Comments on: If The Music Business Dies http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/ Official site of Shaun Groves - musician, speaker, advocate for children living in poverty Thu, 24 May 2012 06:41:12 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Kevin Wicker http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41840 Kevin Wicker Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:21:05 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41840 Melissa: I'm not clear on your point, but I want to respond to your question / remark. I think what Shaun is referring to is 'Individuality". Taking into consideration the person of Christ (after all, He called Himself the 'Son of man', right?) -- He was an individual in every sense of the word. In fact, it got Him crucified. Did it get Him famous? You bet your cookies! As far as mystique, there's no greater mystery than the story of Christ! Mystique? I've yet to find a more mesmerizing character in history! It's that Mystique that has driven untold billions of souls to Him. It is human nature to be mesmerized by those we admire, but can't quite figure out. They have our attention, and what they say can have a profound impact on us. (Which explains the strange ways of many artists). There's nothing wrong with that. The disciples were no doubt attracted to Christ, but His 'mystery' was what "set the hook". (He taught them to be 'fishers of men' did He not?) All the while, He was as common as you and me. Having the ability to relate to others is the greatest attribute one can have. God didn't send Christ as a King. He sent Him as a lowly common. It was Christ's WORDS that made Him famous. It's all in the New Testament, read it for yourself. God knew what he was doing. That's why God put artists in the world. (Whether or not idolatry comes into the picture is strictly an individual matter -- depending on the individual's emotional stability.) As artists, we have an inner commission to relate what drives us spiritually -- the same effect that caused the Master to fulfill His Call. It's just something we cannot avoid. Jesus was a real guy, yet He was a master communicator. We all share the bond of the 'human condition'. Most folk don't know how to express it, but they know it when they hear it, and latch on to it. Artists have the gift of opening that door. That's why they should be given a platform. It's not all 'by the book' and cut and dry. Sadly, most musical artists struggle with being heard -- in a business that is brutal, biased, unforgiving, and greedy. The internet has opened the door to those artist who've fallen victim to the system, and has given them a chance to say, "HEY, this is what I want you to hear, this is what I feel, this is who I am, and I want to communicate it to you! -- if you'll just listen!" ('...for those with ears to hear...") If you think I am making a correlation of being an artist to the person of Christ, you are correct. Jesus was an artist. He showed all the signs in His personality. In essence, I think you might have misunderstood what Shaun was saying a bit. He summed it up quite eloquently: "Artists today have to – no, we get to – do what the rest of the industry and human race has been doing for eons: We get to be real human beings spending time with other real human beings. There’s no shortcut for that." Melissa:
I’m not clear on your point, but I want to respond to your question / remark.
I think what Shaun is referring to is ‘Individuality”. Taking into consideration the person of Christ (after all, He called Himself the ‘Son of man’, right?) — He was an individual in every sense of the word. In fact, it got Him crucified. Did it get Him famous? You bet your cookies!
As far as mystique, there’s no greater mystery than the story of Christ! Mystique? I’ve yet to find a more mesmerizing character in history! It’s that Mystique that has driven untold billions of souls to Him.

It is human nature to be mesmerized by those we admire, but can’t quite figure out. They have our attention, and what they say can have a profound impact on us. (Which explains the strange ways of many artists). There’s nothing wrong with that.

The disciples were no doubt attracted to Christ, but His ‘mystery’ was what “set the hook”. (He taught them to be ‘fishers of men’ did He not?)

All the while, He was as common as you and me. Having the ability to relate to others is the greatest attribute one can have.
God didn’t send Christ as a King. He sent Him as a lowly common. It was Christ’s WORDS that made Him famous. It’s all in the New Testament, read it for yourself. God knew what he was doing.

That’s why God put artists in the world. (Whether or not idolatry comes into the picture is strictly an individual matter — depending on the individual’s emotional stability.)
As artists, we have an inner commission to relate what drives us spiritually — the same effect that caused the Master to fulfill His Call. It’s just something we cannot avoid. Jesus was a real guy, yet He was a master communicator.

We all share the bond of the ‘human condition’. Most folk don’t know how to express it, but they know it when they hear it, and latch on to it. Artists have the gift of opening that door.
That’s why they should be given a platform. It’s not all ‘by the book’ and cut and dry.

