Shaun Groves
Last night I had dinner with a famous guy who was once part of a famous band.
I don’t really know this guy. His wife invited us over to remedy that. So there I was eating on some yummy fake meat tacos – my wife, him, his wife, our noisy kids running everywhere – when his story was told: Signed a record deal shortly after college. Huge song on the radio shortly after that. Money rolled in. Bought a house. Touring Spring, Fall and Summer and now Christmas? Recording on “days off” to get that next huge song on the radio. Wife not so happy about all this. Label and band not so happy about her being not so happy about all this. Tension. More money. More travel. More tension. More radio singles to promote and tours to jump on. More money. More tension. Realization that the band and the label and the manager and the label will always want more money and will never slow down and he and his wife will never enjoy this kind of life as much as the other guys say they do. He quits the band.
He’s happier now. His wife is happier now. They have kids now. Beautiful kids who don’t know he’s famous and wouldn’t care. His house is smaller now. His face isn’t on magazine covers now and he’s not on the radio. He won’t be downtown next week. He won’t win a(nother) Dove award or Grammy ever. But he’s happier.
And people in the music business run into him sometimes at the mall, on a day off between sessions or tours, and they look at him through sunglasses, with pity bending their eyebrows, tilt their head slightly to one side and most sincerely ask, “Are you doin’ OK? Really?”
“Yes,” he says. “Great.”
(I think I just made a new friend.)
Rachel says:
I’ll be honest, Shaun. This post frustrates me a bit.
One of my best friends is weighing the “options” of the industry right now. She’s well aware of stories like this, since they’re all too common…but my quesiton is this: wouldn’t you say it’s worth a shot if it’s someone’s dream? I’m not naive enough to think that being on a label or getting a spot on some tour will automatically equate to living the dream…but it could help open the right doors.
I only know what I’ve heard from other “industry veterans,” but it seems disillusionment is on the rise. Is there really any remedy?
Shaun Groves says:
I’m not anti-signing a record a deal. Though it’s less necessary now than ever before. And when signing a deal, hiring a manager, signing a booking contract, signing a publishing deal, putting a road manager on payroll, being in business with the rest of the band – when you make all these attachments and promises you give up control over yourself, your family, your performance and sometimes message and you even give up control over what that “dream” that got you to sign on the dotted line in the first place can look like.
You see, we sign the contracts because we want to do X but the booking guy wants to do S and the manager thinks you should do C and R and the bass player and the lead vocalist wants E and W and you and the drummer want a day off and then E and the label wants D. And what’s that spell?
Exactly.
So, be careful is all. Make sure that dream isn’t ego, or greed or bad theology that says “I’m most useful when I’m most well known.” That’s all. Be careful.
West says:
I agree w/both of you. If it’s your dream, follow it; but make sure you surround yourself with the right people. Do your homework, don’t rely on everyone else to do it for you. I’m a Musician’s Institute grad that thought he was going to be rawk stah in a band. I made a ton of bad choices in life, but that one really affected my career path. Now I am a recruiter trying to get Web Developers to go work for a big sunglasses company in South Orange County. While I still play drums (probably my truest passion EVER) at church, I miss the fellowship of 2 or 3 rehearsals a week, piling in the van and driving to Fresno or San Louis Obispo. Making music is one of the best feelings in the world, but when all the other crap starts dragging you down, you get overwhelmed.
*sigh* I am very happy with my life outside of my career.
The biggest question is, “who was the guy?”
Spence Smith says:
Great post shawn…
I agree with you. Dreams are great and I’m for them…I’ve chased this very dream and in the end…as much fun and impact we had at times..What you gain in money, fame, and audience can cost you dearly by having to sacrifice family, relationships, and life all to be controlled by the collective group and not so much you. It’s a tricky balance. I’m proud of your rock star friend…and I’m proud of you.
Rachel says:
Thank you for the honest reply, Shaun. Indeed, caution is something I always encourage (maybe too much sometimes). As for my best friend, she is around some folks that I perceive as pretty legit. We will see what happens…
I know there’s really not a clean-cut answer to a lot of these issues…it just seems like there should be a better way of doing things.
John Ireland says:
so cool, shaun, to hear of a family that chose the covenant of their marriage and the stewardship of parenting over something that – it seems – was close to fracturing all of it.
also, i get the knitted brow/tilted head look/”are you ok? sure?” deal well.
sweet that ya got a new friend…
Shaun Groves says:
Rachel, e-mail me the names of your friend’s “pretty legit” friends and I’ll not be able to tell you bad stuff about them if I know it (wouldn’t be right) but I can tell you the questions she should ask so she can uncover the truth for herself…which will hopefully be all positive and wonderful.
If we can save just one rock star… ; )
Rachel says:
Done. Gracias!
keith says:
I’m guessing it was this guy. Just a guess.
