Shaun Groves
I’ve not said it’s wrong to buy an iPhone. Yet I’m being told in these comments here and in my mailbox that I have. People have said things like “Well, how’s it different from buying a movie ticket?” or “Do you own a car?” or “How much did you spend on your laptop?”
The logic of the questioner might go something like this I suppose: If it is a bad thing to spend $600 on a phone because that’s money that could meet a need for someone else then is it also true that I shouldn’t buy anything I don’t need?
Again, I haven’t said it’s bad to own an iPhone. I haven’t said the money could be used to feed kids or build hospitals or any other good stuff. But I’ll do my best to answer this tough question anyway.
Should I spend money and time and energy on myself if those resources could be spent to meet real needs for others?
Yes. That’s how I actually live. I buy fast food. I have two home phones. I buy music. I go on a date with my wife every week, during which we go out to eat and sometimes see a movie. I own more shirts than the one on my back. I use hair gel. I bought fireworks yesterday. To answer any other way then would be hypocritical.
I own one car (got it at half price as a trade for playing a show at a dealership). I own a laptop ($700). I don’t have cable. My cell phone cost me $19 and is only used when I’m on the road away from my family. We don’t have long distance but use calling cards instead. We recycle everything. Nothing is bought at the grocery store without a coupon. We grow many of our own vegetables and a couple herbs. I cut my own hair. I own three pairs of jeans, two pairs of shorts, one t-shirt in six colors, and one pair of shoes. We run our air hotter than I’d prefer. I live in a smaller house than I used to. But “yes”, is still the answer my life gives.
“No”, might be the right answer though. But like many right answers it’s not practical. And it would work best – I’m theorizing – only if lived out by millions of Christians at once. If millions of us lived “no” than the amount of sacrifice required of each of us would be less – maybe. Maybe then “no” would be more practical, or at least less weird and uncomfortable.
So, though I’ve never said it before I’ll say it now: No, buying a $600 non-neccessity like an iPhone is not the best decision for a Christian to make when considering how many needs that cash could meet. But, yes, I make the same sort of bad decision every day.
So what do we do about it?
While you ponder, I need to go call a baby sitter so I can spend $40 on child care and at least $30 on dinner for two tonight.
Oh, and here’s Rob.
Vicki says:
All I know is, people seem to “need” a lot more things today. I’m fifty-two, so that’s ancient, I know. But I went to college with a manual typewriter and an AM/FM radio. My 20-something children went to college with a computer, printer, little refrigerator, microwave, CD player, cell phone and television. My son “needed” an iPod, so he put it on a credit card and slowly paid it off.
They have so many things they can’t live without, so much “stuff” to take with them, and then they want to save the planet?
I’m looking forward to my electric bill going down when my daughter moves out and my son goes back to college.
Cpt. Crayon says:
“I cut my own hair.”
This explains a lot.
Todd says:
So what are the implications of Rob’s thought?
Kyle says:
yes, it sucks that people spend money on things they don’t need…but then again, (what little i understand about economics) we can make the money we do give to the poor because people buy things they don’t need. That is the country that we live in.
Shaun Groves says:
So am I summarizing your thought accurately, Kyle, by restating it this way:
“It sucks that people die but more would die if we didn’t buy so much stuff we don’t need.”
Or is this more accurate?
“It sucks that people die because people with more than enough don’t help them but, hey, that’s life. I don’t care.”
Or can you restate your thought, because it sounds calloused at worse and illogical at best the way I’m reading it right now?
—————–
Good question, Todd. I’m gonna shut up for a while now and hope a discussion breaks out looking for answers to it.
Cpt. Crayon says:
I think he’s saying that the way our the market economy works, the reason we have “extra” money is because we buy “extra” stuff. Kind of a cycle.
Or in other words, if not for all those people buying junk, then the money that comes from all that junk wouldn’t be available to give away.
We only make money ‘cause we spend it.
Is that about right, or am I just misinterpreting what he said?
Todd says:
Question: Does being rich = being blessed?
Every Sunday when we take up the contribution, almost without fail the prayer mentions something about the rich blessings we have received. Does our money count as one of those blessings?
If yes, then how can we be faulted for enjoying our blessings?
If no, then what are we supposed to with all of this money we’ve received/made/stole/acquired?
Katie Larson says:
OK: the bible, I think, calls us to a hugely high standard with money. It tells us to give generously to all without finding fault. it tells us to give cheerfully, it tells us to live in a way where we are not controlled by greed or consumerism. It tells us to love God more than anything else. If we live the way that the bible tells us, I believe, our finances will be affected….The love of Christ will compel us to give. That being said, the biblical standard also (i think) doesn’t allow us to make black and white statements like “it is always without a doubt wrong to buy an Iphone!”