Sadly, most musical artists struggle with being heard — in a business that is brutal, biased, unforgiving, and greedy. The internet has opened the door to those artist who’ve fallen victim to the system, and has given them a chance to say, “HEY, this is what I want you to hear, this is what I feel, this is who I am, and I want to communicate it to you! — if you’ll just listen!” (‘…for those with ears to hear…”)
If you think I am making a correlation of being an artist to the person of Christ, you are correct. Jesus was an artist. He showed all the signs in His personality.

In essence, I think you might have misunderstood what Shaun was saying a bit.
He summed it up quite eloquently: “Artists today have to – no, we get to – do what the rest of the industry and human race has been doing for eons: We get to be real human beings spending time with other real human beings. There’s no shortcut for that.”

]]> By: Kevin Wicker http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41837 Kevin Wicker Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:34:35 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41837 I think what you refer to as 'mystique' is another word for individuality -- which is something the music world is desperate for, especially in CCM. (So is it any wonder that the GMA is out of business?) This article is almost 'messianic' (for lack of a better term), because it is a real look into the truth of the matter. Being a CCM hopeful, you are in a awkward position, because you have to cater to the fundamental Christian church-going cheese-fest. You know: say the right thing, act out like you are a successful believer, do a couple of 'hallelujah brothers' and 'amen sisters' in hopes of it making a difference in the turnover at the record table in the back vestibule. A Christian artist has to be careful of not bringing offense or the 'unconventional' to most of the 'milk consuming' flock in fear of losing a gig. (I think you know what I'm saying). So you walk a fine line (which is why I checked out of the Gospel scene a long time ago. I couldn't jump those high hoops!) If you take the time to look into a Pastor's heart (at least one who isn't so interested in building an empire), you'll find a man who seeks out people who can truly 'minister', and not wow the crowd with promotion gimmicks and record success. Too many of those characters permeate the Gospel world, and they are shallow. I know, because I have been behind the scenes for a number of years. With that said however, what the 'Christian' world is starving for (and the rest of the world for that matter), is transparency and brutal honesty. Why not be the different cookie in the box, and say 'hey,I'm a struggling Christian!". Why not allow your music to reflect those struggles? (Remember Dallas Holm? How 'bout Larry Norman?) What the Christian world needs is someone who can cut through the cheese, and do it in a way that touches the heart -- without giving offense. The tides are turning in the music world and the church world. Let go of the old way of doing business. As a Christian artist, you should be more focused on your spiritual walk. Your songs will reflect it. And -- judging by the way the internet is changing the industry -- your audience depends on it... Peace. I think what you refer to as ‘mystique’ is another word for individuality — which is something the music world is desperate for, especially in CCM. (So is it any wonder that the GMA is out of business?)
This article is almost ‘messianic’ (for lack of a better term), because it is a real look into the truth of the matter.
Being a CCM hopeful, you are in a awkward position, because you have to cater to the fundamental Christian church-going cheese-fest. You know: say the right thing, act out like you are a successful believer, do a couple of ‘hallelujah brothers’ and ‘amen sisters’ in hopes of it making a difference in the turnover at the record table in the back vestibule. A Christian artist has to be careful of not bringing offense or the ‘unconventional’ to most of the ‘milk consuming’ flock in fear of losing a gig. (I think you know what I’m saying).
So you walk a fine line (which is why I checked out of the Gospel scene a long time ago. I couldn’t jump those high hoops!)
If you take the time to look into a Pastor’s heart (at least one who isn’t so interested in building an empire), you’ll find a man who seeks out people who can truly ‘minister’, and not wow the crowd with promotion gimmicks and record success. Too many of those characters permeate the Gospel world, and they are shallow. I know, because I have been behind the scenes for a number of years.

With that said however, what the ‘Christian’ world is starving for (and the rest of the world for that matter), is transparency and brutal honesty. Why not be the different cookie in the box, and say ‘hey,I’m a struggling Christian!”. Why not allow your music to reflect those struggles?
(Remember Dallas Holm? How ’bout Larry Norman?)
What the Christian world needs is someone who can cut through the cheese, and do it in a way that touches the heart — without giving offense.

