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	<title>Comments on: Help The Church.  Vote For A Madman.</title>
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	<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/</link>
	<description>Official site of Shaun Groves - musician, speaker, advocate for children living in poverty</description>
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		<title>By: MamasBoy</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4009</link>
		<dc:creator>MamasBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4009</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;So you’re not personally doing anything about an issue you obviously care a great deal about other than giving your money to your church. Why not cut out the middle man (and his salary) and give directly to the crisis pregnancy center?&#160; Why not ask them if they could use your help with anything a few hours a week (or even month)?&#160; Why not adopt a child?&#8221;
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Actually, Shaun, if you were referring to Benjamin, he did say that supports his local CPC directly (not just his local church).&#160; Feel free to reread it for yourself.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
CPC&#8217;s aren&#8217;t always open during hours that working guys can help, at least those with typical 9-5 jobs.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Because of abortion and skyrocketing infertility rates, there is currently far more demand for adoptive babies than there is supply.&#160; The problem is with older kids.&#160; Having been a foster parent of a teenager, I can attest to why these kids are so hard to get adopted.&#160; It takes a special calling, skillset and time in life to be able to do that.&#160; It also involves an incredible amount of government intrusion into how one runs one&#8217;s life, since older kid adoptions are almost always state adoptions.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
I don&#8217;t get what seems to have been your hypercritical reaction to Benjamin.&#160; It seems like you didn&#8217;t even read all of what he wrote before responding.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Abortion is a very private decision.&#160; Each year tens of thousands of abortions occur without even a parents or spouses knowledge, let alone public knowledge.&#160; It is unreasonable to expect personal involvement from the average Joe. In my opinion, giving to the local CPC (and church depending on what they are doing) and voting for pro-life candidates are very commendable actions, in no way worthy of the criticism received.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
MB
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So you’re not personally doing anything about an issue you obviously care a great deal about other than giving your money to your church. Why not cut out the middle man (and his salary) and give directly to the crisis pregnancy center?&nbsp; Why not ask them if they could use your help with anything a few hours a week (or even month)?&nbsp; Why not adopt a child?&#8221;
</p>
<p>
Actually, Shaun, if you were referring to Benjamin, he did say that supports his local CPC directly (not just his local church).&nbsp; Feel free to reread it for yourself.
</p>
<p>
CPC&#8217;s aren&#8217;t always open during hours that working guys can help, at least those with typical 9-5 jobs.
</p>
<p>
Because of abortion and skyrocketing infertility rates, there is currently far more demand for adoptive babies than there is supply.&nbsp; The problem is with older kids.&nbsp; Having been a foster parent of a teenager, I can attest to why these kids are so hard to get adopted.&nbsp; It takes a special calling, skillset and time in life to be able to do that.&nbsp; It also involves an incredible amount of government intrusion into how one runs one&#8217;s life, since older kid adoptions are almost always state adoptions.
</p>
<p>
I don&#8217;t get what seems to have been your hypercritical reaction to Benjamin.&nbsp; It seems like you didn&#8217;t even read all of what he wrote before responding.
</p>
<p>
Abortion is a very private decision.&nbsp; Each year tens of thousands of abortions occur without even a parents or spouses knowledge, let alone public knowledge.&nbsp; It is unreasonable to expect personal involvement from the average Joe. In my opinion, giving to the local CPC (and church depending on what they are doing) and voting for pro-life candidates are very commendable actions, in no way worthy of the criticism received.
</p>
<p>
MB</p>
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		<title>By: Annee</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4008</link>
		<dc:creator>Annee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4008</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You are a rock star for this post!&#160; I came unglued after I received one of &#8220;those&#8221; emails from someone in my home school group.&#160; Needless to say she won&#8217;t accept emails from me now.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are a rock star for this post!&nbsp; I came unglued after I received one of &#8220;those&#8221; emails from someone in my home school group.&nbsp; Needless to say she won&#8217;t accept emails from me now.</p>
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		<title>By: Carole Turner</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4007</link>
		<dc:creator>Carole Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4007</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Great post. I get thous e-mails you are referring too ALL THE TIME! They are evil.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
I wrote a blog post called &#8220;Grace in Politics&#8221; last week talking about this very thing.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://thewardrobeandthewhitetree.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://thewardrobeandthewhitetree.com&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Fear, not grace, is what is guiding many Christians today.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I get thous e-mails you are referring too ALL THE TIME! They are evil.
