Comments on: Derek Webb Doesn’t Like It http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/ Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:09:52 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Brenda http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15938 Brenda Thu, 17 May 2007 18:11:25 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15938 <p>I get bugged by the “bad art” label that Derek and others refer to when speaking of CCM.  While I agree with many of the arguments for such a label, I also realize that many of the CCM songs are nothing but scripture put to music.  Is the “bad art” in this case the melody alone?  That’s a matter of opinion.  And believe it or not, God can actually still use it to reach folks from time to time!  What I find much more troubling is the behavior of so many artists when they AREN’T on stage.  I’ve spent some time with Derek (as a promoter) and found him to be very nice and respectful.  I have also spent time with several CCM artists who were downright rude and disrespectful.  As believers, we are commanded to “BE HOLY.” It’s not a suggestion.  It’s not only when you’re trying to sell a CD.  It’s not just when it’s convenient or expected to do so.  So whether an artist (or any one else) is in a club, in church, on CCM radio or wherever, if they claim the name of Christ, they’d best act like it. </p> I get bugged by the “bad art” label that Derek and others refer to when speaking of CCM.  While I agree with many of the arguments for such a label, I also realize that many of the CCM songs are nothing but scripture put to music.  Is the “bad art” in this case the melody alone?  That’s a matter of opinion.  And believe it or not, God can actually still use it to reach folks from time to time!  What I find much more troubling is the behavior of so many artists when they AREN’T on stage.  I’ve spent some time with Derek (as a promoter) and found him to be very nice and respectful.  I have also spent time with several CCM artists who were downright rude and disrespectful.  As believers, we are commanded to “BE HOLY.” It’s not a suggestion.  It’s not only when you’re trying to sell a CD.  It’s not just when it’s convenient or expected to do so.  So whether an artist (or any one else) is in a club, in church, on CCM radio or wherever, if they claim the name of Christ, they’d best act like it.

]]> By: Matthew Nashville, TN http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15937 Matthew Nashville, TN Thu, 17 May 2007 16:24:58 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15937 <p>I agree with you Shaun...regarding the Great Comission...it was a bit of a leading question <img src="http://www.shaungroves.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" width="19" height="19" alt="smile" style="border:0;" /> Ryan, I believe it is worth the effort...Acutally, I don’t believe that the industry can survive the way many would like to see it do so if it does not change at least to a certain degree...Can it be changed? I feel it would take many industry leaders getting together and making a conscious choice, a team effort, to try and do so...and others who are more experienced in the industry than myself would have to comment on the likelihood of that happening....good questions <img src="http://www.shaungroves.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" width="19" height="19" alt="smile" style="border:0;" /> </p> I agree with you Shaun…regarding the Great Comission…it was a bit of a leading question smile Ryan, I believe it is worth the effort…Acutally, I don’t believe that the industry can survive the way many would like to see it do so if it does not change at least to a certain degree…Can it be changed? I feel it would take many industry leaders getting together and making a conscious choice, a team effort, to try and do so…and others who are more experienced in the industry than myself would have to comment on the likelihood of that happening….good questions smile

]]> By: Shaun Groves http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15936 Shaun Groves Thu, 17 May 2007 15:54:45 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15936 <p><i>Do the artists and the songwriters have just as much of an obligation to the Great Commission as the rest of the body of Christ?</i> </p> <p> My opinion?  Yes. </p> <p> <i>Are they fulfilling all of their role as artists/Christians to only speak just to the church?</i> <br /> To the same extent that a pastor fulfills his role as a Christian by speaking in a church every Sunday. </p> <p> The life of a pastor and the life of an artist is not only what we see on a stage. </p> Do the artists and the songwriters have just as much of an obligation to the Great Commission as the rest of the body of Christ?

My opinion?  Yes.

Are they fulfilling all of their role as artists/Christians to only speak just to the church?

To the same extent that a pastor fulfills his role as a Christian by speaking in a church every Sunday.

The life of a pastor and the life of an artist is not only what we see on a stage.

