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About Shaun — Shaun Groves is a communicator who’s known by a lot of titles: Singer/songwriter. Speaker. Blogger. Husband. Daddy. Friend. He feels and thinks deeply and laughs easily. And he’s helping Christians discover what they were saved for, and being a voice for children around the world, desperate to be saved from poverty.
I was wrong for wanting revenge for what had happened. I should have been on my knees begging for mercy and justice.
Thomas
Wow! This picture is convicting and made my eyes do a double take. Thanks for sharing. I may put it on my blog too.
It seems we have yet to learn that “the past is prophetic in that it asserts that wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows. One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means. How much longer must we play at deadly war games before we head the plaintive pleas of the unnumbered dead and maimed of past wars?” Martin Luther King Jr
I love America.
But I am ashamed of our leadership and I am ashamed of myself for believing them.
Support our troops. Support the Iraqis. Support freedom.
But now, I don’t see how the war was the right thing to do.
Hey Shaun,
thanks for posting these statistics which truly are more than just numbers. If I may encourage you to find out if a movie called “Taxi To The Darkside” is playing near you and see it, I think you might like to see it. It is not a feel good movie, in fact you may leave the theater feeling a little sick, but it is a documentary I will never forget. I hope all is well with you.
Peace, Shawn
My husband spent a little over a year w/ the Army in Baghdad and then Kuwait. He once spent an afternoon picking up body parts. I don’t get this war, anymore… at one time I thought I did. Thank you for the reminder… I think we sometimes forget w/out as much media coverage. Praying.
So what do I do? Pray? Pray for what? Peace? Peace for who? Aren’t people going to continue killing each other as long as we are made of flesh and blodd? Really what am I supposed to do with this? (I’m not angry…just really trying to get a grip.)
When will “PRO-LIFE” really mean pro-life?
Yawns…. and yet in the last ten years, 250,000 people have died in alcohol related car accidents. That’s an average of 25,000 Per year. I’m really sick and tired of hearing from the Main Stream Media about the soldiers who die over there. Not that I don’t value what they do, on the contrary, my family has a long line of serving the country, but my problem with it is that they ignore statistics of even greater significance in order to gain political points. Death is a startling statistic no matter what that death is from. I wonder how many Abortions have been performed since 9/11… hrms,.
Can I ask where you got these stats? Because I have heard many extremely wildly different number of civilians killed. We’re talking anywhere from 200K to 50K to 10K, most of them killed in the first few months.
As a result, I tend to take most of the reports of the “other side” killed in Iraq with a shaker of salt.
I’m sorry, but I can’t see that “exactly how many” and “which side” really matters. To me, it doesn’t change the point of this post.
All of these deaths sprang directly from the hatred in man’s heart.
Oh and did you know that infant mortality in the DR Congo is now at 41%? (I only know because I read Texas in Africa)
As shocking and sobering as these statistics and pictures are, the best thing that can be done is to continue to individualize these numbers…
Thanks for having the courage to post this.
Cristy, it seems that the point of this post is that all of these numbers are connected. That’s true, but there are many more “numbers” connected that are not shown, especially as you descend down the list. That’s why I wonder who killed all those civilians? I don’t think they were all killed by American hands. Nobody has said that they were, of course. Just wonderin’.
–
often times it seems to me that christians are mostly vocal on the issues that CNN broadcasts.
christians martyred in china?
believers persecuted in india?
the frequent, brutal attacks on israel?
i don’t see them making these lists.
here’s a graphic for this post…
http://genepensiero.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4306&g2_serialNumber=1
the whole world needs Christ, not just the areas that are popular to talk about right now.
thanks for the reminder shaun.
gene- i’m not sure he was saying only this area needs Jesus. this post isn’t even about that. it’s about bringing attention to the thousands of lives (american & iraqi) lost for the sake of american ‘freedom’.
as for the martyrs…praise God for them. they’re doing something with their lives most of us are too scared to even think of doing. they should be talked about…praised about. we could all learn from them.
How many people have to die for either faith’s God to be happy?
151,000 people created in the image of God.
I know it would mess up the trajectory of the ascending statistics, but the narrative of this arrangement might (should?) also include the approximately 600,000 civilian executions, 100,000 murdered Kurds, 500,000 Iraq/Iran war casualties, and 400,000 children dying before age 5 of preventable malnutrition, all of which occurred during Saddam Hussein’s regime.
Not saying that justifies the war. Just saying if we’re figuring in the numbers of deaths, those are some staggering statistics that ought to be included, even if they derail “the point.”