</p>
<p>
I wrote a blog post called &#8220;Grace in Politics&#8221; last week talking about this very thing.
</p>
<p>
<a href="http://thewardrobeandthewhitetree.com" rel="nofollow">http://thewardrobeandthewhitetree.com</a>
</p>
<p>
Fear, not grace, is what is guiding many Christians today.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: benjamin</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4006</link>
		<dc:creator>benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4006</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I do know someone who had an abortion.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Each person needs to be personally involved, but financial support or the political fight are also both important and personal.&#160; There is an industry built around abortion.&#160; Many don&#8217;t even see the depravity.&#160; I wasn&#8217;t saying abortion is actually a relief, but it is marketed as an easy way out.&#160; One of the candidates has even proclaimed that he wouldn&#8217;t want his daughters to be &#8220;punished with a baby&#8221; because of a mistake.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Your argument that government policy will not be as effective at saving lives as loving moms seems to be a platitude.&#160; The truth is that when abortions were illegal, there were far fewer.&#160; Outlawing the slave trade dramatically decreased the number of slaves.&#160; The political/public opinion fight is a very real and pragmatic way of addressing the issue.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
I&#8217;m glad you are involved in the fight.&#160; We need to work together as a unit.&#160; Not everyone can be a hand or an eye, but we should each contribute in the way God has gifted us.&#160; (That isn&#8217;t saying I won&#8217;t be doing some of the things you suggested.)
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
It&#8217;s funny how a discussion about whether we should go out and try to elect the candidate who will persecute the church the most has turned to personally attacking me for not being involved battling abortion the way someone else thinks I should.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Sean is right to point out that we don&#8217;t need to let our hearts be troubled.&#160; Persecution can purify the bride, and God will protect his church.&#160; My hangup is the idea that with our responsibility to vote we should vote for the most ungodly &#8220;madman&#8221; we can find.&#160; At this time that would be Obama.&#160; I don&#8217;t think Sean really meant that, but it could be taken that way.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do know someone who had an abortion.
</p>
<p>
Each person needs to be personally involved, but financial support or the political fight are also both important and personal.&nbsp; There is an industry built around abortion.&nbsp; Many don&#8217;t even see the depravity.&nbsp; I wasn&#8217;t saying abortion is actually a relief, but it is marketed as an easy way out.&nbsp; One of the candidates has even proclaimed that he wouldn&#8217;t want his daughters to be &#8220;punished with a baby&#8221; because of a mistake.
</p>
<p>
Your argument that government policy will not be as effective at saving lives as loving moms seems to be a platitude.&nbsp; The truth is that when abortions were illegal, there were far fewer.&nbsp; Outlawing the slave trade dramatically decreased the number of slaves.&nbsp; The political/public opinion fight is a very real and pragmatic way of addressing the issue.
</p>
<p>
I&#8217;m glad you are involved in the fight.&nbsp; We need to work together as a unit.&nbsp; Not everyone can be a hand or an eye, but we should each contribute in the way God has gifted us.&nbsp; (That isn&#8217;t saying I won&#8217;t be doing some of the things you suggested.)
</p>
<p>
It&#8217;s funny how a discussion about whether we should go out and try to elect the candidate who will persecute the church the most has turned to personally attacking me for not being involved battling abortion the way someone else thinks I should.
</p>
<p>
Sean is right to point out that we don&#8217;t need to let our hearts be troubled.&nbsp; Persecution can purify the bride, and God will protect his church.&nbsp; My hangup is the idea that with our responsibility to vote we should vote for the most ungodly &#8220;madman&#8221; we can find.&nbsp; At this time that would be Obama.&nbsp; I don&#8217;t think Sean really meant that, but it could be taken that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Groves</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4005</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Groves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4005</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;So you&#8217;re not personally doing anything about an issue you obviously care a great deal about other than giving your money to your church.&#160; Why not cut out the middle man (and his salary) and give directly to the crisis pregnancy center?&#160; Why not ask them if they could use your help with anything a few hours a week (or even month)?&#160; Why not adopt a child?
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Have you ever known someone considering abortion?
