the oppressed and to defeat the Enemy of God. That’s what I try to educated and inspire others to.
3. I give to my local church – my time, money and talent when needed – and specifically to their food pantry that counsels and provides food for families whose ends aren’t meeting at the moment.
4. I mobilize people through my blog to care about one another, their neighbor, the poor across the street and around the world. Specifically we, the Church, at Shlog.com have saved dozens of kids from poverty together.
5. I’m writing a book that will be distributed by a large denominational press – a book about the Kingdom, who’s in it, why, and how they live. I chose a denominational press simply because I’m not writing for the emergent church who’s already thinking these thoughts – I’m writing for people like me in mainstream denominations who haven’t heard what they’re saved for yet – and we’ll give away hundreds of copies to pastors in hopes that this message will infect the American churches.
That’s some of what I’m DOING to be the Church God intended, to inspire and mobilize and educate the local church, and to serve both.
To speak about church/Church honestly is no more bashing her than questioning the actions of a president (his war or his oral sex tendencies) is bashing a country. I am not questioning the God of the Church (though I think He’d be OK with that) or it’s beauty to Him or me. I am questioning MY and YOUR motives for being involved in it, it’s methods in modern American society, it’s effectiveness at accomplishing the mission it was given by Christ (The Good News) and some of it’s present HUMAN leadership. Specifically I am question their use of God’s money for programs which God has not commanded us to erect and their failure to use God’s money for those programs which HAS seemingly commanded us to erect.
At the same time I have written three other posts on the subject of church after this one which “bash” not going to church at all and question whether one right way of doing church exists in God’s mind and asserts that perhaps the best questions regarding church don’t deal with whether we go to church or what kind we go to but WHY we go. That’s not bashing is it? That’s conversation starting – the kind of conversation that birthed the Reformation and the Civil Rights Movement and the American Revolution. Should they not have bashed the Catholic Church and it’s indulgences, the bigots in Selma, or King George’s “oppression”? Change is a messy business, Jeremy. Roll up your sleeves and dive in with us, brah. Your thoughts are welcome.
Regarding your thoughts: Assembly of the saints – or gathering – isn’t defined in scripture as we’ve defined it today in America. Is a gathering friends in the front yard, or in the kitchen or under a steeple? What is the form of this gathering? Is the gathering defined by the form or by its purpose? Or both?
Jeff Thompson says:
My apologies for the use of “bro”. It was done in poor taste – my bad. But no – I’m not a youth pastor and neitehr do I have a youth pastor gotee (unlike a certain singer/songwriter who until fiarly recently did).
Thanks for the in-depth response. I have a lot more respect for what you’re saying if you’re involved in your local church. I’m just, justifiably, leery of dude’s who travel around judging churches while living off of them, and never plug in to a local group of believers do live the mess that is life together. If you’re doing that, then this conversation is definitely valid.
I think that “the gathering of saints” as mentioend in the Word is fascinatingly vague. We know that they met together to build each other up in their faith and encourage each other in every good work. They met together because “iron sharpens iron”.
I just hear way to many people bashing the church who obviously have issues with authority, despite the fact that the New Testement lays out the qualifying traits of deacons and elders who are in fact authority figures. At the very least, they were put in place to help guide the church and keep her on “the straight and narrow”. Any way you slice it, this whole “church doesn’t need leaders” rhetoric that I hear form some people is just un-Biblical crap.
The Bible tells us to “sing praise” to God a couple hundred times! If you can do this by yourself, I guess you don’t need corporate worship. I’m good with that and God probably is too.
I think that there’s nothing wrong with having a pastor stand up and teach while people sit and listen. The discussion should be in fellowship after the message is delivered. You of all people should get this as you depend on this format to make a living! It’s funny to me how Jesus and the disciples preached yet I hear tons anti-authoritarians saying “we shouldn’t just have to listen to one dude preach”. Listen, then discuss. The Bible seems to follow that model.
I don’t have a problem with discussing the church and her issues as long as 2 criteria are met:
The person offering critiques must be currently involved and serving in their local church.
The spirit of the criticism must be pure. I know that sounds high and mighty but I’m simply saying we should check our hearts and motivations first (that’s not some backhanded dig – I promise).
Thanks for talking about stuff that I appreciate the fact that you talk about things that actually matter.
Shaun Groves says:
Thanks, Jeremy. Here comes a small push on those criteria.
#1 Not sure I value the thoughts of someone who has stopped going to a church building less than someone who hasn’t…yet. I think those who leave have much to to teach us who haven’t…yet. If they keep meeting with other Christians in some form I think, in particular, they can help those of us in traditional church models discover what really matters about our meetings. Is it the building? Well, they don’t have one and they still seem like a church. is it the music program or the nursery or the paid staff? Well, they look like they’re being a church together and they don’t have that stuff. FOr me the lessons are endless.
#2 You and I can’t know what those motivations are – how “pure” they are. I agree they need to be but who’s to make that determination. I can’t determine my own motivations all that well, much less yours. But, yes, we should watch our own the best we can with our poor minds.
And thanks for the thanks.
Cynthia says:
Shaun,
Not to make light of the great points made above, did you shave your gotee?
Shaun Groves says:
I don’t HAVE a gotee and haven’t since college. I had three stripes that MAY be construed as a gotee, way back in 2000-2002 but I killed that. I shave once a week, maybe once every two weeks, so in between shaves I have some scruff that’s thinner on the sides and THAT might be construed as a gotee as well, but it’s not. Not technically. Technically it’s a very puny beard. I have that right now. I’m on day 4.
Phil Christensen says:
I guess serving the Bride of Christ isn’t a very good reason to go to Church.
Shaun Groves says:
Phil, you need to read the other posts in this series. I’m saying what you might think I’m saying. I’m playing devil’s advocate in this post – I’m not actually the devil.
Read the linked to posts at the end of this one. It says Now read this and this. Read the this-es.