]]> By: Ryan G http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15935 Ryan G Thu, 17 May 2007 15:44:12 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15935 <p>Hey Matthew, good question about what it <i>should be</i> about.  I was remarking on what it <i>is</i>.  </p> <p> Can we change what it is?  Is the effort required to change it worth it? </p> <p> Or should we just work with it? </p> <p> Can you make that decision as an artist who wants to pay his bills via his craft without considering how it affects your backpocket? </p> Hey Matthew, good question about what it should be about.  I was remarking on what it is. 

Can we change what it is?  Is the effort required to change it worth it?

Or should we just work with it?

Can you make that decision as an artist who wants to pay his bills via his craft without considering how it affects your backpocket?

]]> By: Matthew Nashville, TN http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15934 Matthew Nashville, TN Thu, 17 May 2007 15:29:46 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15934 <p>Ryan G, just to try and provoke some thought and discussion, I’m not criticizing your comment at all...is music made by Christians for Christians what Christian music should be solely about? Do the artists and the songwriters have just as much of an obligation to the Great Commission as the rest of the body of Christ? Are they fulfilling all of their role as artists/Christians to only speak just to the church? In essence, is the role of a Christian artist to encourage and build up the body to do God’s work, or to be out there with the body on the front lines doing the work? To me, it should be both.... </p> Ryan G, just to try and provoke some thought and discussion, I’m not criticizing your comment at all…is music made by Christians for Christians what Christian music should be solely about? Do the artists and the songwriters have just as much of an obligation to the Great Commission as the rest of the body of Christ? Are they fulfilling all of their role as artists/Christians to only speak just to the church? In essence, is the role of a Christian artist to encourage and build up the body to do God’s work, or to be out there with the body on the front lines doing the work? To me, it should be both….

]]> By: Shaun Groves http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15933 Shaun Groves Thu, 17 May 2007 15:07:16 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15933 <p><i>If he doesn’t want to be labeled as a “Christian” artist, why did he sign to a Christian label?</i> </p> <p> I asked him in the upcoming podcast (probably won’t make episode one though) and his answer surprised me.  The better question is now that his deal is up with INO, what will he do next.  I asked that too.  You’ll just have to wait to find out. </p> If he doesn’t want to be labeled as a “Christian” artist, why did he sign to a Christian label?

I asked him in the upcoming podcast (probably won’t make episode one though) and his answer surprised me.  The better question is now that his deal is up with INO, what will he do next.  I asked that too.  You’ll just have to wait to find out.