Peace
Jareed is absolutely right in pointing out the numbers of deaths under Saddam. Not only that, but going forward how many would Saddam and his evil sons have slaughtered? Much of the death and destruction we see continuing is a direct result the radical Islamic religious zeal. Here on this planet, under the weight of sin we are going to have a paradise where evil always loses and good always wins. We do our best with the responsibilities we have been given.
There is such thing as a just war—and remember that at certain times God directed his people to wipe out opposing nations—men, women, children, and animals—completely. In fact, when Saul let the opposing king live it was considered SIN.
As Christians we regret the loss of innocent life, but to stand by and watch a Saddam Hussein commit genocide is also sin.
What number constitutes genocide? Have we enabled that number?
The OT argument does not apply here unless you believe the Iraq war is a Holy War between Christians and Muslims. Do you believe God spoke directly to our President and told him to invade Iraq for the glory of God? In the OT God always defeated larger armies with smaller ones – again this does not apply in this war.
I think no matter where you stand on this issue, you can take a few moments to grieve the loss of life.
I’m not a pacifist; I do believe there is such a thing as just war, although I think all wars are tragic.
But I suppose it would only complicate matters (in relation to my previous comment) if I mentioned that I think the Iraq war was a mistake.
Of course, I think it was a mistake in retrospect, and lots of folks who think it’s wrong now didn’t think it was wrong at the outset and would make their cases more convincing if they’d admit that.
I also think it would be a mistake to pull all our troops out now.
This stuff is messy. Peace and justice on a global scale is a messy business, and I tend to eschew easy answers, pat logic, and emotional propaganda from both sides and any in between.
I just think that if the pictures meant to tell a story somewhat close to the point of “3,000 deaths do not merit all the tens of thousands after” or that “war doesn’t solve anything,” or whatever, it conveniently left out some rather huge death tolls that might make the story less “neat.”
Sin is always ugly. Sin is always staggering. Sin always causes conflict. Sin is anything that takes our focus off God.
Beth
First, take a good look at the numbers Jared has provided. Yes, 89,000 civilians have died but how many more were saved? Yes, it has taken a sacrifice of human life but would you give yours to save innocents? Shawn, you went to Uganda to see what we don’t see because if we did maybe we would do something. Isn’t this the same thing but with guns? Just because you haven’t seen it on the nightly news didn’t mean they didn’t need help.
As far as the American death number. 7500 soldiers died while Bill Clinton was President and we weren’t in a war.
The war with Iraq isn’t all about revenge (that was Afghanistan and eliminating a threat). The war with Iraq is two fold. 1- Eliminates a direct threat to the only democracy in the middle east (Israel) and indirect to all western civilization through weapons and the support of terrorism (We can go farther on that if you want but I am not talking WMD). 2- The freeing of an oppressed people.
Brian,
You are totally wrong in dismissing the OT argument. Your point about a smaller army to conquer a larger one is totally wrong according to Scripture. In fact, God used the far more powerful Babylonian and Persian kings and their armies as His instruments of judgment. In these cases God did not have to directly command an invasion, and he doesn’t have to do that today either. Your preaching a partial truth but leaving out what is inconvenient to you… just like the images above do.
Jared,
>> it conveniently left out some rather huge death tolls that might make the story less “neat.”
I totally agree and that is the point I really want to make as well. Was Iraq a mistake? I don’t think we have anything near the perspective to make that call yet. However, as you mentioned when we do it will be in hindsight. Often life and death decisions must be made with less than perfect information. That is why God weighs the heart. One thing I do know is that God is in control and may very well be setting up the end time theater.
Staggering and heartbreaking. It took the book “The Irresistible Revolution” by Shane Claiborne for me to look at war from any perspective outside of not thinking about it. Thank you for the post.
I’m guessing the implied message of the pictoral is that had the U.S. not “waged war” in Iraq all those lives would not have been lost. Yes? Per the UN, 400,000 people have been killed in Darfur and over 2 million have been displaced. There are many critics that believe the U.S. hasn’t done enough in Darfur. Saddam killed 600,000 of his own people and there are many critics that believe the U.S. has done too much. Which lives do you think were more precious … the 400,000 we didn’t help save or the next 600,000 that Saddam could have killed?
I don’t like war. I wish we could bring all the troops home and live happily ever after. Was the Iraq war the right decision? I don’t know. But here’s the deal. We ARE in Iraq. We can criticize why all day long … but that doesn’t change the fact that we ARE there.
8 million Iraqis voted in the last election. 8 million people who risked their lives because they believe in the right to be free. The right to self-determination. Women, who had not been given the right to vote, had the opportunity to have their voices heard. Young girls now have access to education … something that wasn’t allowed in the last regime. Young men sign up to become Iraqi Police, because they believe the right to freedom is worth protecting. All of these people have come from the shadows of a dark dictatorship and have taken the risk to very publicly demonstrate their desire to be a free people. What has prompted them to do this … the United States of America.