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
I worked at a childrens&#8217; home in Waco, Texas when I was in college. A girl there got pregnant.&#160; She was seventeen.&#160; Without family, without a close community of friends with money around her, she was wrestling with the choice of whether to keep her child and be what she thought would be a horrible parent, carry the child for nine months and then give him or her up for adoption, or face the guilt and dangers of an abortion.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
While to you and I, with our life experiences and (limited) understanding of God, may see this decision as  an easy one to make, it was not for her.&#160; She didn&#8217;t grow up hearing that God loved her.&#160; She did not know anyone who had adopted a child - didn&#8217;t know how well loved and cared for an adopted baby could be.&#160; She did not know if she could handle birth.&#160; Add to all this uncertainty a lot of hormonal changes and social pressure from peers and adult leaders in her life and you can understand I hope just how difficult this woman&#8217;s life was.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
I&#8217;ve known only a handful of women who have considered abortion - and one who had the abortion.&#160; I&#8217;ve not known any of them to view abortion as a &#8220;relief.&#8221;  And the women I&#8217;ve known who did not have an abortion made that choice primarily because they had real human beings willing to pay their bills, go to doctor appointments with them, forgive them, celebrate their pregnancy, love them daily, and even adopt their child when it was born.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Regardless of how you and I vote, I do not believe government policy will ever be a greater tool in saving lives and loving moms than you and I can be right now.&#160; But our power is only as great as our generosity and compassion.&#160; That will require more from us than giving money to our churches and voting.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you&#8217;re not personally doing anything about an issue you obviously care a great deal about other than giving your money to your church.&nbsp; Why not cut out the middle man (and his salary) and give directly to the crisis pregnancy center?&nbsp; Why not ask them if they could use your help with anything a few hours a week (or even month)?&nbsp; Why not adopt a child?
</p>
<p>
Have you ever known someone considering abortion?
</p>
<p>
I worked at a childrens&#8217; home in Waco, Texas when I was in college. A girl there got pregnant.&nbsp; She was seventeen.&nbsp; Without family, without a close community of friends with money around her, she was wrestling with the choice of whether to keep her child and be what she thought would be a horrible parent, carry the child for nine months and then give him or her up for adoption, or face the guilt and dangers of an abortion.
</p>
<p>
While to you and I, with our life experiences and (limited) understanding of God, may see this decision as  an easy one to make, it was not for her.&nbsp; She didn&#8217;t grow up hearing that God loved her.&nbsp; She did not know anyone who had adopted a child &#8211; didn&#8217;t know how well loved and cared for an adopted baby could be.&nbsp; She did not know if she could handle birth.&nbsp; Add to all this uncertainty a lot of hormonal changes and social pressure from peers and adult leaders in her life and you can understand I hope just how difficult this woman&#8217;s life was.
</p>
<p>
I&#8217;ve known only a handful of women who have considered abortion &#8211; and one who had the abortion.&nbsp; I&#8217;ve not known any of them to view abortion as a &#8220;relief.&#8221;  And the women I&#8217;ve known who did not have an abortion made that choice primarily because they had real human beings willing to pay their bills, go to doctor appointments with them, forgive them, celebrate their pregnancy, love them daily, and even adopt their child when it was born.
</p>
<p>
Regardless of how you and I vote, I do not believe government policy will ever be a greater tool in saving lives and loving moms than you and I can be right now.&nbsp; But our power is only as great as our generosity and compassion.&nbsp; That will require more from us than giving money to our churches and voting.</p>
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		<title>By: benjamin</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4004</link>
		<dc:creator>benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4004</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I monetarily support my local church and we support a local pregnancy support center.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
I for one am sick of the notion that abortion is some kind of relief for which we have to provide an alternative.&#160; One, it is murder.&#160; Two, it is a deceitful to imply that a woman is better off after an abortion so unless someone makes it just as nice as it would be after an abortion we can&#8217;t expect her not to have one.&#160; What is that?&#160; It&#8217;s a cop-out.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
It&#8217;s not how I define evil that is important&#8212;it is how Scripture defines it.&#160; According to the Bible, infanticide is evil.&#160; Take a look at the 10 commandments. (Heavy taxation is also frowned upon!)
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I monetarily support my local church and we support a local pregnancy support center.
</p>
<p>
I for one am sick of the notion that abortion is some kind of relief for which we have to provide an alternative.&nbsp; One, it is murder.&nbsp; Two, it is a deceitful to imply that a woman is better off after an abortion so unless someone makes it just as nice as it would be after an abortion we can&#8217;t expect her not to have one.&nbsp; What is that?&nbsp; It&#8217;s a cop-out.