I know that I sometimes feel frustrated and dissapointed in myself over how I spend my money. While I’d never consider buying anything other than the phone that comes free with the cell phone plan, there are many other ways I
“waste” my money. This is partially because I am in the wrong, and partically because it’s just a reality in a world where a small percentage of people are very rich and many many many people are very poor. I lived for a year in Kenya in a very poor part of the world and so I KNOW for a fact what the money I spend on a four dollar cup of coffee at Starbucks could buy for someone in need; the question, i think, is more along the lines of “am I loving Christ above my own financial freedom and my own ability to meet my own needs?” To really love Christ, to really know the Gospel, drastically changes the way I spend my money. Largely because it isn’t MY money any more.
but, that doesn’t take away the hard questions about how I spend my resources. Sometimes I get selfish, sometimes I forget that God is the one really in charge and I think that “i deserve” the new CD or clothes or whatever have you. Sometimes I need to repent of how I selfishly spend my money.
Other times I really do feel like it is OK for me to spend that money because I have been seeking after God’s heart in this matter and I have prayed about what I am going to give and budgeted and felt comfortable with what I am giving.
It isn’t so easy anymore, but I think it is a better thing than just totally living selfishly or than always feeling bad everytime I spend money on anything.
Aims says:
Okay the thing you have to ask yourself is do you need it. If you say no then you ask yourself can I afford it? As in totally having a lot of extra dough around the house and it not being a total problem. If you say yes then ask yourself well do I have a credit card payment or other bill that I could totally cut down to size using the 600 buck. If the answer is yes use it on the bill if the answer is no by all means splurge buy the iphone…but remember it won’t bring happiness it’s just a material thing.
Seth Ward says:
I agree with you.
The problem one runs into in these kinds of conversations is one of absolutes. I don’t think that there are any here besides, “Many Christians don’t give near enough to the poor and spend too much on themselves.” Which is undeniably and tragically true. But even in that statement, it is a matter of judgment and cost.
However we like to simplify the matters into formulas like:
iPhone=bad (what if it was a gift or you bought if off ebay for 19 dollars?)
and so forth.
I like Rob’s video. It makes me think, “Why aren’t there a zillion blogs about our addiction to Ice Cream?” He is right. I’ll probably spend waaaaay more than 600 bucks on Ice Cream this year and it is much less useful than the iPhone (if I were to spend full price and buy it.) plus Ice Cream makes me fat while others starve.
Worse than the 600 dollar iPhone hands down.
Shaun Groves says:
Does our money count as one of those blessings?
If yes, then how can we be faulted for enjoying our blessings?
Todd, great question.
Here’s MY answer. Would love to hear others.
In Genesis God makes a deal (covenant) with Abraham and his descendants. God promised He would multiply his family and “bless” them. But there was another end to this bargain: “And I will make you a blessing to all nations.”
The blessings I have – I’m thinking – are only passing through me to the rest of the world. I see myself as a conduit, not a cup with a lid…duct taped shut and locked in a vault somewhere.
kyle says:
Cpt. Crayon was closer to my point…the only reason why bands like Caedmon’s Call can go to other countries and minister in the way they do is because of people like me who buy their cd’s i don’t need and pay to see them play when i don’t need to. The only reason i have money to give is because people go into stores and buy things they don’t need. Can it be changed? I don’t know. Do I try to do my part? yes, could i do more? absolutely. I don’t want to sound harsh or mean, but the sytem i am in gives me what i have so i can give to others(well ulitmately that is God, but hopefully you get the point).
Ronna says:
Hey Shaun,
Thanks for posting that video. I had no idea what the statistics were. They blew me away.
Katherine Coble says:
1. iPhones are made by people. People in Taiwan who need jobs.
If we don’t buy an iPhone for $600 dollars a lot of people in Taiwan won’t be able to feed their families.
2. Every seemingly unnecessary product is a job for at least four people:
–The person who makes the stuff the widget is made from
–The person who makes the widget
–The person who drives the widget to the store
–The person who works in the store where you buy the widget.
No, an iPhone is NOT necessary in the same Maslovian way as, say, bread, but such products DO ensure that human beings are able to buy their own bread. And iPhones.
Besides which, isn’t it at all possible that we aren’t called to judge the spending habits of others?
Chaotic Hammer says:
I know this isn’t the point, and I don’t mean to be contentious about it, but there’s a huge hole in Rob’s statement that $20 billion would be enough to give basic necessities to everyone in the world: Simply, that the world systems currently in place actively work to prevent that from happening. Oppressive regimes, deliberate use of starvation and genocide as a weapon, hoarding by the very wealthy rulers of some of the poorest nations in the world, misuse and misappropriation of the resources that were sent with the intention of helping people, prolonged histories of conflict between specific groups of people, and on and on—the factors that contribute to the problem are myriad. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to help, but it does mean that throwing all the world’s problems at the feet of Americans for eating ice cream is way off base, and doesn’t even begin to address some of the real causes of these problems.