]]> By: Matthew Nashville, TN http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15932 Matthew Nashville, TN Thu, 17 May 2007 15:05:16 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15932 <p>First of all, I believe the entire Derek Webb “thing” that’s been going on is very interesting...discussions like this one (and interviews like this one of Derek’s) I believe help further a much needed dialogue about the content of the music “Christian” record companies produce and sell...so, here’s my thoughts… </p> <p> I believe Derek’s statement regarding bad art being created under the heading of “Christian art”, and the effect that can have on people ( ie possibly turning them away from Jesus) is true to an extent...My question to Derek would be is what makes the art “bad”? If we are talking about music, is it the style of music itself, or is it that they do not do that particular style well? For example, there are several styles under the heading of Gospel music that I do not care for...I’m sorry if I offend anyone, but I don’t like to listen to guys like Dino go up and down the piano, or many of the preachy type gospel singers you’ll find on TBN most of the day on tv...But it’s not that they don’t do the style well...they probably do it fine...its the whole style itself, very glitzy and over-the-top, that just gets me like nails on a chalkboard...and what makes it bad art to me is that it seems to be very empty spiritually...it feels like it is all for show, and God is getting missed amongst all the pomp and circumstance...and I know that type of stuff turns people off all the time because the image of this stuff is on tv non-stop, making it synonymous with “Christian” music....So, is the music “bad” art because the style is outdated and old hat, or do they do the style badly? I would be interested in who Derek thinks creates “bad” Christian art....it would narrow the conversation quite a bit...not just music, but other art forms as well...I’m sure he won’t just come out and say who, but it would be interesting I think… </p> <p> As for Derek not wanting to be marketed based on his world-view...To me, it’s all about this...The music industry to me, no matter the genre, is very unforgiving to many artists who try and change their persona or revamp their image...In most cases, for better or worse, artists get one chance to define the image and the music ( and moreover the genre) the public will identify them with...Like it or not, the listening public will form an image of who you are as an artist...For artists who are in the Christian market I believe this is doubled..(Now, you could get into a completely different conversation about genres, and who creates them, the industry or people, but that’s another topic - its very related to this conversation, but still another topic)...Derek chose to be a member of Caedmon’s Call...that was his choice to make...they had a good deal of success...and in an industry that loves to catergorize, Derek got “labeled” ( yes, a dirty word I know) as a Christian artist...This is a lesson to me, for people who want to get into the music industry, to take very seriously the choices they make about the kind of artist/singer/songwriter they want to be and the career choices they make regarding signing on labels, joining bands, and so forth...becasue once its out there, that’s it...its out of your hands then, and into the public’s hands...like it or not, it’s the truth… I don’t feel like Derek has a problem with being known as a Christian artist, I think he has a problem with the definition of who and what a Christian artist is supposed to be...does anyone feel me on this? I’ll admit that the statement “I’m first a Christian, like i can’t just be an artist” rubs me the wrong way, on paper, but maybe its supposed to..maybe it should… </p> <p> Derek’s comments take my mind to this conversation: Is the Christian music industry, and listeners of all music, ever going to be okay with someone identifying himself/herself as a Christian, and allow them to make music and create songs that are not about God specifically?...I’m not saying that the songs don’t reflect Christian values or ideals, but that the songs aren’t specifically about God or Jesus Christ...and their relationship to Him and how it affects their lives...To me, that’s almost the very definition of what Christian music artists have become known for...they have become known for taking their relationship with God and putting that into a musical form, telling us what that relationship is like and how it affects their life and how they see the world they live in within the context of being a child of God...Can that definition be allowed to be broadened by the music industry, listeners and business types alike? should it be? very interesting questions to me...and I see the pros and cons on both sides of it, which we can go into if someone wants to...what do you think Shaun? </p> <p> anyways, i’ve gone on long enough...but this conversation interests me so much...it just begs to be talked about to me....oh and lastly, churches can be good or bad concert venues depending on who you are trying to reach… Who is Derek trying to reach with his music? <br /> Ok, I’m out...I hope we continue to talk about this… </p> First of all, I believe the entire Derek Webb “thing” that’s been going on is very interesting…discussions like this one (and interviews like this one of Derek’s) I believe help further a much needed dialogue about the content of the music “Christian” record companies produce and sell…so, here’s my thoughts…

I believe Derek’s statement regarding bad art being created under the heading of “Christian art”, and the effect that can have on people ( ie possibly turning them away from Jesus) is true to an extent…My question to Derek would be is what makes the art “bad”? If we are talking about music, is it the style of music itself, or is it that they do not do that particular style well? For example, there are several styles under the heading of Gospel music that I do not care for…I’m sorry if I offend anyone, but I don’t like to listen to guys like Dino go up and down the piano, or many of the preachy type gospel singers you’ll find on TBN most of the day on tv…But it’s not that they don’t do the style well…they probably do it fine…its the whole style itself, very glitzy and over-the-top, that just gets me like nails on a chalkboard…and what makes it bad art to me is that it seems to be very empty spiritually…it feels like it is all for show, and God is getting missed amongst all the pomp and circumstance…and I know that type of stuff turns people off all the time because the image of this stuff is on tv non-stop, making it synonymous with “Christian” music….So, is the music “bad” art because the style is outdated and old hat, or do they do the style badly? I would be interested in who Derek thinks creates “bad” Christian art….it would narrow the conversation quite a bit…not just music, but other art forms as well…I’m sure he won’t just come out and say who, but it would be interesting I think…