The tides are turning in the music world and the church world. Let go of the old way of doing business. As a Christian artist, you should be more focused on your spiritual walk. Your songs will reflect it. And — judging by the way the internet is changing the industry — your audience depends on it…
Peace.

]]> By: Kevin Wicker http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41836 Kevin Wicker Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:02:47 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41836 David: Your brutal honesty is a wonderful attribute, and can win you fans. I suggest you trim off the excess angst by doing some honest self evaluation and free yourself from your fears and frustrations. You are a typical artist. I find the most brilliant artists struggle with their personalities. Don't let that stop you. The real world out there is looking for tangibility and honesty -- real world life situations and honest art. I would encourage you to express yourself completely, utilizing your own on-line domain. Don't be afraid to express all of your creative urges. It's real. It connects. It's not some thing the public is used to: something contrived in an office and promoted by sponsors. You have talent, or you wouldn't have the desire to express it. develop it and expose it. Take my advice, and watch what happens. Peace. David:
Your brutal honesty is a wonderful attribute, and can win you fans. I suggest you trim off the excess angst by doing some honest self evaluation and free yourself from your fears and frustrations. You are a typical artist. I find the most brilliant artists struggle with their personalities. Don’t let that stop you.
The real world out there is looking for tangibility and honesty — real world life situations and honest art.
I would encourage you to express yourself completely, utilizing your own on-line domain. Don’t be afraid to express all of your creative urges. It’s real. It connects. It’s not some thing the public is used to: something contrived in an office and promoted by sponsors.
You have talent, or you wouldn’t have the desire to express it. develop it and expose it. Take my advice, and watch what happens.
Peace.

]]> By: Kevin Wicker http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41835 Kevin Wicker Sat, 03 Dec 2011 12:52:36 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41835 Charles: Best learn to ride the tide as it is. The days of old school artist / buying public relations are swiftly becoming extinct. I would suggest -- as I am putting into practice -- to give the fans a chance to make a contribution; sort of a 'love offering' (by way of a PayPal donate button affixed alongside your product). There's no way of establishing any type of bottom line profit from it. That's where you may have to come up with something else you provide to your audience that can bring in a more substantial income. A specialized service or another product, for example. Record sales are very shaky nowadays. Be willing to let it go for free. Free music is a great way to increase your audience...especially if it's good music. Peace. Charles:
Best learn to ride the tide as it is. The days of old school artist / buying public relations are swiftly becoming extinct.
I would suggest — as I am putting into practice — to give the fans a chance to make a contribution; sort of a ‘love offering’ (by way of a PayPal donate button affixed alongside your product). There’s no way of establishing any type of bottom line profit from it. That’s where you may have to come up with something else you provide to your audience that can bring in a more substantial income. A specialized service or another product, for example.
Record sales are very shaky nowadays. Be willing to let it go for free. Free music is a great way to increase your audience…especially if it’s good music.
Peace.

]]> By: Kevin Wicker http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41834 Kevin Wicker Sat, 03 Dec 2011 12:36:28 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-41834 Very insightful. Being a Nashville music professional for the past 21 years, I understand firsthand the value of having the right relationships. Here, talent means little. Some have said in times past it was all about "being at the right place at the right time" -- which is half truth, at best. The bottom line of getting any recognition here has ALWAYS been WHO knows you and HOW they know you, and how can they can benefit from you. Top to bottom, that's the established modus operendi of the Nashville pecking order. And it is very easy to get lost in the shuffle. Very easy. Again, talent means little. One has to be a ruthless promoter. (Garth Brooks a great example, for those of you who know his 'behind the scenes' before his initial big break). There's a popular trend in Nashville among the many hopeful writers and artists nowadays: 'networking'. And you have a few industry 'veterans' making money from them -- with the premise that "it's all who you know", and "help enough people get what they want and you'll get what you want'. Poppycock. While it is vital relationships are the bedrock to success in ANY venture, most of the Nashville scene hasn't caught on to the real world. (Although the record companies are scrambling to get to the internet -- by order of the big boys in NYC). it's still the 'good-ol-boy' network -- which worked for a long time here, but is slowly dying off, and many aren't ready for the coming revolution. I said all that to say this: how refreshing and encouraging it is to know that the internet -- which has completely revolutionized the record biz -- gives a new meaning to the word 'relationship'. An artist's worth is determined by his/her genuine talent and connection with the audience. It gives those who have been ignored by the Nashville meat wheel a chance to be heard and taken seriously (which is the single most difficult thing to do here in the 'Music City'... *cough*) Awesome article bro. Best of luck to you. Very insightful. Being a Nashville music professional for the past 21 years, I understand firsthand the value of having the right relationships.
Here, talent means little. Some have said in times past it was all about “being at the right place at the right time” — which is half truth, at best.
The bottom line of getting any recognition here has ALWAYS been WHO knows you and HOW they know you, and how can they can benefit from you. Top to bottom, that’s the established modus operendi of the Nashville pecking order.
And it is very easy to get lost in the shuffle. Very easy. Again, talent means little. One has to be a ruthless promoter. (Garth Brooks a great example, for those of you who know his ‘behind the scenes’ before his initial big break).