If there really was a “feed everyone in the world fund” that we could simply donate cash to, we would be all over it. Private donations from middle-class Americans would cover it overnight. In fact Americans gave nearly $300 billion to charity in 2006. As a percentage of GDP, Americans give more than twice as much as the next closest nation. Since $300 billion is way more than the $20 billion figure Rob quoted, I have to conclude that it’s not a simple matter of dollars and cents being offered to help. There’s something else getting in the way.
And whatever that “something” may be, I would argue that this is all the more reason to give to organizations like Compassion International, because they take what is a relatively small amount of money by our standards, and fly under the radar of all the oppressive rulers and evil powers, and help directly with real people in need.
As far as how much money we each have, which car we drive, and whether or not we have an iPhone, this should really be simpler than we are making it. I would urge everyone to read Romans 14. I believe that the counsel and wisdom there are applicable to this situation, because it is a matter of conscience. Each of us will give an accounting to one Master, and will answer for what we did with what we were given.
I think it’s good and healthy to ask hard questions and give relevant testimonies about what the Lord has convicted each of us personally about, regarding what we’re doing with our stuff, and what we’re doing to serve Him. For example, the Krusty Sage has been doing an excellent job of presenting good, sound, advice about a number of hard subjects, but without judging or condemning anyone. In the end, I think the whole iPhone thing is just a randomly-selected criterion of the moment, which will have amounted to a tempest in a teapot when it’s all said and done.
Note to Shaun: Maybe it sounds like I’m saying you judged or condemned, but I don’t think you did. As you stated from the start, statements were attributed to you that you simply didn’t make. I, for one, genuinely appreciate your constant willingness to stick your neck out there and ask hard questions to help people in examining their hearts and motives. Just wanted to be clear about that.
inWorship says:
I appreciate the discussion and passion that is taking place here. My blog is too small to drum up this kind of attention, so I figured I’d hang out here for a bit.
One of the things that comes to mind in all of this is that money or the lack of money seems to always be the main issue with how people in need are taken care of. There is no doubt that money can help and is necessary to buy food, clothing, etc., but, it seems to me that coming along side of people and caring for them is more powerful. Feeding the and training them…loving them. I guess with huge issues in places like Africa, all we can hope for is money to send food. It’s too big for any person to deal with. I guess that is why there is so much global participation for raising awareness and money.
Shaun you have done great work with Compassion, thank you. What does Compassion say to people when they say that it feels so impersonal? How do people react to this? I am sure that loads of money can put food together for a group of people, but is that enough? Shouldn’t this whole process become more personal? I understand that there can be communication between an “adopted” child in Compassion…is that enough. I’m not saying that isn’t good, I just am really trying to figure out how we can be better at this and if money is the only issue, I don’t think people in need will ever be properly cared for.
Barbara says:
I won’t jump in on the discussion, Just wanted to thank you for having it. Thanks
MamasBoy says:
CH: “there’s a huge hole in Rob’s statement that $20 billion would be enough to give basic necessities to everyone in the world: Simply, that the world systems currently in place actively work to prevent that from happening.”
MB: CHammer, excellent point.
I think that this is one example of the importance of good people in government. Systems won’t change if good people bow out of the process and leave the work to others. The implication in a country with representative government is that if good people don’t vote, then the unjust systems won’t be changed.
MB
Scott says:
Wow. It’s funny how cranky some people can get over the mere suggestion…the question even…that maybe their values are the tiniest bit “out of whack”. I spend money frivolously, but less than I used to. I am content with what I have. I could be content with less. I couldn’t be more content with more. That’s the thing about being content; It doesn’t come in degrees. I have stuff, but stuff doesn’t have me. If we didn’t have such a consumerism mentality, maybe fewer moms would have to abondon their children to daycare. Maybe fewer dads would feel the desire to work endless hours, at the expense of time with their sons. Alas….none of that would sit so well in a land where “keeping up with the Joneses” has become a reality show that we can’t turn off. I think this Christmas we may make all of our gifts. Who would like to do the same? We could really make a statement. I don’t have some misguided belief that I have to spend like a drunken sailor on cheap Chinese Spiderman action figures or the people who get paid (I use that term loosely) to make them will die…
Shaun Groves says:
Shaun you have done great work with Compassion, thank you. What does Compassion say to people when they say that it feels so impersonal? How do people react to this? I am sure that loads of money can put food together for a group of people, but is that enough? Shouldn’t this whole process become more personal? I understand that there can be communication between an “adopted” child in Compassion…is that enough. I’m not saying that isn’t good, I just am really trying to figure out how we can be better at this and if money is the only issue, I don’t think people in need will ever be properly cared for.
So glad you asked this. I’ll answer more fully someday in a post but for now…
I don’t know what Compassion employees would say to you but I say that what Compassion does is intensely personal.
