Shaun Groves
Gresham (age four) bounds up to me with a gigantic smile he can barely talk through. “I learned my bible verses!”
“Great!” I say, “Tell them to me.”
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America…and to the a Publix for which it stands, one nation under God with justice and livery for all.”
“What’s the other bible verse?” I ask, hoping it’s not the preamble to the Constitution.
“For God so loved the world that he gave up his only son so whoever believes in Him won’t perish but will have everlasting life. John 3:16”
“Good job!” I say, sparing him a lesson on allegiance. For now knowing the pledge is merely an exercise in memory power for him, not a division of his citizenship between the Kingdom and America. And knowing God loves the whole world will hopefully keep it from becoming anything more.
Grovesfan says:
While there’s certainly no reason to equate the pledge with scripture and it shouldn’t be done; pledging our allegiance to the United States doesn’t lesson our allegiance to the Kingdom IMHO. The Pledge doesn’t say ALL my allegiance, or that our ONLY allegiace can be to the US. If that were the case, I think Christian Americans would’ve tossed it out long ago. It’s not asking the reciter to make a choice between the two. Being supportive and submissive to our government is bibical too. Our country has given us much and having the freedom to voice opinion, to say or not say the pledge, etc. is just one of those freedoms. As long as as believers we are NOT placing our allegiance to our nation (or anything else for that matter) over that of the Kingdom of Heaven, then what’s the problem?
Beth
RevJeff says:
So he’s ready to preach his first sermon! Two (verses) points and a poem… I know it’s supposed to be trhee points but he’s four! Gotta start somewhere.
Shaun Groves says:
If that were the case, I think Christian Americans would’ve tossed it out long ago
A lot have.
Being supportive and submissive to our government is bibical too
Submissive with boundaries does not equal allegiance.
Define “supportive.” I might disagree with you on that one too.
Our country has given us much and having the freedom to voice opinion, to say or not say the pledge, etc. is just one of those freedoms.
Absolutely. I’m not saying, nor have I ever said, that I’m not grateful for the life I have here. Separate issue.
what’s the problem?
Someone besides me care to take a stab at this one? Come on. You’re out there reading along. I meet you all the time.
Cruz-Control says:
so Hauerwas-ian of you Shaun…
Awesome! I love it & completely agree!
In my understanding, to pledge one’s allegiance means to devote one’s life and resources to something. So, the danger in pledging one’s allegiance to America (not simply saying teh words, but actually meaning it) means that we are devoting our lives to the betterment, ideals, and nationhood of the United States of America. Since we can only serve one God who demands our ‘allegiance,’ it would seem that the two are in fact in conflict with one another.
Further, what happens when Nation is in disagreement with Kingdom? If the nation-state is in danger of military conquest. If we have truly pledged our allegiance to the nation-state, we are obligated to fight for its protection. However, this would violate the characteristics of disciples taught in Matthew’s Sermon on the Mount. While these ‘if’s are hypotheticals, they are very real hypotheticals for Christians in America.
In my opinion, there is little conflict with Rom. 13 (which says to be subject to authorities) and Rev. 13, which says to disobey Rome’s forced worship of the emperor. In one situation, the state’s commands do not violate those of Christ. In the other (Rev.), they do. There is no NT case against support of the state, as long as it does not force is people to violate the commands of Christ. But in either case, one is never called on to devote their absolute allegiance to the state.
To pledge allegiance to both Kingdom of God and Nation-State, and not be able to answer for either, is in fact not a true allegiance at all.
Grovesfan says:
Webster’s definition of allegiance is:
1. the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign.
2. loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like.
Websters’ definition of support(ive):
sup·port–verb (used with object)-
to bear or hold up (a load, mass, structure, part, etc.); serve as a foundation for.
to maintain (a person, family, establishment, institution, etc.) by supplying with things necessary to existence; provide for: to support a family.
to uphold (a person, cause, policy, etc.) by aid, countenance, one’s vote, etc.; back; second.
to maintain or advocate (a theory, principle, etc.).