There’s a popular trend in Nashville among the many hopeful writers and artists nowadays: ‘networking’. And you have a few industry ‘veterans’ making money from them — with the premise that “it’s all who you know”, and “help enough people get what they want and you’ll get what you want’. Poppycock.
While it is vital relationships are the bedrock to success in ANY venture, most of the Nashville scene hasn’t caught on to the real world. (Although the record companies are scrambling to get to the internet — by order of the big boys in NYC). it’s still the ‘good-ol-boy’ network — which worked for a long time here, but is slowly dying off, and many aren’t ready for the coming revolution.

I said all that to say this: how refreshing and encouraging it is to know that the internet — which has completely revolutionized the record biz — gives a new meaning to the word ‘relationship’. An artist’s worth is determined by his/her genuine talent and connection with the audience. It gives those who have been ignored by the Nashville meat wheel a chance to be heard and taken seriously (which is the single most difficult thing to do here in the ‘Music City’… *cough*)

Awesome article bro. Best of luck to you.

]]> By: Owen Kelly http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1663 Owen Kelly Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:04:58 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1663 <p>You’ve totally hit the nail on the head here. Artist-Fan relationships are so much more important that ever before. </p> <p> I also think you can maintain an air of mystique and have a good artist-fan relationship. Just regulate what your prepared to make public. </p> You’ve totally hit the nail on the head here. Artist-Fan relationships are so much more important that ever before.

I also think you can maintain an air of mystique and have a good artist-fan relationship. Just regulate what your prepared to make public.

]]> By: Alan Howe http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1661 Alan Howe Sat, 30 May 2009 17:53:12 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1661 <p>Amen, amen <br /> as someone who has just entered this crazy Biz of Music with Long time artist Barry Blaze / Code of Ethics . <br /> all I can say is you are spot on. <br /> myself, Barry, and others some who have posted , agree it is about change , there is no more Fakeness (there never should of been). <br /> its about being real, real people connecting with real people ....and people are flawed ..artist , fans all of us. its time we stop pretending were not. </p> <p> thank you for your honesty Shaun. </p> Amen, amen

as someone who has just entered this crazy Biz of Music with Long time artist Barry Blaze / Code of Ethics .

all I can say is you are spot on.

myself, Barry, and others some who have posted , agree it is about change , there is no more Fakeness (there never should of been).

its about being real, real people connecting with real people ….and people are flawed ..artist , fans all of us. its time we stop pretending were not.

thank you for your honesty Shaun.