One reason I support what they do is because our financial support (yours and mine) gets funneled to the local church, the local pastor, the local volunteers and teachers etc who then have the personal relationship with the children they serve…and their families. In my sponsor child’s case this personal interaction led to her mother and father being changed drastically over time.
When I first met Wes, the president of COmpassion, I told him I was hesitant to support what they do at my shows because I really wanted to point my audience toward a “cause” they could be more personally involved in. I believe what I said actually was that I wanted my fans to have the opportunity to “go personally to people in need and help them.”
We talked for a while about that and gave me some things to think through. I did. I read. I asked questions. And what I now believe is that it does more harm than good – much of the time, but not always – for us from the West to go into other cultures to do the work that needs doing in person. Missiologists smarter than I talk about the importance of enabling “nationals” – people from the culture – to do the work that needs done, whatever that work is. I think empowering them, training them, funding them and praying for them as they personally help is the ideal – though certainly not the only way things can be done.
So you and I, when we support Compassion’s work, are not the inn keepers. We are the Samaritan who sees the need and entrusts the need to the inn keeper and says “Put this on my tab.” That may seem impersonal, but not to the inn keeper or the man/woman/child being cared for by him.
Does that help?
inWorship says:
I think that does help. I’ve got to be honest, I’ve dealt with a lot of concerts coming through town to our church that have taken the 20 minute break to talk about Compassion, I’ve never heard what you just said.
One thin you said gets me excited…
“Missiologists smarter than I talk about the importance of enabling “nationals” – people from the culture – to do the work that needs done, whatever that work is. I think empowering them, training them, funding them and praying for them as they personally help is the ideal – though certainly not the only way things can be done.”
I agree that this not the only way things can be done, but it does seem like a very valuable one. I kind of agree with Chaotic Hammer in that our “systems” whether here or abroad need some help. When we come alongside of communities in places of need (whether in Oregon or Africa) with training, support and yes money, it seems that these communities can become communities that maybe in the next generation can speak of harsh times that are “no longer”. I am sure there is a huge dynamic with governments and such, but would the church be a better servant is it partnered with communities in places of need? Is that even possible. I do hear what you are saying with the “concern” for people “going there”. there a lot of people I know that should never “go there”.
Shaun Groves says:
Stir…
1. iPhones are made by people. People in Taiwan who need jobs. If we don’t buy an iPhone for $600 dollars a lot of people in Taiwan won’t be able to feed their families.
Johns have sex with women in the red light district of Amsterdam 24 hours a day…legally. If they don’t these women won’t have jobs. Porshe employs tens of thousands of people, if we stop buying their 100K SUV those people will lose their jobs. Joel Osteen employees dozens (if not hundreds), so if we stop buying his theologically erroneous books and watching his tv show those people will lose jobs. I understand the point, but the logic breaks down when applied everywhere. (Note: I’m not saying iPhones are equivalent to tricks, luxury cars or bad theology.)
2. Every seemingly unnecessary product is a job for at least four people:
–The person who makes the stuff the widget is made from
–The person who makes the widget
–The person who drives the widget to the store
–The person who works in the store where you buy the widget.
Every jet airplane is a job for at least four people.
–The person who makes the stuff the jet is made from
–The person who makes the jet
–The person who drives the jet to the dealer
–The person who sells the jet
(Note: iPhones are not equivalent to jets but a jet is something you’d be shocked if your pastor bought for his private use right? Why not the iPhone? Where’s the line somewhere between phone and jet?)
No, an iPhone is NOT necessary in the same Maslovian way as, say, bread, but such products DO ensure that human beings are able to buy their own bread.
Nor are legal tricks, luxury cars, bad theology or jets necessary but selling all of these items allows someone to buy bread for their family…and tricks, luxury cars, more bad theology and jets.
Besides which, isn’t it at all possible that we aren’t called to judge the spending habits of others?
I really should post someday about this word “judge” and how badly it is redefined in the modern culture. I’m not punishing (a better modern synonym for the biblical concept of judging) anyone for their spending habits. I’m questioning the spending habits of us ALL and hoping to gain a little wisdom to better help me manage my own in the process.
Ryan G. says:
Wow. Great discussion. Wisdom gained….I hope.
Cpt. Crayon says:
If you want kool-aid, gotta do a little stirrin’.
keith says:
Along these lines, my dad is trying to sell his bike… if anyone (or anyone’s pastor) is interested. It’ll help indirectly put bread on German tables.
Billy Chia says:
Shaun,
Great post. I’ve been subscribing to your rss feed for 3 weeks (at the recommendation of bloggers I trust) but this is the first post I actually took the time to read all the way. (This is partially due to the fact that your feed loses all the formating and gives me one big chunk o’ text)
These are great questions to ask. I work as a waiter in nice restaurant. The complete existence of my restaurant you could certainly argue is as nonessential as the iphone. And yet this is how I feed my family, pay my bills and support ministry.
