Who said this?
#1 “My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized [his enemies] for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.”
Um, John Eldridge?
#2 “I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”
#3 “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
#4 “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”
Perverted system…hmmm…Osama?
#5 “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
Oh, a liberal…let’s see…Ginsburg?
#6 “The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press—in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past years.”
Where the heck was I in history class? I don’t remember any of this stuff.
I google them all and found the results quite interesting. Christianity Today’s “Out of Ur” blog is reviewing the Patriot Bible in the last few posts. The editor’s response was today and you can be sure that several of those quotes that were from American Founding Fathers are not going to be found in the Patriot’s Bible.
It’s almost like the Founding Fathers weren’t all modern Evangelicals or something. Crazy!
Out of curiosity, a friend and I went to see Jerry Falwell speak at a local Baptist church a few years ago. Falwell nearly risked the church’s tax-exempt status by all but endorsing a local Republican candidate from the pulpit and then launched into a “Founding Fathers” speech that was entertaining if not based in much in the way of historical fact. The phrase he kept repeating was, “And [so-and-so], a Virginian, said [such-and-such],” which proves that America is a Chrsitian nation.
Then Falwell got to the point of asking “Where is the separation of church and state in the Constitution?” and went on to a “It’s not there, nobody said it, so where did it come from?” rant. It was ALL I could do not to stand up and yell, “It was Thomas Jefferson – a Virginian – who wrote it in a letter to Connecticut Baptists.”
I’m pretty sure the Baptists would’ve kicked us out for that.
Thank YOU for the concert last night. We heard almost the exact same message at our Church this morning. I also just finished reading Crazy Love which kicked my butt and made me realize how little we give.
So, since we got home from Church, we have been going through everything we own– deciding what to sell. I want to live a life worthy of the Lord (Col 1). Your picture of the sweet girl in Ethiopia has broken my heart. It made me hate my excess. So… we will sell it. Please let us know if there is an immediate need (other than sponsorship) that we can meet with Compassion.
God bless! You are very gifted.
Stephanie
ps We have a condo in Florida (which we may have to sell now!
. If you ever want to take your family there, let us know.
They don’t discuss the conspiracy to oust Christianity as the norm in the US. They undermine it by their embracing of Secular Humanism, this is no surprise, and I disagree with the one commenter, Yes not all of the Founding Fathers were Christian, but many were more christian than “deist” as the liberal texts are proclaiming. Don’t buy the lies of the Liberal publishers.
Veretax, how’d you get internet access in your underground bunker? ; )
I’m kidding, but seriously, that sounded a little militia-ish. “conspiracy to oust Christianity as the norm in the U.S.?” Of course there’s an effort to undermind Christianity IN THE WORLD…that’s, um, kinda Satan’s job isn’t it?
But that doesn’t mean saying Jefferson sounds a lot like Richard Dawkins makes any of us part of a “conspiracy.” Does it?
And here’s something maybe you can find that I can’t. I seriously want to find it. I was looking for it when I stumbled onto these quotes. I’m looking for a quote from a “founding father” about Jesus. There’s a lot of “God/god” talk but no mention of God in the flesh: Jesus.
If I were to do my job – talking, blogging, singing to Christians – and NEVER mentioned Jesus, most folks would have an issue with me. Why not the same standard for the “founding fathers?”
Last thing, if you have evidence to support your belief that the facts are being skewed by “liberal” publications, could you share that? You’re saying most founders were Christians – people, who at the very least believe God is involved in human history and came to earth as man. I don’t claim to know. But I’d like to know what non-partisan sources or evidence you think supports that claim. I can’t find it.
It may sound militiaish, I don’t care if does, but we know from scripture that Satan is always trying to undermine God’s plan on earth, this is just one of the ways Satan does that. I’ve read a few things and in many ways I see public school as not being as separate from religion as some in the ACLU like to profess, it is instead propagating the religion of Humanism.
