Comments on: Going Giftless Part 1 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/ Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:10:44 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Amarande http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-20725 Amarande Tue, 23 Mar 2010 01:05:00 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-20725 How are you. The knowledge of the world is only to be acquired in the world, and not in a closet. Help me! I find sites on the topic: Buy stocks for cheap. I found only this - <a href="http://www.comune.farageradadda.bg.it/Members/CheapStocks/very-cheap-stocks" rel="nofollow">very cheap stocks</a>. Cheap stocks, after primer, much, a 20th nose of market was viable from a specialized rifle, varying the nebelwerfer korean to use leverage. These coals have based for most of the direct trouble, although their parties have resulted and will invest to become almost, basis of destruction in none is an artillery, cheap stocks. Best regards :mad:, Amarande from Kiribati. How are you. The knowledge of the world is only to be acquired in the world, and not in a closet. Help me! I find sites on the topic: Buy stocks for cheap. I found only this – very cheap stocks. Cheap stocks, after primer, much, a 20th nose of market was viable from a specialized rifle, varying the nebelwerfer korean to use leverage. These coals have based for most of the direct trouble, although their parties have resulted and will invest to become almost, basis of destruction in none is an artillery, cheap stocks. Best regards :mad: , Amarande from Kiribati.

]]> By: Shaun Groves http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3498 Shaun Groves Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:49:02 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3498 <p>Agreed, Christa.  If I had this post to wrote over again I would have said instead that the symbolism is possible and even probable but that I don’t believe it’s likely the Magi realized the symbolism or knew Jesus would be king/prophet/sacrifice as they brought these gifts. </p> <p> I took Perspectives several years ago and it blew my mind and changed my living too and continues to.  Hope the same is true for you.  Thanks for chiming in...even if you are a little late ; ) </p> Agreed, Christa.  If I had this post to wrote over again I would have said instead that the symbolism is possible and even probable but that I don’t believe it’s likely the Magi realized the symbolism or knew Jesus would be king/prophet/sacrifice as they brought these gifts.

I took Perspectives several years ago and it blew my mind and changed my living too and continues to.  Hope the same is true for you.  Thanks for chiming in…even if you are a little late ; )

]]> By: Christa http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3497 Christa Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:44:49 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3497 <p>I am jumping in a little late to this whole discussion.  I thank you for taking the time to write it and challenge cultural norms.  I took a class called Perspectives on the World Christian Movement this year and have had been awakened to the idea that we view Christianity through the lense of our culture and not neccessarily from a true biblical perspective.  Christmas is a great example and we will really have to pray about what our Christmas will look like in the future, this year it will remain as is, because I haven’t been thinking about it for long enough to know what the Lord is leading our family to do.  </p> <p> One thing I wanted to comment on is the comment you made about the Magi bringing the gifts and that you were not buying the symbolism.  I don’t know what the Magi thought as they came, but they do seem to come for the purpose of worship and whether they intentionally and symbolically brought the gifts or not, I do believe that we worship a Soveriegn God who is often in the details and so it is very possible the symbolism does have meaning, whether the Magi realized it or not.  Sometimes I think we are quick to remove God’s Soveriegnty from circumstances.  Just my thoughts… </p> I am jumping in a little late to this whole discussion.  I thank you for taking the time to write it and challenge cultural norms.  I took a class called Perspectives on the World Christian Movement this year and have had been awakened to the idea that we view Christianity through the lense of our culture and not neccessarily from a true biblical perspective.  Christmas is a great example and we will really have to pray about what our Christmas will look like in the future, this year it will remain as is, because I haven’t been thinking about it for long enough to know what the Lord is leading our family to do. 

One thing I wanted to comment on is the comment you made about the Magi bringing the gifts and that you were not buying the symbolism.  I don’t know what the Magi thought as they came, but they do seem to come for the purpose of worship and whether they intentionally and symbolically brought the gifts or not, I do believe that we worship a Soveriegn God who is often in the details and so it is very possible the symbolism does have meaning, whether the Magi realized it or not.  Sometimes I think we are quick to remove God’s Soveriegnty from circumstances.  Just my thoughts…