[I deleted the link. No sense feeding rumors that aren’t true. – Shaun]
Shaun Groves says:
And you’d be guessing wrong. And, keith, if I DIDN’T say who it was in the post don’tcha think there might be a good reason?
Kelly @ Love Well says:
I’m not familiar with the music industry, Shaun, but I do have friends in other high-visibility, high-power arenas.
And this is my thought: It takes a lot of guts and a lot of God to walk away when the stakes appear to be high. I respect tremendously that you and your new friend followed God’s voice when He called you to walk away.
Sometimes, God calls us to walk on water by doing something “big” for him. Sometimes, He calls us to walk on water by walking away from what the world deems big.
Shaun Groves says:
Kelly, admire my new friend, but not me. I didn’t so much walk away as walk away while being walked away from. It takes guts and faith to walk away when you’re on top. It’s pretty easy to walk away on your way down – in fact, it’s natural.
Thanks for the encouragement. I hope he’s reading along and boosted by your kind words.
Kenyon says:
I am curious those…the picture in the post looks like a screen capture from Spinal Tap.
andira says:
Shaun, I consistently read your blogs b/c of these kind of honest, heartfelt thoughts. I appreciate these conversations. Thanks for moderating the way you do. That is admirable, truly. All glory to God for what He does!
Toby says:
Shaun Groves said:
And you’d be guessing wrong. And, keith, if I DIDN’T say who it was in the post don’tcha think there might be a good reason?
Posted on 04/17 at 11:29 AM
==================================
Shaun,
I used your story as a Sermon illustration one Sunday when I preaching for a Seminary Ministerial ed day and one of the critiques was that I should have told the name of the musician I was talking about. I told the seminary rep that the musician wasn’t the point, the actions of the musician were the point so I left out the name. I also told him I thought you would prefer it be about the message and not about the person.
Michiel says:
Actually, this post makes me a little bit sad (or, maybe a lot…)
‘Cause Jesus’ whole idea was that we would be in the world, but not like te world, right? So our mindset should not be about more money or more fame for ourselves.
It’s a narrow road and it takes all of me to become all for Him.
So, can someone tell me what’s for real? I listen to the music and I’m touched by the lyrics – but is it all because of self centered fame or riches?
No longer I but Christ in me!
Michiel says:
Oh, and Shaun, whenever you’re visiting the Netherlands, I’d be glad to try and arrange a platform for your message, music and ehm… heart.
Paul J. says:
I think we’ll eventually see that the rise of MySpace, iTunes, internet marketing, and the progressive unimportance of the “labels” was the best thing ever for what we call CCM.
shaunfan says:
Thanks for your insight. I feel like it’s been awhile since we got your views on the industry and with GMA week coming up, it’s timely. As usual, I’m disenchanted by the awards process and the whole label money pressure issue. However, Paul’s point about labels being less important is starting to give me hope that the industry is getting more artist focused, as it should be. If only the awards results reflected the best artists, then I would be really happy. By the way, isn’t there an indie category now?
Take care,
Kevin
Spinster-in-the-Making says:
Two thoughts:
1. Who the heck is that in the picture?
2. Good stuff.
Seth Ward says:
Guy in pic: Mark Wahlberg
Movie: “Rockstar”
Thomas says:
I know this is a littl bit of topic, but Jason Gray wrote about having to change a line in one of songs so it would get played on radio. http://www.rabbitroom.com/?p=655
Thomas
Shaun Groves says:
ON topic. Jason Gray’s real name is not Jason GRAY.
Hmmm.
And I love his lyrics.
(Joking. Well, it’s NOT his real name. But that’s not a big deal and not actually on topic. Or funny. I guess.)
keith says:
Sorry. Didn’t mean to spread rumors, but you did narrow it down for me. Maybe it was this guy.*
*This is not a guess. It’s totally a joke.
stephanie lee says:
here’s the thing. some of us can be very happy with where our spouses land. maybe we just do a good job of saying “NO”, but this is a passion, ministry and job for my husband. we love our life, friends, church and mostly bandmates. i know some people get “burnt” but others haven’t for whatever reason and go on to live normal, happy lives under other circumstances. maybe find some of those folks that are satisfied with their traditional music industry lives- labels, management, booking, via larger corporations and point the young ones with questions to them as well. i hate seeing dream squashed and what if that kid that is scared to death by what they’ve just read could have heard a happy ending story as well??? wouldn’t it be worth a risk. you know, as they always say, there are 2 side to every story!! much love, stephanie lee
shaunfan says:
Thanks Stephanie for your insight. I’m guessing your husband is Mark Lee of Third Day. I love your husband’s blog
http://marklee.typepad.com/this_guy_falls_down/ and band and just posted this morning about my favorite guitar solos.
I’m sure Shaun respects your lifestyle and I think he mostly comes from the perspective of a fellow musician who knows both sides of the industry. Mark’s success is fantastic and I’m so glad to know that you lead “normal, happy lives”. I think that’s the most important outcome whether or not you are with a record label.