Here are some quotes for you:
Found these here: (http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm)
Thomas Jefferson:
“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
–The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
Ben Franklin: (this one’s interesting, because Ben seems to doubt Christ’s divinity)
Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution
“Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.”
–Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.
Samuel Adams:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution
“And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace.”
–As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.
James Madison
4th U.S. President
“Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”
–America’s Providential History, p. 93.
George Washington
1st U.S. President
“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.”
–The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President
“The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made ‘bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God’ (Isaiah 52:10).”
–Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
“The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!”
–The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.
Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
–The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.
“The Bible … is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.”
–Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.
As for the evidence It will take some time for me to round up all the sources I’ve read, concerning the ‘liberal’ conspiracy if you will. I’ll have to get back to you on that part. I’ve only recently begun digging into some things on my own on this, much of what I’ve seen and heard though I trust. (some of the sources are cited in those quotes though)
Veretax, the problem is not whether you can find quotes that support your ideas or not, quotes can be found on all sides. The real issue is that language and culture are not as simple as you seem to want to make it. There are very real differences in language and culture from the days of our founding fathers, and to place our own understanding of language, culture and Christianity on them is just not intellectually honest. I believe there were very real Christians that helped found our country. And there were some that were not Christians. I believe that was Shaun’s point, that not everything that gets passed down is truth.
If you want to read a good, well researched book by three of the world’s best scholars of early American Christianity about this subject try “The Search for Christian America”, Mark Noll, Nathan Hatch, and George Marsden. These three are all VERY well respected scholars and strong evangelicals. The basic idea of the book is that the story is more complicated than what we often are told.
I am not going to get into your charges against the public school system here. But I will say that the one way to insure that the public school loses good moral influence is by having all the Christians leave.
Wow, that quote from Samuel Adams is a good one. The rest don’t refute the accusation of Deism at all.
So we’re clear, deists can believe Jesus existed. They can believe in one true God. hey can also believe in the religion of Jesus. They can call themselves Christians. They can follow the ethical teachings of scripture.
What they would disagree with you and me on is 1)the divinity of Christ 2)the divine inspiration of scripture 3)God’s involvement in history and therefore you and I would (should) wonder if a deist is capable of believing in the atonement itself (!)
To dissect only one of your quotes (the first one) – one I’ve seen cited other paces as well – Jefferson called himself a Christian and a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. On the other hand he authored the Jefferson Bible which took out all miracles of Jesus, and all statements and allusions to the divinity of Jesus. How do we reconcile his statement with his actions? It’s not difficult for a deist to reconcile.
A deist can believe in and follow the principles taught and modeled by Jesus Christ while believing, at the same time, that his divinity was concocted and laid over and into the historical account by writers after Christ’s death. He can adhere to the ethical principles of the bible without accepting it as historical record of God becoming man.
But we evangelicals don’t think this way. We can’t fathom following Jesus’ teachings without believing he’s also God. So, I’m wondering then if “liberals” are changing history and undermining our faith or if we’re just having a (understandably) hard time understanding how a deist during the Enlightenment period thought about Christ.
Intellectually dishonest? I don’t even know where to begin with that kind of an assault on my character, so I won’t bother. People want to believe what they want to believe, and yes, not all of the founding fathers were true blood red Christians, some may have been Christian only because of a church affiliation. I wholy realize that. Shaun asked for some quotes, so I googled and found a couple.
I need to go back and start compiling some of these things into a word document, cause my memory of things just isn’t quite what it once was.
As for the Public School system and Christians withdrawing, My responsibility is to my God and to raise my children right, not to the government monopoly of education.
Shaun,
IN reference to Jefferson, from what I know of the man, I think that later in life he lost some of that fire he had earlier, I don’t recall the dates for the bible he made, but I’m in no way an expert on the man either.