]]> By: Alison http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3496 Alison Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:20:09 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3496 <p>I still don’t know what to think of the whole gift giving thing. Some of our family treats Christmas as an excuse to lavish gifts on those they haven’t paid much attention to all year. Almost like a peace offering. Not our idea of an offering. Some of the family sets a limit on the gift amount so we all have something small and fun to open, while really recognizing that we are spending time together (many days) and expressing our love to one another celebrating the love of Christ in our lives. Part of what I believe God wants in our lives is just having fun and being generous with one another. I also began including everyone in the opportunity to give to another less fortunate family each year. I’m hoping that the gift tradition moves entirely in that direction in the coming years as our kids get older. I serve throughout the year as an offering to God, so that when Christmas rolls around it doesn’t feel like my one big opportunity to celebrate all that Jesus represents in my life. Maybe these thoughts will help someone else? </p> I still don’t know what to think of the whole gift giving thing. Some of our family treats Christmas as an excuse to lavish gifts on those they haven’t paid much attention to all year. Almost like a peace offering. Not our idea of an offering. Some of the family sets a limit on the gift amount so we all have something small and fun to open, while really recognizing that we are spending time together (many days) and expressing our love to one another celebrating the love of Christ in our lives. Part of what I believe God wants in our lives is just having fun and being generous with one another. I also began including everyone in the opportunity to give to another less fortunate family each year. I’m hoping that the gift tradition moves entirely in that direction in the coming years as our kids get older. I serve throughout the year as an offering to God, so that when Christmas rolls around it doesn’t feel like my one big opportunity to celebrate all that Jesus represents in my life. Maybe these thoughts will help someone else?

]]> By: Dave Haupert http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3495 Dave Haupert Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:37:56 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3495 <p>Question for you- if Christ were here now, would you bring Him a gift?  I know I would.  </p> <p> So we speak of Christ being in us and other believers, so in that sense, giving a gift to another person celebrating Christ’s birth is your only way of giving to Christ.  </p> <p> What we do unto others we do unto Him.  </p> <p> That being said, WWJW (What would Jesus want?) should be the focus of the rest of this conversation.  I know they call the iPhone the Jesusphone in some parts, and while I love mine and make my living off writing software for it, I can’t say with any certainty that would be the pefect gift for Him <img src="http://www.shaungroves.com/images/smileys/wink.gif" width="19" height="19" alt="wink" style="border:0;" /> </p> Question for you- if Christ were here now, would you bring Him a gift?  I know I would. 

So we speak of Christ being in us and other believers, so in that sense, giving a gift to another person celebrating Christ’s birth is your only way of giving to Christ. 

What we do unto others we do unto Him. 

That being said, WWJW (What would Jesus want?) should be the focus of the rest of this conversation.  I know they call the iPhone the Jesusphone in some parts, and while I love mine and make my living off writing software for it, I can’t say with any certainty that would be the pefect gift for Him wink

]]> By: Cali Amy http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3494 Cali Amy Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:30:14 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3494 <p>I guess I never thought I had Biblical support for giving gifts, so this part, while interesting, doesn’t apply to why I give gifts at Christmas. <img src="http://www.shaungroves.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" width="19" height="19" alt="smile" style="border:0;" /> </p> I guess I never thought I had Biblical support for giving gifts, so this part, while interesting, doesn’t apply to why I give gifts at Christmas. smile

]]> By: MamasBoy http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3493 MamasBoy Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:35:23 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3493 <p>"Sorry to disappoint.” </p> <p> I’m not sure why you would think I’m disappointed. </p> <p> MB </p> “Sorry to disappoint.”

I’m not sure why you would think I’m disappointed.

MB

]]> By: MamasBoy http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3492 MamasBoy Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:22:40 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3492 <p>Shaun, </p> <p> I’m sorry if it seemed like I thought you said it was an either/or choice.  I didn’t mean to attribute that to you, but looking back I can see how somebody might think I did.  This is mostly because I did have the impression that you don’t buy the traditional interpretation of the symbolism behind the wise men’s gifts.  I got that impression from this statement you made. </p> <p> “Some folks put a lot of symbolism into these gifts nowadays.  Gold is theorized to be a gift that acknowledged Jesus as king.  Frankincense was used in temple worship so some say it represents Jesus’ priestly role, mediating between God and man.  And myrrh was used in embalming and is said to have foreshadowed his death.  But I’m not buying it.” </p> <p> I’m sorry for not being more clear about what I attributed to you and what I didn’t.  I also apologize if I misinterpreted or misrepresented what you wrote.  That was not my intent.  I was mostly trying to make a case for the traditional understanding of the symbolism behind the wise men’s gifts, since it seems to me to be a very good one. </p> <p> MB </p> Shaun,

I’m sorry if it seemed like I thought you said it was an either/or choice.  I didn’t mean to attribute that to you, but looking back I can see how somebody might think I did.  This is mostly because I did have the impression that you don’t buy the traditional interpretation of the symbolism behind the wise men’s gifts.  I got that impression from this statement you made.

