Going back to Shaun’s comment about the early Christians just becoming Christians and not taking on a further membership status, this was true very early on in the NT period, but they also only had one recognizable group of Christians in each city (putting aside the I am of Paul, I am of Appollos (sp?) controversy for a moment).  Paul could write to the church in Corinth and expect that what he wrote would be communicated to all the Christians in Corinth.  That is not the case today, and that (in my opinion) is where a concept of membership is meaningful.  If I am a member of a group of Christians (denomination/church group/whatever you want to call it), then communication will be happening between various parts of the body that share that same membership.  There are other reasons, but that’s a start.

Second, it seems to me that by the time a long period of catechesis was required before reception into the church that there were other groups that claimed to be Christian, but weren’t.  The gnostics were some of the most famous (e.g., daVinci Code), but the Marcionites were also founded before 150 AD.  Marcion and his followers claimed that the god of the OT was different than the God of the NT and made several other heretical claims while claiming that they were Christian.  In that sense, I think that membership quickly became an important part of the early church, too, as Christians tried to distinguish themselves from other groups claiming the same name.  How they constructed their ideas of membership is a discussion for another day.  The point is that very early on groups arose that challenged and stretched the definition of Christian beyond what any Protestant/Orthodox/Catholic Christian would accept today.

How do we live out our membership and make it more than just signing a piece of paper?  That’s an important question to address, because otherwise membership can be more problematic than useful.  However, I do think there is a place for the concept of membership in our era with the Biblical example of it making communication more practical and effective.

MB

I spend 12+ hours a day helping people and do most of my sermon work at home. Counciling people, going and bailing church goers out jail, helping people get into drug rehab, taking phone calls from people who are hurting, seeing widows whose husbands just died, visiting a dieing person in the hospital, marriage counseling for a couple in their 20’s, making sure our thanksgiving basket program has enough funding so we can feed the 500 people who count on us every thanksgiving, praying for and with people who are questioning God…going out with our evangelism team and telling people about God.

I work longer hours and take less vacations then anyone in any other profession I know….I’m not trying to be self-righteous, but I’m saying that a pastor’s job is not a simple as listening to some podcasts, reading and book and taking notes. And my job dosent end at 5:00PM. Do you think that after all that it’s not fair to say I am not worthy of being on payroll…

again I’m not trying to sing my own praises but I think you should look at more than just a few churches before you can say such things

I spend 12+ hours a day helping people and do most of my sermon work at home. Counciling people, going and bailing church goers out jail, helping people get into drug rehab, taking phone calls from people who are hurting, seeing widows whose husbands just died, visiting a dieing person in the hospital, marriage counseling for a couple in their 20’s, making sure our thanksgiving basket program has enough funding so we can feed the 500 people who count on us every thanksgiving, praying for and with people who are questioning God…going out with our evangelism team and telling people about God.

I work longer hours and take less vacations then anyone in any other profession I know….I’m not trying to be self-righteous, but I’m saying that a pastor’s job is not a simple as listening to some podcasts, reading and book and taking notes. And my job dosent end at 5:00PM. Do you think that after all that it’s not fair to say I am not worthy of being on payroll…

again I’m not trying to sing my own praises but I think you should look at more than just a few churches before you can say such things

I am really happy for everyones sake that you are trying to do such a thorough job of figuring this out as opposed to knee jerk reactions.

I’m curious about the dating of the information that you are getting some of your ideas (membership, spitting, ect.).

The thing is it is clear from the book of Acts that the requirement to join the Church was claiming to put your faith in Jesus and getting baptized. There was no such thing as a two year or two second catechism as a requirement. It was simply taken on faith that you meant it when you were baptized, despite the fact that the Apostles all knew not everyone was genuine. You were let in and allowed to remain until your conduct proved your confession inadequate. How can anyone dare to hold people to a higher standard than this?

It is also VERY important to note that if the Churches which were founded directly by the Apostles (who did grasp the truth correctly or at least most correctly)and their associates were a mess and got off track then there is little faith to be put into the idea that people hundreds of years later are any closer in practice to what the Apostles (or Jesus through them) intended that we are thousands of years later.