I understand your point though, I find myself fighting this battle a lot in discussions elsewhere (not with you, I agree with what you are saying.) the other thing is time does not stand still and people can change over time so, I dunno, I’m not sure all of the founding fathers I’d agree with if I meant personally, but from what I’ve seen the Liberal agenda tries to cast the light that all if not most of them were the way you just described and I think that is just not correct.
(Another thing is many of them were Free Masons, so its hard to know how much of that society’s way of thinking influenced what they actually say and belive.)
You said you don’t think that’s correct. Why do you think that. Is it based on a source I could read?
I went through all this discussion with you really, honestly, to ask you this: Why does it matter so much that our founding fathers were Christian? There’s a lot of money made from and energy put into books and conferences, web sites, sermons, pamphlets, PACs, to get this point across. Let’s say tomorrow we find a letter renouncing Jesus as God and it’s signed why every one of the founders. So what? Same thing if that hypothetical document said Jesus WAS God. So what?
What does that matter now?
I have some ideas – I know why it matters to me – but why does it matter to you? Enough for you to read and debate and believe in a conspiracy theory.
Veretax,
Maybe I didn’t phrase it well, but I don’t think it is intellectually honest to pick and choose without looking into something fully. Yes there is a limit, we can never be complete scholars in every situation. But we also can’t just pick one phrase and say that it is the entire truth of the situation. Did you notice that the first quote was from Hitler? Obviously taken out of context it one might believe that he was a real Christian. That seems to be Shaun’s point. We need context. I hope you continue to seek out a balance of opinions, if all you want are sound bites, then the book I referenced will give you some of those as well. But it will put them in context and give so idea about the meaning of what they were saying.
Shaun,
To me? I’ve was saved while attending public schools, and even went to a Secular College, maybe its a defense mechanism as I have felt assailed for my beliefs since i first became a Christian. So from an early age you might say I’ve been fighting against what I see as wrong for a long time, and not EVERYONE in education thinks this way, I knew some quality teachers too, but I’ve realized that my little rural Schooling is not indicative of the whole. Does that answer your question?
Adam,
Truthfully, this is an area that I’m wanting to research more on my own, I’ve heard and read a lot, but never really collected into a concise grouping that I can reference. However, I disagree with you, to speak from the heart what I believe to be true, I disagree that it is intellectually dishonest. It would be intellectually dishonest for me to deny what I hold to be true.
Veretax, thanks for being so honest. That certainly answers the question of why you feel liberals are to blame, etc. But what I’m wondering is why it matters NOW whether the founding fathers were or weren’t Christian THEN?
Are you saying that if they were like you (Christians) then it makes your “assailing” even more unjust and wrong?
It certainly would be validating to know that these historical figures believed what we believe. No doubt.
Shaun,
Since those days I’ve read a lot of early american history a lot of books I can’t even name anymore as I don’t have easy access to those libraries, and I’ve been rather stunned with how little we’ve actually been taught. I’ve had History professors who were there to spout an agenda, not speak the truth or facts about things, but to answer your question.
Why do I find it important? Cause I think that to know the past of our Country is to know more about ourselves, and perhaps know how to avoid some of the speed bumps we have in our path.
Sure. We learn history because it repeats itself…or it can. I get that. But (I don’t think) you’ve haven’t answered the more specific question: Why does it matter if these guys were Christians or not?
Veretax, I am not asking you to believe something that you believe to be untrue. I am simply asking you to look into something and see if it matches your preconseptions. I can have some beliefs about bio-Chemistry, but because I have never studied it those beliefs may be completely untrue. I don’t know, I just haven’t looked into them because I am not all that interested in bio-chemistry. But if I became interested in bio-chemistry I would not enter the field with an assumption that all of my preconceived ideas must be true. It is fine to have preconseptions, and it may be that many, if not most, are true. But I would not challenge someone who has made it their life’s work to study bio-chemistry without some real research. That is why I am suggesting the book. These guys have made it their life’s work to understand American Christianity during the early american era and their conclusion is that it is a complicated picture that is usually not discussed well among current evangelicals. Read it and make your own conclusions. There probably are other books that have some different perspectives as well that would also be helpful.