I think there’s something about celebration that’s essential to faith. Jesus celebrated all the time with a great deal of food and wine. People even called him a glutton and a drunkard.
I think Jesus would eat at my restaurant. I think he would say that when you eat the good food and drink good wine served by a talented staff with a group of good friends then you get closer to God because God is good.
Seth Ward says:
But Shaun, you could do the same thing about ANYTHING that is made or purchased with a few exceptions. That includes your 19-dollar phone. In just about everything there lies the seed of evil. Except for maybe… a tomato… in my Grandma’s backyard.
If it has to do with earning money, it has self-interest; therefore it has some evul going on there. Right? You can’t really get away from the Capitalism conundrum that Christians who aren’t commies face can we?
How did I make my money this week so I could give to compassion? I played at an enormously rich church that pays me and the pastors well and buys fancy chandeliers and they could probably get volunteers for about every minister job and do the whole church thing in a tent and spend everything else on the poor.
So am I up there with the iphone and the jet and the hooker as a paid luxurious commodity that could be money spent in other ways? (Me loooooow down on the totem pole of the paid hired help btw.)
Even though you are not comparing iphones to hookers…. you use the comparison… so which is it?
I’m getting a little tangled up here. Throw me a bone. Then again, you weren’t talking to me so… ignore away if you wish.
But I think gaining wisdom is a good goal and this is a good post my Amish friend and you should definitely post on the word “judge.”
Cheers.
MamasBoy says:
My sister-in-law’s convent is built on the property that a famous Catholic philanthropist was using to build his next big mansion (and his first one wasn’t too shabby). Then it hit him that all he was doing with his wealth was building up treasures on earth, so he stopped mid-construction. I’ve walked around on the partially framed structure. It’s kind of weird to look at. The guy also sold off most of his Ferrari’s and several planes and took what could be referred to as a “multi-millionaire’s vow of poverty.” Yeah, he still has a Ferrari (I’ve seen him driving it past the convent) and his own private golf course and lots of other stuff I will never own, but he’s also done a lot of good with his money. He’s used his money and property and talents to help found a university, a law school, several Christian primary schools, a religious radio station and associated media outlet and the list goes on. Those are just the public ones that make the headlines because you can’t hide charitable work like that. Yet, he still has a Ferrari and compared to the average *middle to upper class American* lives a life of extreme luxury.
Will this philanthropist answer for owning that Ferrari and not doing more for the poor? Perhaps. I don’t know. However, I think it is more a matter of the heart than simply a list of the cost of things or their ranking as a luxury item vs. a necessity. Personally, I’m willing to give him a pass for owning a Ferrari.
Having said that I mostly agree with some of Shaun’s detractors, it doesn’t seem like I’ve said anything that Shaun would disagree with either. That puzzles me.
It is good to question these things and to ask ourselves if the cost is really worth it. I struggle to do that every year/week/day. Companies are spending billions on advertising trying to convince us to buy their product and/or to live a more hedonistic lifestyle. It’s good to have people who question that.
Thanks Shaun for questioning.
MB
Mr. Police Man says:
Its funny that when we talk about money the conversation seams to get heated.
Either we are like you Shaun and live simple lives or we are like me and WANT, WANT, WANT…it all comes back to money and being satisfied.
I think if we were truely satisfied with Christ (which I’m not because I want, want, want) we wouldn’t be having this discussion. In fact, I think it would be a little opposite. We would be talking about how a congregation member bought their communications pastor this phone so that he would be more productive in his job and so he could feel loved by the extra gadgets the phone has.
Shaun, you are a thinker on a different level than I. I enjoy reading your questions/challenges!
Shaun Groves says:
I wonder if what’s confusing (bothering?) some folks is that I’m not offering a program, a rule, a black and white answer to the question in this post.
Some – if I’m interpreting their comments and e-mails correctly – seem to be asking me to define some stuff I just can’t. I don’t know how much “enough” is. I’ve posted about that before. I don’t know if Jesus would eat here or there. I don’t know if the ends (jobs) justify the means (my purchases). I don’t know if we can live a life without any non-neccessities (though I doubt it, and I don’t why not either.). I don’t know.
I haven’t offered answers to these questions in my post because I DO believe we should wrestle through this stuff together as communities of Christians, comparing our lives only to what we do know from scripture (the character and priorities of God) and not one another.