</p>
<p>
It&#8217;s not how I define evil that is important&#8212;it is how Scripture defines it.&nbsp; According to the Bible, infanticide is evil.&nbsp; Take a look at the 10 commandments. (Heavy taxation is also frowned upon!)</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Groves</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4003</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Groves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4003</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;That being said, abortion is the slavery of our day.&#160; It is wrong to not come to the rescue of the innocent, oppressed, and helpless if it is within our power&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Abortion is a terrible thing.&#160; It&#8217;s murder.&#160; No matter how you slice it.&#160; Agreed, Ben.&#160; And, yes, it is wrong not to come to the rescue of the innocent when we can do so without committing murder ourselves.&#160; Agreed.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
So what are you personally doing to come to the rescue of mothers and babies, Ben?&#160; Besides voting, what are your personally doing to perform this rescue?
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
&lt;i&gt;It is quite another for a Christian to throw his/her support behind an evil ruler.&#160; God will hold us accountable for our votes.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Agreed, again, Ben.&#160; So, how do you define evil?&#160; Are you really willing to say publicly that your candidate of choice have never acted in office to support &#8220;evil&#8221; in any way?
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That being said, abortion is the slavery of our day.&nbsp; It is wrong to not come to the rescue of the innocent, oppressed, and helpless if it is within our power</i>
</p>
<p>
Abortion is a terrible thing.&nbsp; It&#8217;s murder.&nbsp; No matter how you slice it.&nbsp; Agreed, Ben.&nbsp; And, yes, it is wrong not to come to the rescue of the innocent when we can do so without committing murder ourselves.&nbsp; Agreed.
</p>
<p>
So what are you personally doing to come to the rescue of mothers and babies, Ben?&nbsp; Besides voting, what are your personally doing to perform this rescue?
</p>
<p>
<i>It is quite another for a Christian to throw his/her support behind an evil ruler.&nbsp; God will hold us accountable for our votes.</i>
</p>
<p>
Agreed, again, Ben.&nbsp; So, how do you define evil?&nbsp; Are you really willing to say publicly that your candidate of choice have never acted in office to support &#8220;evil&#8221; in any way?</p>
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		<title>By: dean</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4002</link>
		<dc:creator>dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 05:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4002</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was surprised nobody mentioned this by now, but I think it&#8217;s worth noting that the citizenry of the Roman Empire didn&#8217;t have the luxury or the right to vote for Emperor.&#160;
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Voting is a right that carries with it a huge responsibility.&#160; Too many people take that for granted far too often.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was surprised nobody mentioned this by now, but I think it&#8217;s worth noting that the citizenry of the Roman Empire didn&#8217;t have the luxury or the right to vote for Emperor.&nbsp;
</p>
<p>
Voting is a right that carries with it a huge responsibility.&nbsp; Too many people take that for granted far too often.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: benjamin</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4001</link>
		<dc:creator>benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4001</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;God is in control, and persecution will only serve to weed out those who are not true believers while the true believers will be refined.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
That being said, abortion is the slavery of our day.&#160; It is wrong to not come to the rescue of the innocent, oppressed, and helpless if it is within our power.&#160; There is really no debate for the Christian when it comes to abortion.&#160; To stand aloof and become irritated with those who God has stirred with compassion and who have grieved for the helpless is a bit troubling.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
BTW, it is one thing for the church to be pruned by the hand of God through a wicked leader.&#160; It is quite another for a Christian to throw his/her support behind an evil ruler.&#160; God will hold us accountable for our votes.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God is in control, and persecution will only serve to weed out those who are not true believers while the true believers will be refined.
</p>
<p>
That being said, abortion is the slavery of our day.&nbsp; It is wrong to not come to the rescue of the innocent, oppressed, and helpless if it is within our power.&nbsp; There is really no debate for the Christian when it comes to abortion.&nbsp; To stand aloof and become irritated with those who God has stirred with compassion and who have grieved for the helpless is a bit troubling.
</p>
<p>
BTW, it is one thing for the church to be pruned by the hand of God through a wicked leader.&nbsp; It is quite another for a Christian to throw his/her support behind an evil ruler.&nbsp; God will hold us accountable for our votes.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristie Braselton</title>
		<link>http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4000</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristie Braselton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shaungroves.com/2008/10/help-the-church-vote-for-a-madman/#comment-4000</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well said, Shaun. Thank you for posting that.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Shaun. Thank you for posting that.</p>
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