Shaun,
For one thing Maybe its a legacy thing, maybe its pride? I’ve always had great admiration for the founding fathers and what they did. I’ve heard a lot of what is known as revisionist history, in some cases I understand why they revise history texts, but in others I don’t.
Adam,
I’ve heard the deist argument before, and it seems to me a completely inaccurate statement on the surface, at the very least its a cop out, because the people espousing it are not interested in the truth, except how they frame it. Just because someone has made something their life’s work, doesn’t mean their conclusions are true and not faulty though. I’m actually more interested in finding some texts about some of the founding fathers in particular, not just because of their religious views though, I think we could learn a lot if we just looked to them.
Ok, this is it from me because it seems like you are interested in confirming your own ideas not looking at truth.
But the book I am referencing not only is by three of the best scholars in existence, but they are all evangelicals, have all taught at evangelical schools and are respected both inside and outside the church and inside and outside the academy. If you are going to assume their positions are wrong before you even look at them, then yes I would call you intellectually dishonest. I am not asking you to agree with my conclusions, I am asking for you to look at something with enough openness to understand another side.
Adam,
Forgive me for being blunt, but I never meant to imply that this book you are suggesting is or is not wrong. A lot of what I was talking about wasn’t talking about a specific text unfortunately. I may still give it a look see, but at the moment with another trip to Charleston in the works (for workup for my wife’s OB doc and the future newborn,) Time is the issue at present. I want to know more about the history and who these people are, but finding time to look for books has been difficult to find (and frustrating to boot.) Sorry if that frustration spilled out into this conversation, I’ll write it down and try to see if I can find it online, as soon as I have some spare coin. Lately my reading has been limited to the scraps I find online or the Library system though.
So, if we could prove that every founder was an evangelical Christian by today’s American standards the upside for you is a legacy you can be more proud of. They’re great guys regardless, but that would make them even greater. OK. I understand that. But that’s not much of a payoff. Pretty weak upside to being right.
BUT, if you’re wrong. If they’re not Christians and we wrongly believe they are, there’s a huge downside as I see it. Some of our nation’s flaws – as judged by me – are ignored or even defended on the basis of this being a country founded by Christians just like us. Any attack on this country can be spun into an attack on Christianity and Christian ideals. Everything about America can be said to have divine roots – shoot, the Constitution gets treated like a page of scripture by some folks doesn’t it?
The logic goes that if those Christian guys thought this or that was good, and they’re smart, and they loved Jesus just like I’m trying to, then they must be right. Their decisions, because of some fabled connection with Jesus, are actually used to defend actions that some of us think are unbiblical.
Every war becomes a holy war. Unjust decisions, if traced back to a founder, can stand. It’s dangerous.
The founders can still be brilliant and admirable without being evangelicals. I think the evangelical insistence that these great men were just like us has everything to do with evangelical egotism, the belief that evangelism is the only source of greatness.
Adam,
Looks like Amazon has a copy for 13 something plus shipping, the description sounds interesting for other reasons, I’ll see about getting a copy. Thanks for your honesty and encouragement here, and you are right, I would feel more confident if I researched it a bit more.
Shaun,
You are correct, and I’ve recently quit saying that we are a “Christian Nation”, we may have a Christian heritage, but I really feel we’ve lost a lot of what little heritage we did have. A lot of the ideas I’ve seen in the cultural mainstream same to make the current state of affairs clear enough.
You are right though, researching more may inspire me more, or it may remove the Varnish that the years have waxed onto their reputations and reveal men just as weak and flawed as I am. I am of course aware of that. American History has always been something I’ve enjoyed, I just have not had a lot of time to research it as of yet.