As for Derek not wanting to be marketed based on his world-view…To me, it’s all about this…The music industry to me, no matter the genre, is very unforgiving to many artists who try and change their persona or revamp their image…In most cases, for better or worse, artists get one chance to define the image and the music ( and moreover the genre) the public will identify them with…Like it or not, the listening public will form an image of who you are as an artist…For artists who are in the Christian market I believe this is doubled..(Now, you could get into a completely different conversation about genres, and who creates them, the industry or people, but that’s another topic – its very related to this conversation, but still another topic)…Derek chose to be a member of Caedmon’s Call…that was his choice to make…they had a good deal of success…and in an industry that loves to catergorize, Derek got “labeled” ( yes, a dirty word I know) as a Christian artist…This is a lesson to me, for people who want to get into the music industry, to take very seriously the choices they make about the kind of artist/singer/songwriter they want to be and the career choices they make regarding signing on labels, joining bands, and so forth…becasue once its out there, that’s it…its out of your hands then, and into the public’s hands…like it or not, it’s the truth… I don’t feel like Derek has a problem with being known as a Christian artist, I think he has a problem with the definition of who and what a Christian artist is supposed to be…does anyone feel me on this? I’ll admit that the statement “I’m first a Christian, like i can’t just be an artist” rubs me the wrong way, on paper, but maybe its supposed to..maybe it should…

Derek’s comments take my mind to this conversation: Is the Christian music industry, and listeners of all music, ever going to be okay with someone identifying himself/herself as a Christian, and allow them to make music and create songs that are not about God specifically?…I’m not saying that the songs don’t reflect Christian values or ideals, but that the songs aren’t specifically about God or Jesus Christ…and their relationship to Him and how it affects their lives…To me, that’s almost the very definition of what Christian music artists have become known for…they have become known for taking their relationship with God and putting that into a musical form, telling us what that relationship is like and how it affects their life and how they see the world they live in within the context of being a child of God…Can that definition be allowed to be broadened by the music industry, listeners and business types alike? should it be? very interesting questions to me…and I see the pros and cons on both sides of it, which we can go into if someone wants to…what do you think Shaun?

anyways, i’ve gone on long enough…but this conversation interests me so much…it just begs to be talked about to me….oh and lastly, churches can be good or bad concert venues depending on who you are trying to reach… Who is Derek trying to reach with his music?

Ok, I’m out…I hope we continue to talk about this…

]]> By: Ryan G http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15931 Ryan G Thu, 17 May 2007 14:22:02 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15931 <p>I think we’re all in agreement that Christian music is made by Christians and for Christians. </p> <p> Would the easiest way for Derek to overcome this be to create music under a different name or label? </p> I think we’re all in agreement that Christian music is made by Christians and for Christians.

Would the easiest way for Derek to overcome this be to create music under a different name or label?

]]> By: Sean w/o an H http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15930 Sean w/o an H Thu, 17 May 2007 13:39:58 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15930 <p>Just an interesting side note to this conversation… Andy Osenga shared a few thoughts on his blog a while back on this issue (and I agree ... maybe it’s time for DW to pick up the blogging thing as well), so I thought I’d share the links here… </p> <p> <a href="http://www.andrewosenga.com/blog/2007/02/20/no-mans-land/" rel="nofollow">http://www.andrewosenga.com/blog/2007/02/20/no-mans-land/</a> </p> <p> <a href="http://www.andrewosenga.com/blog/2007/02/22/no-mans-land-part-2/" rel="nofollow">http://www.andrewosenga.com/blog/2007/02/22/no-mans-land-part-2/</a> </p> <p> I wonder if the trouble Derek’s experiencing is similar to what Andy talks about… about being stuck somewhere in between, already too “Christian” [by label] to really impact outside the church but often too “radical” to be listened to inside it. The songs “Zeroes and Ones” and “Name” come to mind. I think the struggle to redefine “Christian” in this sense gets harder because the industry consistently produces more reasons to reaffirm the old definitions… I’m not sure what else to add to the discussion, but I hope this hels. </p> Just an interesting side note to this conversation… Andy Osenga shared a few thoughts on his blog a while back on this issue (and I agree … maybe it’s time for DW to pick up the blogging thing as well), so I thought I’d share the links here…