Where in the pledge does it say anything about exclusivity? Our pledge DOES say UNDER GOD. Now while that doesn’t mean that all who say it or live it, agree on who God is. It was however written in a time when it was ASSUMED that Under God was speaking only of The ONE and ONLY True God.
For me anyway, that means that my allegience to the US lies insofaras it remains Under God. I would not consider doing something that was in conflict with what the scripture teaches, even if my government told me to do so.
I understand that many have decided not to pledge their allegiance to the US, etc. That’s fine. Many people doing something is the absolute poorest of reasons to do anything yourself. I’m not implying that’s the case here at all.
I just don’t feel that being allegient to my country deminishes my allegiance to my God. One doesn’t negate the other.
CruzControl:
“To pledge allegiance to both Kingdom of God and Nation-State, and not be able to answer for either, is in fact not a true allegiance at all.”
How is being allegient to both not answering for either? I’m not understanding this statement at all.
As for the rest of your post, I agree and stated much the same thing in my first post.
Shaun and I have discussed many similar topics here before and I’ve gotten many headaches as a result. I’ve also NEVER failed to learn, ALWAYS felt my opinion counted for something even if disagreed with; and even had my mind changed a time or two. I’m up for changing on this one too if someone can give me a compelling, scriptural reason.
Beth
Shaun Groves says:
For me anyway, that means that my allegience to the US lies insofaras it remains Under God.
I believe you because I know you to be a person who loves God deeply. BUT, history a contrary tale. “Under God” was added after the pledge had been by hundreds of thousands of Americans. For them the pledge was not to America only as long as it saw itself (can a nation have a collective homogeneous perspective?) as under God. The pledge was loyalty to a nation without terms or conditions.
Your assumption that “under God” refers to the “one true God” is just that – an assumption. A great one on your part. But it actually can’t mean only your God. The nature of American politics does not allow for one god. It cannot set up or restrict your religion in any way. The pledge, as written, not as said by you, is not an admission of or homage to Yaweh. It is, if anything, and this is a stretch I admit, an admission of idolatry by our government. Far fetched, yes. But do you get my logic at least?
As far as a definition for “allegiance” goes…
I agree with your definitions. And, I still say I’m not allegiant to America. If I would leave my wife for any reason, am I loyal to her? How about my job? If I’d sleep with my neighbor if she asked, am I a loyal husband? If I’d quit my job for a better paying one, am I loyal to my employer?
If the Republic asked me to fight or drafted me to fight would I do it? No. I’d rather be killed. If the Republic’s President asked me to buy more stuff so we’d defeat our enemies (something he did ask us to do after 9/11) would I do it? No. I’d rather be content with what I have and I’d rather feed and clothe my enemy. If the Republic set up a system of economics that rewarded the guy who worked long hours and looked out for himself first would I rejoice in that system? No. I’d rather consider others before myself, starting with my kids and wife who’d rather me be a present failure than an absent success. What if the Republic rewarded the greedy, funded the destructive, punished the innocent and elected the guilty? Would I “support” those actions and systems that make these actions possible? No. Otherwise I’d be a traitor to my kingdom.
I don’t believe a Christ follower can fully support all values and actions of the whole of the American government throughout history. Trying to has caused the Church to endorse silly things like Hiroshima. Has it not?
The best way I can summarize all this is to say that allegiance that is temporal or conditional is not allegiance at all – in my opinion. It is not loyalty. Any support or pledge I make to my country or anyone else other than God comes with conditions – for instance, saying I’m allegiant to my country UNLESS it goes against God. THis is not allegiance.
TRUE ALLEGIANCE, which I think few Americans truly pledge to their country, is impossible for a Christ follower. The kind of words-only half promise school kids make to America? Well, that’s another kind of problem isn’t it? Isn’t that a lie? WHen we say something we don’t truly mean? Thats what thats called isn’t it?
As Christ followers our yes is supposed to mean yes. Yes, I’ll fight for you. Yes, I’ll adopt your values. Yes, I’ll forsake everything for you always. That’s allegiance. Does anyone really mean that when they say this pledge? Does anyone really live that?