I’m actually working through two books right now (or rather was before the recent hiccup in my schedule,) but this pursuit still comes about fifth on my list of priorities behind reading scripture which has really been a focus for me this year, and am trying to completely read through the bible by December’s end. I am reading other sources as well, one of them is written by the son of the former Chaplain of the Senate I believe, or was at least a party to it. Anyhow I thank you for your encouragement and wisdom here. I realize I do not know it all yet, and these are things not quite as fresh in my mind as they once were either.
To me, the belief that America was founded by evangelicals as a Christian nation simply serves to muddy the waters of morality. Can a nation ever really be “Christian”? A nation is a group of people/government who are concerned with a)self-preservation and b) national self-interest. Both of these things are anti-thetical to the Gospel, for Jesus called us to a)give our life away for others and b) seek the things which benefit others instead of ourselves. Can a nation love it’s enemies and survive? What nation ever blessed those who cursed them?
I do not cast blame on America for not being a “Christian” nation for I think it is an unrealistic and dangerous expectation. If history teaches us anything (ie. From Constantine to “Manifest Destiny”) it is that religion and power make for a deadly combination. Just my 2 cents.
BTW, I really enjoy reading your blog Shaun
Wow, spambots!!!
I was so glad to read this post all the way to the end…I was looking for some window treatments and know I’ve got an email inbox full of suggestions!
Seriously, I think this is an amazing conversation. Shaun you have boiled this issue down to its core and that is something that has evaded me for sometime. I have several friends who have taken this “bunker” mentality when it comes to the “liberal assualt on Christian America” *cue Lee Greenwood music*. What I get stuck on is why so many Christians go to such great lengths to argue this issue. It seems that the end result is that we place our faith in a worldly institution. Society is immoral because government is immoral so if the government is Christian then society will be Christian. Ironically, that is the primary reason many of the first settlers came to America. And when they came some of them barred other religions in their settlements (to preserve and protect their society) thus establishing this bunker mentality from the very begining. I’ve read the book of Revelation and I know who wins and I know there’s not much time left.
Veratex, I completely appreciate and honor your humility and willingness to continue this discussion. I believe this shows a great amount of maturity and security in who you are and who you are becoming.
Most of the signers of the dec of ind. were indeed christian (of course, only God can judge hearts, but God was definitely proclaimed in our land.)
http://churchvstate.blogspot.com/2007/10/signers-of-declaration-of-independence.html
Chief Justice John Marshall was appointed in 1801 by Thomas Jefferson, and said: “No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. The American population is entirely Christian; and with us Christianity and religion are identical. It would be strange indeed if, with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it and exhibit relations with it.”
The following also directly refers to Jesus Christ:
Congressional Thanksgiving Day Proclamation
Continental Congress
November 1, 1777
http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/34/Congressional_Thanksgiving_Day_Proclamation_1.html
I believe that the problem with forgetting (or denying) that Christian heritage of our country is that people will give CREDIT to people/man-made rules for the good that has happened in this imperfect country. I do believe that God blesses those who acknowledge and honor Him, and our forefathers indeed did so.
As for Jefferson, he despised organized religion, but claimed to be a disciple of Jesus’ teachings.
As for Hitler, satan himself uses his knowledge of scripture to do all sorts of harm.
The debate really is this: What role has God in government? Our founding fathers argue that He indeed MUST have a strong role in our government – otherwise (to paraphrase one of the fathers…don’t remember which) morality deficiency will lead to liberty deficiency will lead to the downfall of our nation.
The stripping of religious influence and religious freedoms from the public square has many people asking A) the historical nature of these laws and B) what the effect will be on the culture at large and religious people’s ability to function as citizens of good will in helping out the poor and needy.
Take Judge Roy Moore’s placement of the Ten Commandments in Florida and subsequent removal for instance. While I think Judge Moore showed a lack of respect for the rule of law that necessitated his removal, it is also clear that there would have been no controversy regarding the constitutionality of what he did 150 or even 60 years ago. What passes today for the constitutional separation of church and state is a relatively new legal invention, contradictory to the very letter by Thomas Jefferson which coined the term.