I hear lots of talk on the TV about “bringing the troops home”. Oh, how I wish we could. But I’m telling you that if we just decide to bring them all home right now we would be betraying the trust these Iraqis have bestowed upon us as they work toward developing a free nation. If we leave right now … we effectively sign the death warrant of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Which lives are more important to you now?
I hate war. I wish we weren’t in Iraq. But we have an obligation to these people now. Are we not our brother’s keeper?
Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted.
Sorry to play the “Devil’s Advocate” here, and while it is horrible that so many people (American, Iraqi, civilian or no) lost their lives how many lives would have continued to be lost if the war had never happened? How many people were saved because these lives were lost?
I’m not a fan of Utilitarianism because I don’t feel comfortable attaching a dollar value to a life, or comparing the value of one life to another because humans created in God’s image are infinitely valuable, but sometimes tough decisions have to be made and I think the decision to enter into a war is one of those. Ultimately, one can’t know if the right decision was made until later and we can look back at history and (hopefully) learn from it.
I agree with the above poster. I’m no fan of war- it’s always a terrible thing. But how many people would have died in Iraq had the US not gone to war and removed Saddam?
In a list of the 20 worst genocides in history, Saddam was on there for killing more than 600,000 people. Who knows how many more people would have died with him still in power?
I don’t believe protecting the people of Iraq were the intentions that lead to the war, but if that is the result, then I can see an argument for it being justified.
to Ryan and Devil’s advocate, we will never know the answer to your question because we are in the war and I pray everyday for and end to it so that even more people don’t die. Every Christian should be praying for Iraq and for our leaders as well as theres.
Shaun, can I steal these pics? I will give you cred.
I would love for someone to point out where Jesus taught about “just wars.” To my recolection I believe Jesus taught about non-violence to the most extreme level. I do not think there is such a thing as a “just war” in this time and place.
Carole Turner, yes you may.
Shawn, this probably isn’t the right forum to explore just war theory properly. I’d just mention that Jesus taught that vengeance is wrong and that it belongs to God alone (something he didn’t innovate; that’s right out of the Old Covenant).
In terms of governmental, political execution of justice through force and what-not, Jesus essentially said nothing. He only said the kingdom of God wouldn’t be brought in that way and that those who go that route end where that route ends (“those who live by the sword . . .”).
Paul does speak of the government’s right to rule by the sword. Certainly he never mentioned the injustice of wars or things like capital punishment, and he had plenty of opportunity to do so given his frequent imprisonment.
One more thing I’d mention is that if war is never okay, God himself is evil for commanding his people to wage it. Unless you believe the God of the OT is different from the God of the NT, which is a whole different issue altogether.
I think just war, boiled down to its essence, involves protection of innocents and the execution of justice in ways that prevent demonstrable evil from flourishing.
I respect and admire those who read absolute pacifism in Jesus’ teaching. I also think the issue is not so simple as treating something faithful, godly, careful, brilliant theologians for centuries have differed on.
Why did Augustine believe in just war if one cannot find any shred of support for it in Scripture?
I’m not saying that Augustine proposing the theory makes it right; I’m just saying his proposing it should make it difficult to dismiss outright.
Oops!
This—I also think the issue is not so simple as treating something faithful, godly, careful, brilliant theologians for centuries have differed on.—should read thusly:
I also think the issue is not so simple as treating something faithful, godly, careful, brilliant theologians for centuries have differed on as obviously wrong.
Jared, if you do only a bit of research on just war, you will see that aside from the wars that God the father, himself, ordained in the Old Testament, there has never ever been a war that completely aligns with the Just War theory, at least the Just War theory that Augustine, C.S. Lewis, Martin Luther, and John Calvin believe in. Go back and check it out. This war, just like every other war in modern times, fails miserably to fit into the Just War theory. Odds are, we won’t see a war during our lifetime that will fit into the Just War theory…That’s why it’s called a theory. Yes, I am a pacifist (and a Calvinist).
Shawn,
Didn’t Jesus himself say that he didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword? Isn’t Jesus going to lead His army against the Antichrist and won’t their be so much carrion that the birds of the air will all be gorged?
Again, check the Scriptures.
I’m not trying to make war light or trivial, it is a serious a dirty affair. But sometimes it is the right option. To those who say there is no such thing as just war, I guess we should have just let Hitler do whatever he wanted and overrun the earth killing the Jews.
These numbers just don’t add up in any way, shape, or fasion, do they?