“Some folks put a lot of symbolism into these gifts nowadays.  Gold is theorized to be a gift that acknowledged Jesus as king.  Frankincense was used in temple worship so some say it represents Jesus’ priestly role, mediating between God and man.  And myrrh was used in embalming and is said to have foreshadowed his death.  But I’m not buying it.”

I’m sorry for not being more clear about what I attributed to you and what I didn’t.  I also apologize if I misinterpreted or misrepresented what you wrote.  That was not my intent.  I was mostly trying to make a case for the traditional understanding of the symbolism behind the wise men’s gifts, since it seems to me to be a very good one.

MB

]]> By: Shaun Groves http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3491 Shaun Groves Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:59:20 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3491 <p>Never said it was either/or MB.  Just said I don’t buy it and why.  Sorry to disappoint. </p> Never said it was either/or MB.  Just said I don’t buy it and why.  Sorry to disappoint.

]]> By: MamasBoy http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3490 MamasBoy Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:34:38 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2008/12/going-giftless-part-1/#comment-3490 <p>Shaun, </p> <p> I’m a bit surprised you would not buy into the symbolism of the gifts.  It seems just as valid an interpretation as yours based on word etymologies, and I would find it odd for Scripture to be so specific about the gifts of the magi if they weren’t symbolic and important.  The naming of the gifts stands out, especially given the nebulous nature of the rest of the magi account.  The symbolic interpretation also fits well with the common uses of those strange gifts and the context and big picture of who Jesus was and the stated puropose of the magi’s visit, namely to offer worship.  The interpretation also has very ancient roots, going back to the 100’s at least. </p> <p> As Irenæus wrote in Against Heresies: Book III <br /> “But Matthew says that the Magi, coming from the east, exclaimed “For we have seen His star in the east, and are come to worship Him;” and that, having been led by the star into the house of Jacob to Emmanuel, they showed, by these gifts which they offered, who it was that was worshipped; myrrh, because it was He who should die and be buried for the mortal human race; gold, because He was a King, “of whose kingdom is no end;” and frankincense, because He was God, who also “was made known in Judea,” and was “declared to those who sought Him not.”” </p> <p> The fact that people interpreted the gift symbolically in the 100’s doesn’t make the interpretation right, but it certainly lends credibility to it.  It is not unlikely that such an interpretation was held by the apostles themselves, since they certainly didn’t put down all they could have in the gospels and the vast majority of their teaching was oral (most of them didn’t write a lick of scripture). </p> <p> Scripture has many meanings on many levels.  Personally, I like both your interpretation and the traditional one and certainly don’t view it as an either/or choice.  </p> <p> MB </p> Shaun,

I’m a bit surprised you would not buy into the symbolism of the gifts.  It seems just as valid an interpretation as yours based on word etymologies, and I would find it odd for Scripture to be so specific about the gifts of the magi if they weren’t symbolic and important.  The naming of the gifts stands out, especially given the nebulous nature of the rest of the magi account.  The symbolic interpretation also fits well with the common uses of those strange gifts and the context and big picture of who Jesus was and the stated puropose of the magi’s visit, namely to offer worship.  The interpretation also has very ancient roots, going back to the 100’s at least.

As Irenæus wrote in Against Heresies: Book III

“But Matthew says that the Magi, coming from the east, exclaimed “For we have seen His star in the east, and are come to worship Him;” and that, having been led by the star into the house of Jacob to Emmanuel, they showed, by these gifts which they offered, who it was that was worshipped; myrrh, because it was He who should die and be buried for the mortal human race; gold, because He was a King, “of whose kingdom is no end;” and frankincense, because He was God, who also “was made known in Judea,” and was “declared to those who sought Him not.””

The fact that people interpreted the gift symbolically in the 100’s doesn’t make the interpretation right, but it certainly lends credibility to it.  It is not unlikely that such an interpretation was held by the apostles themselves, since they certainly didn’t put down all they could have in the gospels and the vast majority of their teaching was oral (most of them didn’t write a lick of scripture).

Scripture has many meanings on many levels.  Personally, I like both your interpretation and the traditional one and certainly don’t view it as an either/or choice. 

MB

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