I don’t have to know everything to know something. I don’t have to know exactly what should have been done in WWI to defeat the Japanese to know that what we did do (Hiroshima, the death of thousands of children and other innocents) was a violation of God’s law and Just War doctrine. (Note: iPhones are not the equivalent of nukes)
As far as harming people who make stuff by not buying their stuff (an argument that has come up a couple times in a few versions)… Of course if we stop buying iPhones NOW some folks will lose their jobs. How ‘bout if the demand never existed? if there never was a market for such a cool contraption? What then? Would those iPhone makers be jobless today? Like war, again, the solution isn’t best found once the shots have been fired, but before. The answer to Hitler is harder to find once he’s marching across Europe and much easier to find when the Lutheran Church in Germany is debating amongst itself whether to support or oppose this new guy named Hitler who promised them good roads and a great economy. Solve the problem on the front end if you can…and we can. People will not make what we will not buy.
And…When the jobs lost by our refusal to buy stuff we don’t need (however you personally define that) are in third world countries (and they’re not for the iPhone, from what I can learn on-line) yes, that should concern us as Christians and we should work from the bottom up in that economy (something Compassion’s LDP program does well, I think) so that those jobs are replaced. Again, this is solving before the problem and not after it. I don’t mean to imply that I don’t care about lost jobs or that the loss of jobs is a problem easily solved. My apologies for coming across that way before.
If what any of us is looking for is an easy answer with no downside, we’ll never find it. Obedience (if obedience is spending money on a yacht or a popsicle) has consequences. Every choice does.
If enough children were sponsored through Compassion International it COULD, theoretically, put government workers who run state programs out of work…in theory. A Baptist Childrens’ Home in Tennessee takes “market share” from social workers right? Just using FedEx has consequences on USPS. But these are still things we’d say are good investments of our time and money at times. Despite the negative consequences to others.
What ever choices you make when it comes to your spending of money, time and attention, you will impact the people connected to the other myriad of things you could have spent money, time and attention on. This doesn’t stop you from making such choices on a daily basis without angst welling up inside you, or, more likely, without thinking about all this at all. So why does THIS issue cause such distress over consequences?
Or does it really?
Not to stir up a storm here, but I don’t buy that anyone here is actually buying stuff because they want to give people in Taiwan jobs. I don’t. I think it’s an intelligent, complex, brilliant smokescreen. And nothing more. What’s the real reason we buy stuff we don’t need? We want it. And we can afford it. That’s it. I don’t think there’s much thought beyond that. That’s not evil. So why not just be honest about it?
Billy Chia says:
Shaun,
I didn’t raise my point to attack you or ask you to define a line. (Although it seems others have. I think they are silly and you are right. I agree with you that simply becuase we can’t define the line doesn’t mean we shouldn’t wrestle with where it exists)
I read all the comments here and it seems there’s a missing component to this discussion:
God enjoys excellence.
I don’t think you can have the discussion “Is it wrong to buy and iPhone?” with out asking, ”Does God delight in the iPhone becuase it is a clever device excellently made?”
Doesn’t God delight when we enjoy good food or Good music? Or any type of good art or something that brings us joy?
After all you and I may have cheap computers but how much money did we spend on our guitars?
I think you, as a talented musician, are justified in owning a nice guitar in the same way some might be justified in owning an iPhone or a jet. (I have some trouble justifying prostitution.)
There is of course a line between God delighting in our joy and overconsumption. Especially when our joy comes at the expense of others.
Thanks for the questions you are asking and your responses. Your thoughts are both insightful and articulate. I’ll be checking back here more often.
Sarah Chia says:
Shaun,
Thanks for your post. It’s caused quite a lively discussion at my house (this is a good thing!)
My husband commented above, and I thought I’d add my 2 cents (although, really, if you ask me, it’s worth about $100, at least).
Anyway, we were discussing whether or not there’s more wealth in the world today, as economists tell us there is. The whole spending money makes more money and that’s more money to give away argument.
My opinion is that there’s only a facade of more wealth due to most people in 1st world countries living in debt. In America, the debt of our citizens and our government is almost 9 billion dollars. But there’s not actually that much money because when banks lend money, it’s false money. If we had a run on the banks today, we’d have a worse depression than in the 30s.
Anyway…what’s my point? Well, my point is that I think unless people are living debt-free and buying things with cash then high-dollar purchases are probably sinful. If someone’s debt-free and wanting an iPhone, well…then we can talk.
When you add to that the question of eliminating world hunger, it becomes a question of what kind of lifestyles we’re willing to sacrifice. Today’s lifestyle in America is centered around money. We’ve lost a lot of the local bartering systems that allow for less money and more camaraderie. But if we move toward that type of lifestyle, then we’re bound to sacrifice the global connections that we currently have. Personally, I like both. So, I don’t know where I go from here.
Shaun Groves says:
God enjoys excellence.
Says who? (no sarcasm or “tone” intended) But, seriously, says who?
I heard this a lot while on staff at a church trying to justify their spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on sound system and lighting and building enhancements. God loves excellence? Says who? Define “excellence.”
Not saying you’re wrong, I just don’t know you to be right either.
Gotta eat some lunch before catching my next flight. I’ll catch up on the rest of this discussion later. Thanks for participating in it, everybody.