Shaun Groves says:
WHat I’ve decided to do about this is talk to my kids the next time it comes up about what a pledge is. A pledge is a promise. And a promise is a big deal. We always keep our promises – always. Then I’ll ask them what “allegiance” means and they won’t know. I’ll ask them if it’s a good idea to make a promise if you don’t understand what it means. Then when they ask me what it means I’ll tell them to ask their teacher since she’s the one who wants them to say it.
Becky helped me come up with that. She’s crafty.
steph says:
unrelated: i saw a photo of you with my friend lindsey today.
Herbert Sebastian Crotch says:
What?!
The Pledge of Allegiance is not in the Bible?!!
Ha!
Next you’ll be telling me the song “And I’m Proud to be an American” isn’t in the Psalms.
Say it isn’t so sir!
Cruz-Control says:
I would never claim to have an absolute scriptural backup for our dilemma here. If there was one, I believe the discussion here on a blog (and in Christianity as a whole) would have already been, for the most part, solved. All I have is an interpretation. But let me explain why I subscribe to it.
In the New Testament world (late 1st-2nd Century), allegiance to the state meant participation in emperor worship. There was no provision for Christians to pray ‘for’ the emperor (as opposed to praying ‘to’ the emperor) as there was for Jews. The problem here, of course, is that obedience to Rome required disobedience to God. Obedience and allegiance to Rome, meant that Christians violated 1st Commandment faithfulness.
But this is not the case in America. Christians are not forced to violate the commands of God – as least as it is now. While I may sound crazy, I believe that any devotion or allegiance to a nation-state has the potential to come between myself and God. To avoid any such predicament, I believe it is necessary to place an allegiance in one place alone. I believe that we can only have one citizenship, which I place in the Kingdom of Heaven (cf. Phil.). For me devotion to the Kingdom comes first; it is eternal. No other devotion can be allowed to come first.
I am not saying that I am absolutely right here, only that I believe that the potential of devotion to the nation-state usurping devotion to Christ is too great to risk. The Church should be more focused on its job of being the people of God. This is hindered by a devotion to a secular state. Further, the ethos of a secular state are different than the ethos of the Christian community. So, then where is the line to be drawn? I believe it should be at the point of allegiance, or devotion as it has been defined.
The folk in the NT really didn’t face this issue, as they were not a ruling majority. But though we are now, I do not see how or why we should have a different ethic with respect to our relationship with the state than the Early Church. They did what was required (cf. Luke 20.25, paid taxes), and that was all. They did not swear allegiance to Caesar. So, why should we?
My earlier statement about neither being a true allegiance referred to the war issue. If Christ commands us not to fight, which I believe he does, then to follow the commands of a nation-state to do so, would be a violation of our allegiance to Christ.
I am not saying that I am absolutely right and that my beliefs are ones all Christians should feel compelled or convicted to follow. I am also not saying that I am not thankful to live in America (despite what I may sound like in this post). I just simply think that devotion to a secular state has too great a potential to come between and before my devotion to the commands of Christ. Further, I am supporting an alien ethos from that which I hold, if I claim devotion to a secular nation-state. So, I place myself on one side only.
I hope that helps more than confuses… probably not…
Kyle says:
Ok, I’ve been pondering this whole issue for a while, and one thing struck when reading Cruz-Control’s last comment.
If Jesus’ teaching on loving your brother (including your enemy) means that we are not to engage them (physically) at any cost, then is that to say that all wars from then to now are unjustified and against God’s will?
I’ll just highlight the prime example—World War II and the Holocaust.
Grovesfan says:
For comments on your question Kyle, see Shaun’s series on “Just War.” It’s here in the shlog somewhere and very engaging to say the least.
Beth
Susanne says:
I just think it’s wonderful that he memorized John 3:16! I think my daughter is his age, and I realize that I haven’t read enough Scripture with her. We read kid’s version Bible stories, but it’s time that I helped her memorize some of God’s Word. These kids are able to do more than most adults give them credit for. Great job, Gresham!