Why do people care if religion is removed from the public square, though? Because religion and morality are restraints on the excesses of popular culture. A public presence for religion helps counterbalance the influence of popular culture (e.g., Hollywood), which often is outright antagonistic to the moral good.
Also, when religion is removed from the public square, then often the rights of people or institutions to act according to their religious beliefs in the public square is lost. Today we are seeing a tremendous undermining of religious liberty in the ability of religious organizations to act according to their beliefs in the public square. There is pressure on religious hospitals and/or individuals to violate their beliefs in providing abortion and contraception services (even when those “contraceptives” are sometimes abortifacient in nature). There is pressure on adoption agencies to provide gay adoptions or else be shut down by state/local governments (as happened in Massachusetts) or to lose funding and government cooperation (as happened in San Francisico and was recently upheld by the 9th circuit court of appeals). Combine that with recent proposed laws which try and take control of how the finances of individual churches are governed and to make churches register as lobbyists when they try and protest these intrusions of government into the internal affairs of religious communities, and is it any wonder religious people feel under attack?
When Christians organizations are told that they have to sacrifice their beliefs to the whims of their relativistic dictators or else lose their right to love the poor and provide social services for them as a community, it makes people ask where these laws are coming from. It causes people to point out the mythical historical nature of laws that prohibit religion from a place the public square.
MB
MamasBoy, your comment (seemingly) has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Am I missing the relevance?
I didn’t ask “What difference does it make if ‘religion is removed from the public square’?” (And I wouldn’t ask that, since I don’t believe “religion” can be – only certain non-essential outward expressions of it.)
What I asked was “Why does it matter to you today if the founding fathers were or weren’t Christians?”
As for the rabbit trail (I think) you went down: Sometimes when we take up the cross we get splinters. I know you know that but yet it sounds like you’re trying to prevent a few necessary pricks (no pun intended). When we obey Christ we might not (probably will not) have the full support of non-Christians, especially financial support. And I don’t think we should expect it…or that it makes much theological or practical sense to get angry when we don’t get it.
If a hospital or doctor is being told they cannot accept government funding unless they do X, Y or Z, then they should stop accepting government funding. Easier said than done, sure, but action much more faithful to historical Christianity.
What happens in history when Christianity is the religion of Caesar or is financially backed by Caesar? (It winds up not all that Christian-y)
When in scripture can Jesus do as his Father wills without the possibility/probability of persecution as a result? (He was nailed to a cross for sedition right?)
What is the relationship between physical freedom/government support of Christian worships and church growth by conversion? Parallel or inverse? (The majority of Christians throughout history and around the world today are not “free”.)
In what way is an American not physically free to love God and love people? At most we might be mildly inconvenienced or be forced to change our methods or become more shrewd.
Also, not putting up the ten commandments in a courtroom? How non-essential to practicing Christianity can you get? I’ve never understood the outrage over this one. Didn’t Jesus solve this little dilemma for us already? Render under Caesar what is Caesars. It’s his room isn’t it? Let him decorate how he sees fit. ; )
Shaun,
It seems that you don’t think what I wrote had a bearing on the topic you proposed. If I may paraphrase, the topics you seemed to propose through a few quotes from the founding fathers were 1) Were the founding fathers Christian? and 2) Why does this matter to some people?
My line of reasoning was that 1) While some weren’t necessarily Christian yesterday’s deists were different from today’s deists and that 2) It matters to many people because the modern interpretation of separation of church and state is being used as cover to remove religion from its place in the public square. 3) Most critical, it matters when separation of church and state is used as cover to deprive religious individuals and groups the right to provide public services in ways that they deem consistent with their personal mores or the mores of their religious group.
