Thanks foe the reply and I think we are on the same page (though probably not the same word) which is what makes the body of Christ so cool.

I think that you can be overspending at $1 or $100 million dollars and that the bottom line is to do what you think glorifies Jesus.  Sometimes it is even choosing between two good things which is really hard.

Thanks for your ministry – I am pretty sure you played a show at our Tuesday night young adult “event” – here at Seacoast last year and I heard great reports that it was a good show…

Press on and I hope your little man feel better.

Shawn

btw- to answer your question – as experiences pastor I help shepherd anything that effects the Seacoast experience – this falls into the buckets of the weekend, web and word-of-mouth (i.e. marketing)

My 2 cents. I think many churches are doing what they feel is best to reach people in their communities. I hope that God uses the individuality of each church to meet the needs of specific types of people so that they can then be transformed and go from being served to serving. I think a lot of times we don’t trust God enough to let Him use methods we may not use ourselves.

I’d have to agree though that there is a danger when the church, as an organization, gets so big that the mortgage or the equipment begin to carry more weight than its purpose.

I’d love to add that I met and had conversations with people from mega-churches and churches of 1000 and under who are just trying to figure out how to organize, corral, funnel, flow or reduce the communication that is intended for their congregation or community.  I met people from many faith traditions who I would not consider “event churches” as defined above.  The people I met seemed to have big hearts, real problems, perceived limited budgets, and ever present deadlines.  I didn’t feel like this conference was not about making the big Sunday event bigger or better – it was about helping bring clarity to complexity.  (just speaking about some of the people I met) It seems that in the midst of everything that their church has chosen to be, they desire do their job in a way that honors God, helps people and advance Christ. 

Don’t know what I have said that might spark a response…but I’m eager for the conversation to continue.

Bet you didn’t count on this kind of conversation when you took your kids to church on Thursday night

Nope.  But I’m always up for it.  Thanks for joining it and explaining some of what’s being done to turn event churches (my word, not yours) around.  Your language and ideas sound more than a little Seth Godin-like.  Discovering the uniqueness of a product (in this case, a church): he calls this the “free prize inside” and products that are unique are called “purple cows.” Going as far as you can in the direction of your uniqueness: he calls this going to the edge.  Telling a story: he calls this telling a “lie” or allowing consumers to tell themselves one.

None of this is inherently evil of course but I do wonder when the marketing of church gets in the way of being church.  Does it?  When?  Not a question for you alone, Tim.  I’ve eaten up enough of your time and you’ve been very gracious with it.  The rest of you lurking: When, if ever, is marketing a church or the Church interfering with being a church or the Church?

I think Tim hit on one of my answers already: when a story is told that the church can’t live.  IN other words, when the marketing is a lie.  The sign out front says “Loving God, Loving people,” for instance, but people aren’t being loved, and, so, God isn’t being loved (Matthew 25).

So the answer to your last question is, “by creating a compelling story that is authentic and of which people can be a part.” Your last paragraph is ideal. I absolutely love it and think it truly represents Jesus. And I would love every church to be able to authentically be able to tell that story. The reality is that most cannot. But we can work, even in baby steps, to go that way. We recently worked with a church that is traditional, 150 years old, thought they were innovative because they had a contemporary service (amidst 3 traditional services) with a praise band. They told me they were distinctive because of their worship experience. It was nothing special. Instead we discovered they were distinctive because they had an incredible community presence. Unlike most churches they had a large percentage of people involved in “community betterment” occupations or volunteer roles including a battered women’s ministry, homeless outreach, envirnomental initiatives and other social justice issues. They were keeping it a secret (didn’t want to brag). What they didn’t realize is that they had a whole community out there wanting to be invited into their life of service. That was their story. They just needed to tell it.

Not every church has that kind of story to uncover. Most are pretty self-focussed and program oriented. So our mission goes further than to just articulate their unique story. The challenge is to go help lead them down the path to be truly missional – outward focused. It’s really easy to get cynical and give up.  The bottom line is we can’t write a story a church can’t live.

BTW, I appreciate the banter and the push back. I sense your heart in your last paragraph. You have a gift of music (my kids hide under a table if I sing). We have a gift for being able to capture a church’s unique DNA in a compelling story. Both are emotional.

Bet you didn’t count on this kind of conversation when you took your kids to church on Thursday night

AMEN.  Our church actually received a trophy and letter of commendation for # of baptisms for a church under a certain number of members.

What I’m hearing you say though is that it just sounds that way.  What you’re really doing then is teaching churches that the Good News has everything to do with a present kingdom, the reign of God in every way right now, the healing of the sick, feeding of the hungry, freeing of the slaves, ending of wars, sheltering the homeless, employing the poor, educating the unlearned, extending grace to the addict, adopting the orphan, teaching and encouraging and correcting the professed follower of Jesus, facilitating celebration and discussion and relationships, etc etc etc?  Is that right? How do you do that?

I feel the church that is totally about attracting people to their Sunday experience and their programs tends to isolate themselves. Someone wiser than me said its about the church’s sending capacity, not the seating capacity.

I don’t want to create dialog by selling you a direct mail piece. I want you to be Jesus out in your community.

And I hope you know as well, Tim, that my using your phrase was not a smack at your company or what you guys do.  The phrase itself seemed to sum up well what the conference’s exhibitors and the folks I overheard talking in my little corner of the building were about.  I hope everyone at missioncom, you included, doesn’t read more into this post than intended.  I’m getting the feeling a few folks have assumed hostility on my part that just isn’t there.

The comments, on the other hand, have admittedly gone in a more critical (as in critical thinking) direction for sure, but I don’t control that.  I go where they go and try to be a good boy while I’m there.

Thanks again for your two cents.

Curious, btw, what you mean by “The church has lost its dialogue with culture.” We’ve talked about this here before.  My belief is a bit Anabaptist I suppose: we can’t be anywhere but in culture, in the world, in dialogue with it.  The Amish are in it, “dialoging” with it, whether they want to be or not.  Dialog, as I understand the term, and presume you define it, is automatic and unavoidable.

If I’m in my front yard handing out popsicles to neighbor kids, throwing the ball with the boy next door, forgiving my enemy in the office, working ethically and selflessly, living simply, loving constantly, listening worshipfully, speaking kindly and slowly, giving easily, then am I not having a dialog with culture that images God as He is?  I’m not creating the dialogue, I am making it more centered on the divine. 

Our dialog never stops and I cringe a little when we church leaders begin saying that dialog’s very existence hinges on the excellence of our buildings, web sites, marketing, sermons, music etc.  This leads folks, I fear, to think they, because they’re without these professional tools and togetherness, are incapable of having a transforming effect on the world around them, of being useful, of being in dialog.

So, I’m curious what you mean by the phrase, and how we guard against my fear becoming a reality.  I’d love an expert’s opinion and you don’t get more expert on this subject than you, Tim.  Thanks for joining the conversation.