]]> By: rosedale http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1660 rosedale Fri, 29 May 2009 17:08:28 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1660 <p>Wonderful thoughts. I agree almost completely. What Technology changes is not the what, but the who. It gives power to the artist himself. It takes out the middle man and lowers the entry level. This means that there is more out there, but it also means that people aren’t needlessly overlooked because they didn’t have that “look” or “sound.” </p> <p> What you are saying is a slightly modified version that Mike Masnick talks about at Techdirt.com. He has been studying Trent Resnor for a while now (<a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090201/1408273588.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090201/1408273588.shtml</a>) He talks about this formula: Connect With Fans (CwF) + Reason To Buy (RtB) = The Business Model ($$$$).  He is absolutely right, and you are saying the same thing. </p> <p> What has changed is the immediacy of music. People come and go at a very fast pace, like you said. They connect through various means (and radio is becoming less and less important as an avenue), facebook, twitter, myspace, pandora. And that is just to name a few. They want to connect with the artist and now they can. They love the music so much that they have to share with their friends so they all can share in the joy. </p> <p> It is exciting to see how Technology plays a part, but you are right that it isn’t the only thing. If a band creates a Twitter, but does nothing with it what is the point? Or if their myspace only serves the purpose of show off tour dates, but never interacts than it will be of little use. I know there is a bright future ahead and it can easily happen with or without the labels. Either way whether the “music biz,” as in the labels, dies or not music will continue to be made and I am pretty sure money will follow. </p> Wonderful thoughts. I agree almost completely. What Technology changes is not the what, but the who. It gives power to the artist himself. It takes out the middle man and lowers the entry level. This means that there is more out there, but it also means that people aren’t needlessly overlooked because they didn’t have that “look” or “sound.”

What you are saying is a slightly modified version that Mike Masnick talks about at Techdirt.com. He has been studying Trent Resnor for a while now (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090201/1408273588.shtml) He talks about this formula: Connect With Fans (CwF) + Reason To Buy (RtB) = The Business Model ($$$$).  He is absolutely right, and you are saying the same thing.

What has changed is the immediacy of music. People come and go at a very fast pace, like you said. They connect through various means (and radio is becoming less and less important as an avenue), facebook, twitter, myspace, pandora. And that is just to name a few. They want to connect with the artist and now they can. They love the music so much that they have to share with their friends so they all can share in the joy.

It is exciting to see how Technology plays a part, but you are right that it isn’t the only thing. If a band creates a Twitter, but does nothing with it what is the point? Or if their myspace only serves the purpose of show off tour dates, but never interacts than it will be of little use. I know there is a bright future ahead and it can easily happen with or without the labels. Either way whether the “music biz,” as in the labels, dies or not music will continue to be made and I am pretty sure money will follow.

]]> By: Darren Tyler http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1659 Darren Tyler Fri, 29 May 2009 12:57:05 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1659 <p>Great stuff Shaun.  very well articulated.  very accurate.  the future is scary, but it doesn’t have to be.  the curtains are drawn, and perhaps that’s the way God has wanted it all along. </p> <p> mixing commerce and the gospel is a potentially toxic combination. adding fame to the equation and it can be downright deadly. </p> Great stuff Shaun.  very well articulated.  very accurate.  the future is scary, but it doesn’t have to be.  the curtains are drawn, and perhaps that’s the way God has wanted it all along.

mixing commerce and the gospel is a potentially toxic combination. adding fame to the equation and it can be downright deadly.

]]> By: Charles Brady http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1658 Charles Brady Wed, 27 May 2009 23:45:43 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2009/05/if-the-music-business-dies/#comment-1658 <p>This is one of the best reads I have seen on the subject of our music world as it comes crashing down around us… </p> <p> I’m still trying to figure out how personally engaging the fans is going to help disengage them from their wallets… so far I haven’t seen that happening. </p> <p> Our company has several internet based projects that do very well as long as you stick to very cheap or free. How to monetize the transition to the digital age for music is one of the toughest things yet to solve. It takes time to convince folks to begin to pay for things they are accustomed to getting for free.. but it does happen..  My Grandparents would never have paid to watch TV.. my parents can’t live without their cable packages… I’d never pay to listen to radio.. my son on the other hand… only XM for him! I just hope we can all hold out until the transition is complete.. Me.. I’d love to see big LP’s again..LOL!! </p> This is one of the best reads I have seen on the subject of our music world as it comes crashing down around us…

I’m still trying to figure out how personally engaging the fans is going to help disengage them from their wallets… so far I haven’t seen that happening.

Our company has several internet based projects that do very well as long as you stick to very cheap or free. How to monetize the transition to the digital age for music is one of the toughest things yet to solve. It takes time to convince folks to begin to pay for things they are accustomed to getting for free.. but it does happen..  My Grandparents would never have paid to watch TV.. my parents can’t live without their cable packages… I’d never pay to listen to radio.. my son on the other hand… only XM for him! I just hope we can all hold out until the transition is complete.. Me.. I’d love to see big LP’s again..LOL!!

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