While you acknowledged the threat to tax exempt status and public funding for those religious groups providing social services, much more is at stake. At stake is the very ability of religious groups to provide services to the public in accordance with their religious beliefs. The largest private facilitator of domestic adoptions in the state of Massachusetts wasn’t merely given the choice to a) provide adoptions to homosexual partners or b) turn down public funding. They were told to either provide adoptions to gays or cease facilitating any adoptions. They stopped providing adoption services. Sure it isn’t essential to the Christian faith to provide adoptions, but for those of us who believe that our Christian faith should result in helping the orphan, poor and hungry, it surely is a loss.
I won’t delve deeply into gay marriage and religious freedom because I don’t think it is an essential function of the church to perform civil marriage, and I believe much has been lost with the convolution of civil and Christian marriage. However, most practicing Christians disagree with that and have good points. Also, even the Pew research group has written about the present and future showdown between religious clergy/groups/individuals and homosexuals over gay marriage. http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1228/gay-marriage-free-exercise-religion While I think the chances are much less than even, it is a very real possibility that Christian clergy will not be allowed to perform civil marriages in another 20-30 years unless they perform marriages for gays.
Much more important to me is the area of health care and the rights of doctors and hospitals to provide health care in ways that they deem moral. There have been several pushes over the last few decades to force hospitals to provide abortions. While these have failed when it comes to surgical abortions, there has been tremendous progress made by pro-choice people in requiring pharmacies and hospitals to provide “medical care” that in some or even most cases results in chemical abortion.
Pharmacies are right now in some locales being required to staff their facilities with pharmacists willing to fill prescriptions for drugs that can provide chemical abortion. To be a pro-life pharamacist is becoming extremely difficult. Who wants to hire one, if they will just have to hire duplicate staff and monitor their pro-life/pro-choice status when figuring out staffing hours? To be a thoroughly pro-life company that owns a pharmacy is in some locales an impossibility. When I was in grad school I used to run AV equipment for a group providing continuing ed to doctors and medical students. I’ve heard pro-life doctors and (especially) pharmacists discuss their concern about their future livelihood and caution residency students that there is a real possibility they may have to change careers if they want to be true to their pro-life convictions. Also, the existence of pro-life ob-gyn’s and hospitals has been a big reason why planned parenthood and the pro-abortion lobby has not been able to pass draconian restrictions on ultra-sound machines in crisis pregnancy centers.
While none of these examples directly relates to the founding father being Christian, they do relate very directly to the motivation of many people in studying the topic and promoting these studies. This is because the modern idea of the separation of church and state is being used as cover to deprive religious people and groups of their duty to give public expression to their faith in the public square.
Regarding the 10 commandments example, I completely agree with you that the mere existence of the monument is completely “non-essential to practicing Christianity.” I only gave it as an example to show how ridiculously unhistorical the current interpretation of “separation of church and state” has become.
Honestly, I think there is much that you and I would agree on regarding the benefits and drawbacks of a distinctly Christian government. I think evangelicals have done themselves a huge disservice by turning extremists like Judge Moore into a celebrity. I had a foster daughter who attended a non-denom church where they actually brought him in as a speaker at their Sunday services, which was a shame. However, I do think that there is also a very real good that is being done by some of these groups in educating people on a more complete and accurate history of the legal concept of separation of church and state than they would hear in 99.999% of public school classrooms (or most universities for that matter).
I hope you will forgive the long comment. I tried to be more succinct and was not understood. It is my experience that blogging can be a poor forum for discussion of nuanced, complicated topics like this. Too often the common ground in what is agreed upon gets lost what is disagreed on and there is rarely enough room or time to develop a sufficient understanding of the ideas of others.
MB
Lots of words, MB, but still no connection to the question I asked.
Maybe I’m slow. Complete the sentence for me: It matters to me whether the founding fathers were Christians or not because __________________.