Bapster says:
A side note,,,,
“One reason I support what they do is because our financial support (yours and mine) gets funneled to the local church, the local pastor, the local volunteers and teachers etc who then have the personal relationship with the children they serve…and their families. In my sponsor child’s case this personal interaction led to her mother and father being changed drastically over time.”
Thank you for your words above Shaun.
I am often concerned by the lack of reporting on this aspect of these types of organizations.
Michelle says:
Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to fall into the “Thou doth protest too much” camp. In other words, anyone who gets offended by someone questioning any of their actions or decisions, so offended that instead of answering logically or with any actual reasons, they puff up and defend their actions with that almighty excuse “But everyone else is doing it” … someone who gets that offended might have been fighting those same questions in their own mind for a while and just now got them silenced before everyone else started bringing it up. Just a thought.
Author Nate Larkin makes a great point that the American version of Christianity (me and Jesus and no one else) simply does not work. We must have accountability, we must have true community, we must have honesty. Those aren’t things we tend to like in America. I know that’s not really the to buy/not to buy issue we’re discussing here, but it’s one I couldn’t help creeping in a bit.
Billy Chia says:
“Says who?”
I love it man. You totally called me on a great point. I can’t point to a Bible verse that says, “God enjoys excellence.” But throughout the narrative of Scripture I see God being pleased with things being down well with proper order.
I wrestle with what “excellence” means especially when it comes to churches using it to justify extravagant purchases.
At the same time when I read about the construction of the Tabernacle or Solomon’s Temple those seem extravagant too.
Bezalel and Oholiab are heroes of mine because they were “filled with the Spirit of God” and “Skillful.” It seems to me that God cares about things being done with skill.
Katherine Coble says:
First off let me state outright that I do not have an iPhone.
I do have an iMac, though. And I earn my living directly from this iMac and what it enables me to produce.
My husband has earned his living for many years from cell phone apps and accessories.
They may all seem “unnecessary” to you, but I assure you that those things enable us to have our lifestyle. That lifestyle includes a healthy dose of giving back to our communities in many ways, both in money and time. We consider ourselves tentmaker ministers in that we are able to support our lifestyle ministries without passing the hat. We earn our keep for 60 hours a week and then spend the rest of the time–time we’ve earned–toiling in the fields of the Lord.
That’s my issue with statements of judgement about how Christians spend their resources of Time and Money.
Todd says:
I’ve heard verses like Numbers 18:12 (giving God your best crops) being used to show that God desires our best, not just in our financial or material giving, but in every area of life. When it comes to putting together a church building and its components and events we should similarly be offering the best we can to our God.
Or something like that. I’m not sure I buy it. But as far as rationalizations go, it’s pretty creative.
Scott says:
“I’ve heard verses like Numbers 18:12 (giving God your best crops) being used to show that God desires our best, not just in our financial or material giving, but in every area of life. When it comes to putting together a church building and its components and events we should similarly be offering the best we can to our God.”
I am a big fan of the churches who go into massive debt to build extravagant buildings with sound systems that rival concert venues. There is no place in scripture where God uses or recommends debt to accomplish His will. The entire modern church, as we know it in America, would be foreign to the early Christians. Many a “church” and many “pastors” have prostituted God’s word to satisfy their own lusts for material things, selfish ambition, and physical pleasures. It is grotesque, if you ask me. It’s not even a matter of “they could have spent that money on the poor”, but it is a sad commentary about how they preach a gospel and then refuse to follow the teachings of Christ. They aren’t taking up a cross, no “denial of self”, no storing up treasures in Heaven. Sorry to “throw the baby out with the bath water”. I know that not all churches are like this….just far too many.
gp says:
—
i haven’t read the comments, so i hope i’m not regurgitating the same ideas that others have already shared.
i thought this was an excellent post. i appreciate your candor. on one hand it is hard to justify spinners on our ginormous SUVs…but on the other hand there isn’t anything inherently wrong with being materially blessed. as the Word shows us, God desired to bless His people, the nation of Israel, spiritually and materially. sadly, material blessing often led to idolatry and separation from God…for every Lot there was an Abraham…for every Ahab or Manassah there was a Solomon or David.
a hard issue that we must balance with the help of our mighty God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. thanks for helping us to not forget that we shouldn’t take our wealth for granted…and that the vast majority of people on this planet have nothing…and thanks for being real. real is good.
maranatha
Seth Ward says:
So far, I am still going to get the iphone when my plan runs out and if I can get it at a deal.
iPhone is sinful: IIII IIII IIII
iPhone isn’t sinful: IIII IIII IIII I
Nevermind, “iPhone is sinful” just took the lead, I looked down and my veriword was “children34.”
dangit.
Shaun Groves says:
Katherine said…
My husband has earned his living for many years from cell phone apps and accessories.