Can’t wait for the new album, love the new song “Call My Name”.
Take care and God Bless!
Kevin
Shaun Groves says:
Stephanie is a friend – a friend I don’t see much, but a friend. And I totally agree that there are folks like her and Mark (he’s in Third Day) who “succeed” and remain healthy in marriage and faith. But it’s hard. I think you’d agree, Stephanie, as someone who’s made the effort and fought the good fight, that’s very very hard to do at times. And, as part of a band, I think you’d agree, your husband and you give up some (a lot?) of control over your lives to the other members of the band, the product cycle, the demands of marketers and radio stations and label types and contracts and managers. And, if those folks who have a say in how your life will be lived, don’t see things as you do, don’t share your priorities, your life can become difficult/impossible. Agree with all that, Stephanie? It’s hard.
Let’s imagine we’re in Third Day. Incredibly successful band. Great guys. Much respect here. Imagine you’re in the band. Your life is shared with and partially governed by a business called Third Day, and one called Creative Trust, and one called Provident Music Group and the wives of the other guys in the band and on and on. Your dates are planed out months in advance and secured with contracts. You can’t just take a vacation when you need one. You have to have permission in some form. That’s just normal work/community stuff right? You can’t just leave the tour and come home because you’re needed or just wanted or because your kids miss you. You can’t sit together in church most Sundays. You can’t always make the Christmas party or the garage sale or… It’s hard. And Stephanie and Mark and others have dealt with the difficulty well. Very well from what I see on the outside. But not everyone does or can though. I can’t do that. I’m not made for that. Most artists I’ve known have dropped out within two years of signing (I just counted 13) – because it’s hard – harder in a band – harder when no one warns you upfront about what this life is like. Labels don’t. Managers don’t. I am. Prepare yourself, I’m saying, get ready for it, eyes open, be alert, talk to your wife about all this now, set boundaries now, find wise counsel now, weigh the costs now, then do what you’re called to do in the healthiest way you can.
So this post is a cautionary tale – that’s all. This is what CAN happen. Can YOU handle it? Can YOU live this way? Leaving the industry is what made my new FRIEND happy – results may vary. Being independent has brought me more freedom and satisfaction – results may vary. What works for YOU?
Maybe Mark and Stephanie could tell their story, what works for them, how it works in their band, what their priorities are, what rules and practices they have in place to preserve the health of the band’s members, how they’ve dealt with folks who want more than they can give or with people who want to head directions they don’t want to head, how they’ve managed to keep everything balanced and remain healthy – tell it on their blogs. I’d read. I’d link to it. Would anybody else?
Go for it, Stephanie! I’d love to point folks to a good artist story.
Cali Amy says:
I get that the touring and the limelight would be hard. But you’re right about some of that being normal work stuff. Like vacation.
My students have a very irregular work schedule. (I work with adults) There are times when they are expected to be at work seven days a week, up to 12 hours a day. They are not getting paid that much. They are making our medicine. They also don’t really have a choice to leave it behind. They can’t even go to the bathroom now without “clocking out” Their time is very regulated. They might want to take vacation days and have the days but the company won’t let them.
What you’re describing is not unique (except for travel/limelight) to the music industry I think it’s an epidemic in this country.
stephanie lee says:
Ok, you got your post. Thanks for encouraging and engaging other in this.
angie says:
Shaun,
I totally see the point you’re trying to make. And have read you enough to know your point of view on most things. I don’t always agree, but you ALWAYS make me think. . and I apperciate that and your music and work with compassion.
I’m a sahm and my husband, former Air Force now letter carrier has no say over vaction time, helping with the garage sale ect. . . This past Christmas Eve he worked until 7:oo pm so his customers could get their mail.
So, I’m just saying for those of us in the ‘real world’ it’s just as hard and with way less money or resourses.
I’m just saying. . .
I do think it’s intersesting that whenever a person makes a decsion in their life other don’t get,everybody wants to know if you’re ‘ok’. And yet never seem to believe you?!?
tony says:
I’m totally late on this one, but I can relate (on some level) with your friend, Shaun.
I never had a “hit” and wasn’t “on top”… we were knocking on the door, though, and if we’d persisted, I think we would’ve gotten there. But I just wasn’t willing to pay the price anymore.
During the time I spent in the CCM industry (which is what it is… an industry), my wife and I intentionally sat down at the end of each year to discuss the price we were paying to chase the dream. One year we both realized that I’d been working my tail off to reach a goal that neither of us really wanted – a goal that would require me to travel a ton and miss out on huge chunks of her life and the lives of our kids.
So, we chose to put the dream away. There are times that I miss it. But it pales in comparison to the time I’ve gotten to spend with my wife and kids. Best decision I ever made.
Just my two cents… that and $4 will get you some Starbucks.