http://www.andrewosenga.com/blog/2007/02/20/no-mans-land/

http://www.andrewosenga.com/blog/2007/02/22/no-mans-land-part-2/

I wonder if the trouble Derek’s experiencing is similar to what Andy talks about… about being stuck somewhere in between, already too “Christian” [by label] to really impact outside the church but often too “radical” to be listened to inside it. The songs “Zeroes and Ones” and “Name” come to mind. I think the struggle to redefine “Christian” in this sense gets harder because the industry consistently produces more reasons to reaffirm the old definitions… I’m not sure what else to add to the discussion, but I hope this hels.

]]> By: euphrony http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15929 euphrony Thu, 17 May 2007 12:40:27 +0000 http://shaungroves.com/2007/05/derek-webb-doesnt-like-it/#comment-15929 <p>We humans have a fascination with taxonomy - we <i>love</i> to name things.  And I think God started this when He paraded the animals in front of Adam.  When we place a name on something, we feel we have a better grasp of just what it is and what it does and what it’s for.  Sure, this also leads to characterizations of groups that are not necessarily true, and that can be bad; but in the end naming things helps us more than it hurts.  It seems that when a person or people begin shirking a name they’ve worn, it is because they feel they’ve been misunderstood or misclassified, or perhaps that the name no longer carries the same connotation as when they first wore it.  It seems that is where Derek Webb is, be it a good or a bad thing. </p> <p> The difference here, the hot button, is that the name he seems to be uncomfortable with is Christian.  Yes, there are many who tarnish the name of God, but would it not be better to work to ensure the name “Christian” be seen as it should be and not as it sometimes is?  No, you don’t have to go around wearing all the “holy” paraphernalia - the “Christian” jeans, shirts, bracelets, and drink the “Christian” energy drink - or singing / writing / painting / etc. God in every word.  I do think, though, that I’ve seen some go too far in absolutely refusing to talk about their faith, or let someone call them Christian, to protect their ability to sell in a secular market. </p> <p> I don’t think Derek Webb is doing that - just a connected side topic to his comments.  But names are not bad, per se; we must work to present a good picture of the name Christian, and thus an image of Jehovah, to the world.  That’s what we are called to do.  Not allowing others to besmirch His name through selfish actions in the guise of religion - our light must be, <i>is</i>, stronger than their darkness. </p> <p> Stepping off the soapbox, now.  Ramble over. </p> We humans have a fascination with taxonomy – we love to name things.  And I think God started this when He paraded the animals in front of Adam.  When we place a name on something, we feel we have a better grasp of just what it is and what it does and what it’s for.  Sure, this also leads to characterizations of groups that are not necessarily true, and that can be bad; but in the end naming things helps us more than it hurts.  It seems that when a person or people begin shirking a name they’ve worn, it is because they feel they’ve been misunderstood or misclassified, or perhaps that the name no longer carries the same connotation as when they first wore it.  It seems that is where Derek Webb is, be it a good or a bad thing.

The difference here, the hot button, is that the name he seems to be uncomfortable with is Christian.  Yes, there are many who tarnish the name of God, but would it not be better to work to ensure the name “Christian” be seen as it should be and not as it sometimes is?  No, you don’t have to go around wearing all the “holy” paraphernalia – the “Christian” jeans, shirts, bracelets, and drink the “Christian” energy drink – or singing / writing / painting / etc. God in every word.  I do think, though, that I’ve seen some go too far in absolutely refusing to talk about their faith, or let someone call them Christian, to protect their ability to sell in a secular market.

I don’t think Derek Webb is doing that – just a connected side topic to his comments.  But names are not bad, per se; we must work to present a good picture of the name Christian, and thus an image of Jehovah, to the world.  That’s what we are called to do.  Not allowing others to besmirch His name through selfish actions in the guise of religion – our light must be, is, stronger than their darkness.

Stepping off the soapbox, now.  Ramble over.

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