They may all seem “unnecessary” to you, but I assure you that those things enable us to have our lifestyle. That lifestyle includes a healthy dose of giving back to our communities in many ways, both in money and time. We consider ourselves tentmaker ministers in that we are able to support our lifestyle ministries without passing the hat. We earn our keep for 60 hours a week and then spend the rest of the time–time we’ve earned–toiling in the fields of the Lord.
Katherine, thanks for the comment. Before I address this statement (which is simlar to an earlier one you made about every iPhone bought helping out at least four people who make them and sell them), let me be very clear upfront: I DO NOT THINK CELL PHONES OR IPHONE ARE EVIL, SINFUL OR WRONG.
That said, just for the sake of discussion and to make one point with huge ramifications (I think)…
Your argument seems to go like this, if I’m reading you right: “Because I do good things with the money I make, the way I make my money should not be questioned (or the way I make money is “good” because I do good with the money earned from my work.)”
If that is the argument it has huge consequences for the way we all view “good” and “evil” doesn’t it? John Gotti (mob boss) did lots of good with his ill-gotten gains. Porn King Hugh Hefner is quite the philanthropist. And yea, those guys aren’t necessarily Christians so let’s use Osteen again. Joel Osteen does lot of good with money made from preaching a prosperity theology. Or maybe you don’t like Falwel. Falwel, for all his flaws (we all gott’em) promoted adoption, crisis pregnancy centers, etc with his cash.
Do the ends justify the means in these cases?
I’m not saying your family cell phone business is bad. What I’m saying is you can’t call it good just because you are an excellent steward of the money made from it. If you do, you have to apply that logic to everyone at all times. You have to call the mobster, the pimp, the drug dealer’s work “good” as well IF they do good with the money earned.
Make sense?
So, while I’M NOT CASTIGATING THOSE WHO BUY AN iPHONE OR MANUFACTURE THEM, I am saying it’s OK to discuss the ethics of our buying habits regardless of the “good” done by those who profit from these products. Fair?
Katherine Coble says:
I’m not saying your family cell phone business is bad. What I’m saying is you can’t call it good just because you are an excellent steward of the money made from it.
I’m not saying my family’s erstwhile cellphone business was bad OR good. I’m saying that it’s a logical fallacy to anthropomorphise inanimate objects and imbue them with moral characteristics. It’s a throwback to the legalism which says “Beer is Bad” and “Cross Pendants are Good.”
Scott says:
I think the purchase of an iphone or other similar luxury item is bad IF any one of the following are true…
The buyer goes into or stays in debt for the purchase of it. The buyer neglects their previous financial obligations to purchase it. The buyer is taking welfare for the basics in life. The buyer neglects “giving” to those less fortunate. The buyer has convinced themselves that they “need” it. The buyer would be prideful once they own it. The buyer would beat their child or neighbor child for accidentally dropping said iphone into a bucket of squishy mud. The buyer would use it in an evil attempt to take over the world through rockin’ tunes and telephony.
Cali Amy says:
I’m not sure a 19 dollar cell phone is really a better solution if it was made by people working with no labor laws and being underpaid.
In cases like this, it might be better to purchase a phone or clothes, etc. that are more expensive as long as they were made in favorable circumstances. They are many sides to this moral coin.
Scott says:
Cali Amy,
I think we agree in principle, but I would not use the phrase “no labor laws and being underpaid”. I have a problem with slave labor. We should not buy from countries that use slaves to bring their goods to market. However, “underpaid” is such a relative term that I wouldn’t use that. If the person is in a society where they have the freedom to work where and for whom they chose, the pay doesn’t really bother me. Usually, pay is commensurate with cost of living. Yeah, they may make $2 per day, but it only costs $1.25 to live per day. As for working conditions, those should be safe. Regardless of the presence or reach of labor laws, the place should be safe. I know that labor laws can help to guarantee a safe workplace, but they are not in themselves the goal. They are a tool to reach that goal. I don’t think we should buy stuff from countries who want to eliminate us or Israel, regardless of their labor laws and average wage!
Cali Amy says:
Scott,
You’re right, I was typing/thinking fast. When I said underpaid, I certainly meant underpaid for their region, and even for the work they do. And again, you’re right that labor laws don’t guarantee a good working environment.
In any case, it is sometimes more expensive to be careful about what you buy and where it’s coming from, then to simply try to live on a shoestring budget.
gp says:
—
not wanting to stoke the fires…i was just blessed by a thought today…
$600 = 1 8Gb iPhone
: or :
$600 = 20 months of support for a Gospel For Asia missionary (100% of donations go directly to the field of ministry)
just a thought.
Joe says:
Hey Shaun,
Thanks for stopping by my little neck of the woods. I agree with you 100% on this post. Here’s the link to where I got myself called all sorts of cool names over the iphone.
http://www.joemartino.name/metamorphic/2007/06/the-iphone-a-co.html