The “early” church is simply not early enough to be trusted and if we want to be like the original church, we can stop trying. We’re full of immoral behavior, bad theology, and man made practices already. Just like them.

It also strikes me that these discussions are somewhat the luxury (and challenge) of living in the time and place we do. I don’t think the early church or much of the world that I’ve seen is afforded that luxury (and challenge).  They just do it or they don’t survive.  They had their challenges, we have ours.  Not that their unity is perfect or automatic (I’ve still seen great struggles regarding church and how it looks in places like India and Mexico), but sometimes their circumstances clarify or simplify things.

The only thing that technically makes a cell church different from a church with small groups is that the idea behind a cell church is that growth happens through cells and relationships as opposed to at a Sunday service.  The celebration is for edification not to attract new members to the church.  I found this and still find this very appealing.  A lot of people don’t really understand the distinction, though.

As far as a pastor sitting behind closed doors until preaching a Sunday sermon, though, I’ve never known a pastor like that.  At all the churches I’ve been a part of, the pastor has a broad range of responsibilities.  Not only does he preach the sermon, but he also visits the sick, leads Bible study, disciples and mentors members of the church, etc.  Quite honestly, these duties are similar to what missionaries do once they’ve made contacts and started church planting.  I still hold that a pastor can be paid and that he is furthering kingdom work. I do have a question though, do Compassion employees raise their own support?  I don’t really understand how giving to them or giving a love offering to Shaun so he can tell others about Compassion is different.  Many pastors I know don’t make any excess money and some don’t have health insurance.  It’s not like they’re rolling in the riches!  Please keep in mind, however, my most extensive experience is with small churches. 

I absolutely agree that more than the people on staff have spirtual gifts.  I despise spiritual gifts surveys and tests.  I think a church staff should be kept as small as possible and that ideally you’ll have volunteers to handle most of the work of the church.  I think there’s a lot broken with the church, but I don’t think everything is broken.

I think things have gotten worse recently though.  I read Brant’s blog at times and he finds some of the most horrifying stuff.  There are definite serious problems going on.  Anyway, I’m done.

Well if you would like to know what rubs me wrong with the church it is a few things. A few things that some could argue could be changed and I agree. Here goes a list.

1) We are supposed to be a family. My experience is the Church is a family on Sunday (or anytime you have a service).

2) I have a hard time believing the only people in a congregation (say of 500) that have Spiritual Gifts are the payed staff members( I think that covers bases). A business model church does not design a service (which atleast it is appropriately named) to let the Holy Spirit freely work. I know if you are a staunch Calvinist this is easily argued against because the Spirit would do what He willed. So why not involved the whole “congregation” and let them use their Spiritual Gifts without a background check and “spiritual gifts test/survey.” If you wanna argue the background check then you obvioulsy do not know the people you go to church with, which only supports my point.

3)Be real…Life sucks sometimes and it is okay to let those around you know life sucks. In church we would put on these smiles and pretend everything was honky dory. This happen with my “perfect church family” who’s true identity was a work-a-holic mother and an extremely abusive father and kids who were just waiting to get as far away as they could. To be real to the point where I can say to someone “you know what dude, I really screwed up, I…” is a hard thing to do, it takes trust which you cannot build in a public building once a week.

4) I don’t care what you say, you don’t need a million dollar sound system, when you deny people who are willing to be missionaries and live in mud huts monthly support. I have seen this in every church I have ever been in and it pisses me off. It is litterally double dipping on their guilt to tithe, then we are going to have this person talk about “how you need to give more to them, because we spent to much of your money on our new sound system, but I sure sound wonderful from here don’t I? Praise the Lord…”

5)While we are on money, the only people I believe who should be paid are people truely furthering the Kingdom of God. I don’t believe a “pastor” who sits in an office behind a closed door all week to teach a message I can here any preach is furthering the Kingdom, in fact it is distracting us and making us lazy not to read the Bible ourselves. So why not spend out money on organizations(like compassion) or on missionaries willing to do work that the majority of us are not willing to do?

6) Sorry if I sound really angry, I am not, in fact I love the Church so much I am willing to try and help make a change for the better.