I agree with Jared here, sorry to disappoint you Eric, but war is not something we as individuals do, it is something our Governments do. Like it or not, despite the fact we have a “republic” in which we elect our representation and our leaders, I cannot believe that God’s hand is not in it. The bible makes it clear that he guides the hand of the King. Whether its a single King as in the days of the OT or a Plurality of aristocracy does not matter, God is in control of it. He sets up kings and he tears them down. God used Many nations to wage war on Israel as his judgment for disobedience.
Now that being said, would it have been better if we could sit down and talk out our differences with out picking up our sword? Sure it would, but this is not an Ideal world. We are all fallen creatures, who even though many of us on this blog even are saved, does not mean that we cannot be drawn into it. Nation’s have the right to self defense just as individuals do, and Nations fight to defend the rights of their citizens. I wish we could just pull out of Iraq bring ALL the troops home (the ones in Europe too), and not worry about it, but here’s the thing, Remember Pearl Harbor? Pearl Harbor taught us that we can not sit complacent and wait for the world to force us to take a side in the conflicts in this war, 9/11 was no different. If you stick your head in the sand, sooner or later someone is going to come along to kick you in the behind (After it makes quite a good target doesn’t it.) That’s why there are wars, that’s why we are in Iraq, and why me must finish the Job in Iraq. The loss of life is of course undesirable, but let us be honest here. The extremists that we are fighting over there, would soon move to hitting us over here. Heck its shocking we haven’t had another attack since 9/11. They have in Britain, Spain, and other European Nations. We cannot allow complacency to drive our foreign policy.
War is not the best outcome, it never is, but like it or not, God knew this would happen, and he also knew what the outcome would be. Now answer me this. If God really knew what was going to happen, and if you believe the bible you got to believe he knew. Why would he sit and let this happen? How about the Tower that fell on people that Jesus Mentioned? Does that mean that only those people in the Twin Towers were Sinners and they were being judged? Personally as I’ve said earlier, I believe God knew what was going to happen. Everything is happening on God’s schedule. Let us not forget Revelation, at some point Iran (Persia) Is going to rise up and attack Israel, its only a matter of time, the Bible has predicted it. And sometime shortly thereafter Babylon (Iraq) will rise again too. This is just part of the setting up the pieces for that final confrontation at Armageddon. There shall be wars, and rumors of wars. That was the prediction of one OT prophet. We are hearing more and more about military strife in other parts of the world: Tibet, Darfur, Kosvo, Iraq, Pakistan, etc. If you would have told me when I was a child that we’d be concerned about some nation called Pakistan so many miles away I’d have laughed at it. Like it or not we are concerned.
Benjamin -
Which passages are you referring to with the Babylonian and Persian armies being instruments of God? I would like to read those.
Brian
How about Jeremiah? Are you asking me about OT or NT references? It was clear from the prophets (particularly jeremiah) that the Babylonians were coming because Israel refused to repent.
Bah wish I could edit my previous Comment. I dont’ claim to be an end times scholar, I might have the events reversed. There is a point were it talks about the kings of the north, south, and east coming up against Jerusalem, I’ve always thought of Persia, and a few other nations when I think of that, China, Pakistan, Korea etc. Rev. Also mentions Babylon, and I know there is debate whether its figuratively called Babylon or literally is the same nation that was HQ’d out of the are where Bagdad/Iraq are now. Anyhow. The Medes and the Persians were predicted by God through Daniel, to come and judge Babylon for its wickedness. That much I am sure of.
Jared, if you do only a bit of research on just war, you will see that aside from the wars that God the father, himself, ordained in the Old Testament, there has never ever been a war that completely aligns with the Just War theory,
Eric, that was not my point. I wasn’t at any point trying to justify any war since the OT. I was only saying that if there is absolutely no such thing as a just war, then God himself is unjust for commanding them.
Didn’t Jesus himself say that he didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword?
Not to answer for Benjamin, but I don’t believe Jesus was speaking literally here. He was talking about the division the kingdom calls, the way it commands mankind to repent, the way it can divide families and loyalties.
It’s pretty obvious Jesus’ kingdom was not about swords and military revolution.
I think pacifism makes admirable sense of Jesus’ words when it may involve someone harming me. I think it perverts them when it may involve refusing to act while someone harms my children or loved ones. Blessed are the merciful, and all that.
Eric, perhaps we’ve never waged a by-the-book just war. But do you think no injustice has ever called for one?
I’m bowing out now. Discussions like this derail quickly and I don’t have the interest in argument like I did when I started in the blogosphere.
Plus, the talk of end times stuff is just weird.