What I think you might be saying is: It matters to me because “the modern idea of the separation of church and state is being used as cover to deprive religious people and groups of their duty to give public expression to their faith in the public square.” <–Not a rational answer. It jumps from A to Q with none of the connections in between. It’s like saying “What my wife buys at the grocery store today matters to me because yesterday I had a grilled cheese sandwich.” Huh?
I don’t think your comments here have been written in an attempt to answer that question of mine. I think you’re ticked off about how separation of church and state stuff is being handled and so you used a post that mentions religion and politics to vent a little. That’s cool. Tangential, but still cool. Confusing, but again, cool. I was just hoping there was a connection, but there doesn’t have to be.
You’re obviously passionate about the subject, MB. What are you doing about it? What would you like to see the rest of us do about it?
Shaun,
The religion and public practice of religion by the founding fathers would matter to society if one could show by this that modern interpretations of separation of church and state which have the effect of limiting religious freedom are completely unfounded and unhistorical and thus unconstitutional. In other words, a proper understanding of history can help buttress the legal framework behind religious liberty in this country.
This only has the above effect if one also uses an originalist framework when interpreting the constitution. If one relies on the concept of a constantly evolving constitution where the past doesn’t matter if society no longer holds those aspirations (as interpreted by the supreme court, not by a constitutional amendment), then it doesn’t matter. Currently, there is older historical precedent and recent precedent in constitutional law regarding religious liberty. In the originalist framework, historical precedent and original meaning matter more, strengthening protections of religious liberty.
It also only matters for society at large, if one thinks that by teaching accurate history, one can help change the both the outcome and tenor of debates on religious freedom. Personally, while I think it can help in that regard, I don’t think an accurate understanding and application of the separation of church and state is a panacea to defusing attacks on religious freedom. It can certainly help, but it isn’t the key to preserving religious liberty at this point in our culture.
It also only matters if one thinks that the legal foundation for religious freedom in this country is contained in the first amendment, which has been misconstrued as a modern interpretation of the separation of church and state by some people. This also assumes that religious liberty matters. For most this is a given, so I won’t expand on the topic, but some may disagree.
My previous post attempted to show how the freedom of doctors, pharmacists and others to practice their jobs without violating their conscience is threatened in this country. I also attempted to state that religious freedom is tied (however directly or indirectly) to a proper historical understanding of the first amendment and the separation of church and state. In this comment, I have attempted to draw a clearer connection between how a proper historical understanding of the religion of the founding fathers effects how one understands the legal interpretations of the first amendment, and by extension the religious freedom of US citizens.
Lastly, I would like to make a suggestion. I think it would help the tenor of online discussions of people could refrain from calling statements made by those they are discussing things with irrational. Perhaps, I’m a bit anal on this point, but it doesn’t seem conducive to respectful discussion. I will refrain from answering the follow-on questions about what I am doing about it and what I think others should be doing about it, until it appears that it is understood why some people care about the religion of the founding fathers at all. I’ve spilt enough ink on that topic without muddying the waters by changing topics.
MB
Shaun,
I ran this thread by a couple people I know who had never heard a presentation by anybody like David Barton, etc. who goes around presenting the religious views of the founding fathers. One is a PhD at a national lab and the other is a retired CEO who teaches history and civics classes for fun in his retirement. Though neither agreed with the conclusions of most Christians for whom the founder’s faith is important (that we should return to the way the first amendment was interpreted in say 1800), they both saw the reasoning of these people as rational given their assumptions. Given that you are all bright people, I’m not quite sure why you can’t see that. Perhaps you read the Patriot Bible and assume that everybody is like that? I don’t know. The people I know who emphasize the faith of the founding fathers are pretty balanced compared to the views presented in the Patriot Bible, so I’m not sure what to make of it. Anyway, I would encourage you to not judge people as irrational so quickly. People often have reasonable ways of thinking of you can walk in their shoes long enough to understand their assumptions and background.
For the record, I’m equally appalled by both recent decisions on religious freedom and the ideas of the late 1700’s early 1800’s.
MB