Peace
For all of you who like to use the O.T. and God the Father using the nation of Israel to complete His work, I hope you follow all the Levitical laws and I hope you believe in and practice polygamy (having more than one wife).
I also hope you get to the part where they hoped for a messiah.
Then I hope you get to the part in the Gospel where Jesus helped the Samaritan man and do a little research of the historical and coultural context of that story.
Then for those of you who like Revelations so much and use it to fit into your idea, do a little research on that book.
I whole heartedly believe it is my duty as a follower of Jesus to love even the muslim extremist who wish to do me harm. I promise nothing takes the steam out of a fight more than someone not wanting to fight.
Shawn, I hate to break it to you, but without the OT Jesus is the Fullfillment of nothing. You can’t take the NT without the OT with it. Yes we live in an era of grace, but that doesn’t remove the relevance of events recorded in the bible ages before Christ came to earth.
Now picture this shawn. I see a muslim extremist he’s walking towards me screaming Death to the infidel with a bomb strapped to his chest. Now Its clear what his intentions are. Now God has gifted me with a Fire arm, a pistol perhaps, do I take aim and prevent him from detonating that weapon and harming others around me, or do I say well I’m supposed to love and then do nothing. The obligation to “love your enemy” does not absolve you from your right to self defense. BTW Jesus drove the Money changers out of the Temple with a WHIP! yeah, I bet they thought that was loving eh?
As Christians, the lost of life should never be amusing. We should never callously dismiss death as less than what it is: the complete and final separation from God or the complete and final restoration to God. We mourn the loss of innocent life. We pray for forgiveness for our pride and callousness. We hope in a better life here on Earth. We share the overwhelming all consuming love and grace of Christ. Our Saviour lives. Our gracious holy loving healing powerful King of all kings and nations lives. We do not pick up a sword because he has not commanded us to do so. We do not argue pridefully with Scripture because we are commanded not to do so. We do not judge those outside of the church because we are commanded not to do so. We love the poor and needy because we are commanded to do so. We love love love love love because we have been loved. No excuses. No arguments. We believe in a God who loves. We believe in a God who cherishes life, period. NOT JUST AMERICAN LIFE.
An interesting Perspective Rebekah, however, if your waiting around for God from on high to call us to arms you may be waiting a long time. I am not a believe in any “special” revelation taking place today. That pretty much ended with the apostles. What we can do is make sure that when we do get drawn into the fight that we are doing so for the right reasons, that we are doing our best to curtail the loss of civilian life as much as is practical. Like it or not Kings rule and they also are responsible for the common defense of their people. The people we are fighting in Iraq now are not the same people we fought during the invasion. This is an entirely different war, and it is a war we must win. Its tragic that some loss of life is inevitable in war, but to say that it is better to never pick up an arm is ludicrous. Do you believe we were wrong to take up arms to liberate Europe from the Nazis? That’s my feeling on this. WWII taught America we have to be aware of what is going on around the world. Now I’ll agree there are times where we’ve stuck our nose in and its debatable how much good we did (they are still squabbling over in the Balkans), but I think as a nation we’ve done a lot more good than we have done evil.
Jesus For President.
“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting…but my kingdom is not from the world.”
Jesus;John 18:36
the thoughts of man pale in comparison to the words of Christ …
and the latter three numbers are conservative. hundreds of allied soldiers should be added to the 2nd image. and interpretation varies…
we need to ask the question again and loudly: did we have to go to war?
thanks for the courage to post this.
fwiw: i posted some additional stats on my blog:
http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/george-bush-the-worst-president/
This numbers game is only “fair” if you include the 300,000 to 400,000 that Saddam has killed. How about 100,000 genocide–most conservative number available.
It is childish to ask now if we had to go to war–like asking should I have spilled milk or not. Once there, whether by brilliance or ignorance, we have to have integrity with our word.
War is terrible. Thats what this means. Question, should we be pacifists as Christians or not? Not saying we should not be, but there it is.
We’re all on a path to die. It’s the way we’re made. There is an expiration date. Somehow the choices we make—enlist in the military, support the terrorist organizations—can lead to the cause of death directly. Far too many other deaths seem needless—but it’s still the way of things in this life. (My boss currently has brain cancer and is given a bad prognosis—why her or the “innocents” in war? I trust that it is because God has a plan.)
My greatest concern is how then do we live? Did we make the best decisions with the information we had at the time? Did we stand for justice where possible? Did we honor our families and country? I find many “anti-war” attitudes naive. Every day, I wake up to a battle with an unseen enemy that wants me dead. The Bible says to fight that in the spiritual realm, and when it’s manifested in the natural dimension do we not fight there, too?